M109-52 SPH

[Oldman1]

@F-22Raptor @gambit @jhungary

They have been testing it, and will continue to test it next year. I hope they get rid of the manual priming and lanyard, it would reduce the time significantly.

M109-52 Self-Propelled Howitzer

BAE Systems upgrades the lethality of the latest generation M109 Self-Propelled Howitzer (SPH) by integrating the proven Rheinmetall L52 155mm, 52-caliber cannon system. Merging these two highly capable artillery systems, the M109-52 SPH provides the optimal balance between lethality, system...

www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems upgrades the lethality of the latest generation M109 Self-Propelled Howitzer (SPH) by integrating the proven Rheinmetall L52 155mm, 52-caliber cannon system. Merging these two highly capable artillery systems, the M109-52 SPH provides the optimal balance between lethality, system maturity, weight, and reliability.

K9a1 Thunder SPG.

 

[jhungary]

@F-22Raptor @gambit @jhungary

They have been testing it, and will continue to test it next year. I hope they get rid of the manual priming and lanyard, it would reduce the time significantly.

M109-52 Self-Propelled Howitzer

BAE Systems upgrades the lethality of the latest generation M109 Self-Propelled Howitzer (SPH) by integrating the proven Rheinmetall L52 155mm, 52-caliber cannon system. Merging these two highly capable artillery systems, the M109-52 SPH provides the optimal balance between lethality, system...

www.baesystems.com

BAE Systems upgrades the lethality of the latest generation M109 Self-Propelled Howitzer (SPH) by integrating the proven Rheinmetall L52 155mm, 52-caliber cannon system. Merging these two highly capable artillery systems, the M109-52 SPH provides the optimal balance between lethality, system maturity, weight, and reliability.

K9a1 Thunder SPG.

To be honest, I don't know why they still bothered with M109 chassis. They should just drop it and put that gun on a wheeled chassis like Archer or Ceasar, and it's not like they don't have suitable wheeled chassis to put that on, I mean, LAV, ASLAV (Which is joint Canadian-Australian) or Stryker.

Modern SPG should be focus on speed and maneuverability, both of which M109, a tracked platform lack, I mean, even Ukraine has their truck based SPG, why we still stick with tracked platform is really beyond me......

 

[Oldman1]

To be honest, I don't know why they still bothered with M109 chassis. They should just drop it and put that gun on a wheeled chassis like Archer or Ceasar, and it's not like they don't have suitable wheeled chassis to put that on, I mean, LAV, ASLAV (Which is joint Canadian-Australian) or Stryker.

Modern SPG should be focus on speed and maneuverability, both of which M109, a tracked platform lack, I mean, even Ukraine has their truck based SPG, why we still stick with tracked platform is really beyond me......

BAE presented something that you suggested to the U.S. Army on an Oskosh 8x8 chassis. Maybe its the tracks vs wheel artillery debate or just prefer to keep using the same platform thats been reliable and easy to upgrade.

 

[Georg]

To be honest, I don't know why they still bothered with M109 chassis. They should just drop it and put that gun on a wheeled chassis like Archer or Ceasar, and it's not like they don't have suitable wheeled chassis to put that on, I mean, LAV, ASLAV (Which is joint Canadian-Australian) or Stryker.

Modern SPG should be focus on speed and maneuverability, both of which M109, a tracked platform lack, I mean, even Ukraine has their truck based SPG, why we still stick with tracked platform is really beyond me......

ever looked at the mud season in many areas of the world and you really ask why they stick to tracked Arty...seriously? I have seen Archer having trouble on minimum mud to get around a curve... the more heavy rear simple pushed the ligther front with the steering straigth forward
Next point is a tracked platform is always a more stable fireing platform than a wheeled ...that is important if you want accuratly fast 4 to 5 rounds fired... and of course it carry more rounds... Archer 21rounds ... PzH2000 60rounds

 

[LegionnairE]

ever looked at the mud season in many areas of the world and you really ask why they stick to tracked Arty...seriously? I have seen Archer having trouble on minimum mud to get around a curve... the more heavy rear simple pushed the ligther front with the steering straigth forward
Next point is a tracked platform is always a more stable fireing platform than a wheeled ...that is important if you want accuratly fast 4 to 5 rounds fired... and of course it carry more rounds... Archer 21rounds ... PzH2000 60rounds

I heard that PzH 2000 was having some problems with too much wear & tear in Ukraine. That's something that may have to be improved. So I understand why the americans might want to stick with something battle proven. But it's just too old and, too limited at this point just let it die.


I'm very happy with what we have, Turkish T-155s were heavily used in conflicts in Iraq and Syria and they always prefromed great.

 

[Goritoes]

@jhungary @gambit in modern combat/warfare, specifically Asymmetrical warfare how effective SPH's are ?

