M1 trials in Pakistan

[Inception-06]

Try harder next time mate, I have been around for years on forums that helps me smell familiar tones

A selam a little bit off Topic, but I WILL ASK AGAIN; WHAT is the name of the Tank in pakistan Army, which has a canon of 105 mm and is still in service ?

I need this infromation, because I want write a article about this Tank and its service in pakistan Army for PDF, seems the most unknown Tank in PDF, same goes for the T-85IIMP you know the status of this both Tanks, did both get the Al-zarar upgrade ? what is their main task compared with the T-80UD and AlKhalid i? Thx !

I am asking you because, your post have give us PDF memebersthe highest quality of knowledge in armoured warfare !

 

[LeGenD]

it failed in pakistan which is a FACT, no matter how much you blabber about your M1 fantasies. Keep sharing all the improvements GDLS has done over the years but Pakistan never ordered it nor showed any interest, even during mushy's tenure it was offered again along with the block 52s and M-109A5 self propelled artillery but was rejected.

Get over it mate, its now history.

Peace

My M1 fantasies?

I just want to ascertain the truth about the trials in Pakistan (preferably both sides of the story; Pakistani and American). It seems that I am out of luck. But thanks for your contribution.

Yes, the event (in question) is history now. But;

Q 1. Why mention it?
Q 2. Why rely upon it?
Q 3. People do not pay attention to newer developments?

Whenever an M1 series MBT is mentioned in a discussion, some Pakistani people quickly cite the 1980s trails to discredit it. People should not rely upon the 1980s trails to determine the credibility of M1 series MBT at present. This is the crux of my argument.

Moreover, if even some military personnel are under the illusion that the 1960s era Type 59-II MBT is better then the M1A1 Abrams MBT, then this is indeed a matter of concern.

As for the renewed offer;

Pakistan have limited resources; an expensive MBT is not welcome due to cost related considerations and/or logistics requirements. Pakistan's primary concern [is] Indian armor.

Anyways, peace.

A selam a little bit off Topic, but I WILL ASK AGAIN; WHAT is the name of the Tank in pakistan Army, which has a canon of 105 mm and is still in service ?

Chinese Type 59-II

 

[Inception-06]

My M1 fantasies?

I just want to ascertain the truth about the trials in Pakistan (preferably both sides of the story; Pakistani and American). It seems that I am out of luck. But thanks for your contribution.

Yes, the event in question is history now. But;

Q 1. Why rely upon it?
Q 2. Military personnel do not pay attention to newer developments?

People should not rely upon a single event in 1980s to determine the credibility of M1 series MBT at present. This is my argument.

As for the renewed offer;

Pakistan have limited resources; an expensive MBT is not welcome due to cost related considerations and logistics requirements. Pakistan's primary concern [is] Indian armor.

Anyways, peace.


Chinese Type 59-II

My M1 fantasies?

I just want to ascertain the truth about the trials in Pakistan (preferably both sides of the story; Pakistani and American). It seems that I am out of luck. But thanks for your contribution.

Yes, the event (in question) is history now. But;

Q 1. Why rely upon it?
Q 2. Military personnel do not pay attention to newer developments?

People should not rely upon a single event in 1980s to determine the credibility of M1 series MBT at present. This is the crux of my argument.

As for the renewed offer;

Pakistan have limited resources; an expensive MBT is not welcome due to cost related considerations and/or logistics requirements. Pakistan's primary concern [is] Indian armor.

Anyways, peace.


Chinese Type 59-II

Yes exactly, but then there is also the Type-69, which has recently get the upgrade from Thales. Type-69 is a development of the Type 59. Their lineage can be seen through the distinct gap between the first and second roadwheels. Other improvements included a new engine, ballistic computers, and laser rangefinders.


Type 69-III:

• The first Chinese tank to incorporate rubber-padded tracks
• The first Chinese tank to close hatches automatically on detection of NBC agents
• Type 83 105 mm gun (improved L7 copy) with replaceable indigenous thermal sleeve (Type 79II)
• Passive IR sights or thermal imaging system
• British Marconi FCS with:
  • TLRLA laser rangefinder
  • BCLA ballistic computer
  • TGSA gunner sight
• Type 79 liquid-cooled 730 hp diesel engine

 

[Dazzler]

A selam a little bit off Topic, but I WILL ASK AGAIN; WHAT is the name of the Tank in pakistan Army, which has a canon of 105 mm and is still in service ?

I need this infromation, because I want write a article about this Tank and its service in pakistan Army for PDF, seems the most unknown Tank in PDF, same goes for the T-85IIMP you know the status of this both Tanks, did both get the Al-zarar upgrade ? what is their main task compared with the T-80UD and AlKhalid i? Thx !

I am asking you because, your post have give us PDF memebersthe highest quality of knowledge in armoured warfare !