 

[CLUMSY]

To be honest, I don't know why they still bothered with M109 chassis. They should just drop it and put that gun on a wheeled chassis like Archer or Ceasar, and it's not like they don't have suitable wheeled chassis to put that on, I mean, LAV, ASLAV (Which is joint Canadian-Australian) or Stryker.

Modern SPG should be focus on speed and maneuverability, both of which M109, a tracked platform lack, I mean, even Ukraine has their truck based SPG, why we still stick with tracked platform is really beyond me......

Tracked platforms still have certain advantages

 

[jhungary]

ever looked at the mud season in many areas of the world and you really ask why they stick to tracked Arty...seriously? I have seen Archer having trouble on minimum mud to get around a curve... the more heavy rear simple pushed the ligther front with the steering straigth forward
Next point is a tracked platform is always a more stable fireing platform than a wheeled ...that is important if you want accuratly fast 4 to 5 rounds fired... and of course it carry more rounds... Archer 21rounds ... PzH2000 60rounds

Well, I have seen a 70 tons Abrams got stuck in the mud, given the right mud-water ratio, it can jam up everything. You have no idea how many times and how much time I and other crew have to get down dirty to swipe mud out of sprocket and Thead

On the other hand, SPG is just like any land equipment, you are only as good as you can be resupply, which mean there will be a time when you have to come out of woodwork and resupply, otherwise you will be stuck in a different way since those supply truck aren't going to get to you.

And finally, with Electonic stability measure as well as target and control, wheeled gun are probably just as accurate if not more accurate than track chassis. Given the weight distribution and the suspension.

 

[jhungary]

@jhungary @gambit in modern combat/warfare, specifically Asymmetrical warfare how effective SPH's are ?

depends on how you use them, the older or more traditional view is that they are an added-on firepower, literally a gun that you can move with your armor and mechanised and deploy with them, so you can disrupt your enemy rear while your frontline armor smashing your enemy line without needing to wait for these gun deployment, which otherwise you would have to if you are using towed artillery. This is the hard and loud approach, we used to refer to it as Heavy Metal approach.

War in Ukraine have developed a new function for SPG, which focus on shoot and scoop, think of it like airborne artillery, you show up, fire on your target and then disappear, due to the extreme imbalance of forces between Ukraine and Russia, if your SPG is accurate enough, then you can sneak in a single or pair of SPG and get rounds on target without warning, it's no more as loud as a truck, you can blend it into regular traffic, which mean you can do all I said before without armor cover,

 

[Georg]

I heard that PzH 2000 was having some problems with too much wear & tear in Ukraine. That's something that may have to be improved. So I understand why the americans might want to stick with something battle proven. But it's just too old and, too limited at this point just let it die.


I'm very happy with what we have, Turkish T-155s were heavily used in conflicts in Iraq and Syria and they always prefromed great.

View attachment 964354

the early problems of PzH2000 were 100% wrong use by Ukraine Forces... the leading development engineer of the PzH2000 pointed that out clearly... the loading system of the PzH2000 is air pressure powered.. the system was designed to deliver a fire order and relocate ..this relocate time allowed the air compressors system to cool down... the Ukraine simple stand at a point and were contiuesly fireing at maximum speed non stop... air compressor got real hot and the sealing gave up leading to loading problems...that was the only problem and that is fixed since over a year. The PzH is extrem reliable and according to Ukraine the most accurate and long range system they have avaible

Well, I have seen a 70 tons Abrams got stuck in the mud, given the right mud-water ratio, it can jam up everything. You have no idea how many times and how much time I and other crew have to get down dirty to swipe mud out of sprocket and Thead

On the other hand, SPG is just like any land equipment, you are only as good as you can be resupply, which mean there will be a time when you have to come out of woodwork and resupply, otherwise you will be stuck in a different way since those supply truck aren't going to get to you.

And finally, with Electonic stability measure as well as target and control, wheeled gun are probably just as accurate if not more accurate than track chassis. Given the weight distribution and the suspension.

so you really belive that a wheeled howitzer can go anywere near as a 70to M1 befor it get stuck in mud?
Reading your comments only show that you have absolut zerro clue about Arty systems

 

[Georg]

depends on how you use them, the older or more traditional view is that they are an added-on firepower, literally a gun that you can move with your armor and mechanised and deploy with them, so you can disrupt your enemy rear while your frontline armor smashing your enemy line without needing to wait for these gun deployment, which otherwise you would have to if you are using towed artillery. This is the hard and loud approach, we used to refer to it as Heavy Metal approach.

War in Ukraine have developed a new function for SPG, which focus on shoot and scoop, think of it like airborne artillery, you show up, fire on your target and then disappear, due to the extreme imbalance of forces between Ukraine and Russia, if your SPG is accurate enough, then you can sneak in a single or pair of SPG and get rounds on target without warning, it's no more as loud as a truck, you can blend it into regular traffic, which mean you can do all I said before without armor cover,

sorry I have to laugh abput your naive comments...
shoot and scoop is what the PzH2000 was designed for... rapid drive into a fireposition ...reciving real time target data on the way to fireposition ...stop after 30s the first round is fired , 40s after stop the third shell is on the way and PzH is moving again ...thats nothing developt during Ukraine war... Thats what the PzH2000 was designed to do 25years ago.
Regular traffic on a front line... in what universum do you life????????????

 

[jhungary]

sorry I have to laugh abput your naive comments...
shoot and scoop is what the PzH2000 was designed for... rapid drive into a fireposition ...reciving real time target data on the way to fireposition ...stop after 30s the first round is fired , 40s after stop the third shell is on the way and PzH is moving again ...thats nothing developt during Ukraine war... Thats what the PzH2000 was designed to do 25years ago.
Regular traffic on a front line... in what universum do you life????????????

so you really belive that a wheeled howitzer can go anywere near as a 70to M1 befor it get stuck in mud?
Reading your comments only show that you have absolut zerro clue about Arty systems

Well, I am a train tanker, trained with both M1 Abrams and M2 Bradley and I rode in combat in the latter.

If you think I have zero clue about artillery, then most likely you never saw shit in combat.

Most log pack require you to rendezvous with your log train on either MSR or ASR. You can try to crave an emergency LZ to receive log train from chopper, but this is usually flown upon, ESPECIALLY so when you don't have infantry support, which most western armor usually goes.

Artillery system, especially for tracked platform, is to attached to us and go where we go and provide supporting fire, I don't know in what way or how or in which universe you will try to single up a 40 tons tracked SPG and do shoot and scoop without Armor support, I can't speak for all of NATO, but no one in the US Army will use M109 single up and do shoot and scoop.

But hey, you think what you want to think.

 

[Goritoes]

depends on how you use them, the older or more traditional view is that they are an added-on firepower, literally a gun that you can move with your armor and mechanised and deploy with them, so you can disrupt your enemy rear while your frontline armor smashing your enemy line without needing to wait for these gun deployment, which otherwise you would have to if you are using towed artillery. This is the hard and loud approach, we used to refer to it as Heavy Metal approach.

War in Ukraine have developed a new function for SPG, which focus on shoot and scoop, think of it like airborne artillery, you show up, fire on your target and then disappear, due to the extreme imbalance of forces between Ukraine and Russia, if your SPG is accurate enough, then you can sneak in a single or pair of SPG and get rounds on target without warning, it's no more as loud as a truck, you can blend it into regular traffic, which mean you can do all I said before without armor cover,

But with the advancement of ATGM's and Drones, they despite been mobile becomes easy targets, I wonder if adding some sort of internal low range/Altitude defense system will help ? but it might look weird on a SPH.

 

[jhungary]

But with the advancement of ATGM's and Drones, they despite been mobile becomes easy targets, I wonder if adding some sort of internal low range/Altitude defense system will help ? but it might look weird on a SPH.

That's why you need a truck platform. That allowed an easy escape simply because mobility is your best defence.

We are not talking about running a SPG into enemy territories, that's suicide without armor support, the issue here is with relative adequate Drone cover and GS-36 like Radar, you can almost always able to pinpoint where your fire is from within minute and send out response timely, which mean it would be utmost important to put distant between you and your enemy once you fired that big gun. And that is something a tracked platform can't do.

You can try to armor up a big target like a M109, but eventually something will get thru. But if you leave before you are spotted, they can't shoot what is not there.

 

[Georg]

Well, I am a train tanker, trained with both M1 Abrams and M2 Bradley and I rode in combat in the latter.

If you think I have zero clue about artillery, then most likely you never saw shit in combat.

Most log pack require you to rendezvous with your log train on either MSR or ASR. You can try to crave an emergency LZ to receive log train from chopper, but this is usually flown upon, ESPECIALLY so when you don't have infantry support, which most western armor usually goes.

Artillery system, especially for tracked platform, is to attached to us and go where we go and provide supporting fire, I don't know in what way or how or in which universe you will try to single up a 40 tons tracked SPG and do shoot and scoop without Armor support, I can't speak for all of NATO, but no one in the US Army will use M109 single up and do shoot and scoop.

But hey, you think what you want to think.

useing the slow *** M109 for shoot and scoop made my day....
The time it takes for a M109 to setup and start its fire mission Arty systems like Karb, Pzh2000 or K9 already leaving the position after 5 shells delivered... so you think you are the only tanker on this forum... sorry to say that you are not Leo2 4./33 here... looks like your Army should put more effort into training and eductaion