Few hundred Type-59II and Type-69IIMs still have 105mm rifled guns.

My M1 fantasies?

I just want to ascertain the truth about the trials in Pakistan (preferably both sides of the story; Pakistani and American). It seems that I am out of luck. But thanks for your contribution.

Yes, the event (in question) is history now. But;

Q 1. Why mention it?
Q 2. Why rely upon it?
Q 3. People do not pay attention to newer developments?

Whenever an M1 series MBT is mentioned in a discussion, some Pakistani people quickly cite the 1980s trails to discredit it. People should not rely upon the 1980s trails to determine the credibility of M1 series MBT at present. This is the crux of my argument.

Moreover, if even some military personnel are under the illusion that the 1960s era Type 59-II MBT is better then the M1A1 Abrams MBT, then this is indeed a matter of concern.

As for the renewed offer;

Pakistan have limited resources; an expensive MBT is not welcome due to cost related considerations and/or logistics requirements. Pakistan's primary concern [is] Indian armor.

Anyways, peace.


Chinese Type 59-II

* Because you opened this thread to "Seek Answers"

* Because the lessons learned from M1A1 trials were pivotal in the development of Al Khalid series. Pakistan needed a new state of the art tank to operate in the desert and plains of thar/ Bahawalpur with high expectations from the Abrams considering how well the M-47/48s had performed in the same region. the dismal performance was not they had expected.

* Newer developments had nothing to do with pakistan as anything about 55 tonnes needed a massive logistical support, rail and bridge network among other novelties.

Even countries such as the US and China cannot afford to spend lavishly forever.

Peace X2

 

[C130]

Saudi Arabia haven't fought a war independently for a long time. It needs to learn tactics and gain experience of its own the hard way.

At present, it is not recommended for Saudi Arabia to use its best hardware on the ground. Loss of expensive vehicles wouldn't be a morale booster.

Iraqi armed forces are using M1A1 Abrams MBT against ISIS however.

Saudi Arabia lacks combined arms tactics


they really should study WW2 tactics especially blitzkrieg

 

[LeGenD]

Saudi Arabia lacks combined arms tactics


they really should study WW2 tactics especially blitzkreig

They can also study US thunder run tactics and Operation Phantom Fury but I doubt the capability of Saudi troops at present.

 

[I S I]

The tank performance was so bad, Zia took a dive with a plane after watching it.

 

[C130]

The tank performance was so bad, Zia took a dive with a plane after watching it.

it was bad.


the M1A2 sepV3 fixes most negatives of the early model Abrams


I think Pakistan would die to have this tank (reasonbly priced of course 200x for $1.2 billion) only other tank I think could match this would be T-99AM

 

[I S I]

it was bad.


the M1A2 sepV3 fixes most negatives of the early model Abrams


I think Pakistan would die to have this tank (reasonbly priced of course 200x for $1.2 billion) only other tank I think could match this would be T-99AM

Chill. It was just a joke.

 

[ssethii]

They are for individuals with a certain IQ level. No offense.

none taken but writing precisely is also an art.

 

[redgriffin]

In 1987, an M1A1 Abrams Tank was tested in Pakistan and its performance was terrible according to Pakistani accounts. A (Pakistani) major [in a documentary] claimed that even the Chinese Type 59 tank is better then the M1A1 Abrams Tank.

My point of contention is that if M1A1 Abrams Tank was so bad, how come it performed marvelously in diverse environments ranging from deserts to urban settings during the Persian Gulf War 1991 and Operation Iraqi Freedom? If Pakistani accounts are to be taken seriously, then M1A1 Abrams Tank should have been a failure.

NOTE: M1A1 Abrams Tank have been used in the deserts of Jordan and Afghanistan as well. Therefore, environment was never an issue.

A [BBC] documentary about the (deceased) Pakistan army chief Zia-ul-Huq contains footage of an [unidentified] gun firing a (dummy) round towards a target but misses it by considerable margin. This gun is claimed to be that of the M1A1 Abrams Tank.

However, this type of gun is (not) used in an M1A1 Abrams Tank (not even in the export model of this Tank). Therefore, I find this documentary misleading. And if Pakistani accounts are based on this footage, then they are equally misplaced and I find it strange that nobody attempted to critically evaluate this matter at official capacity.

Here is a photo of an M1A1 Abrams Tank:

The actual gun of an M1A1 Abrams Tank is [vastly] different from the gun shown in BBC documentary.

Now, here is PROOF of high accuracy of an M1A1 Abrams Tank: Imgur (A dummy round was fired towards the left-most target panel and hit the target. It shall be kept in mind that dummy rounds do not destroy targets.)

TAS (Target Acquisition System) of M1A1 Abrams Tank:

The Gunner's Primary Sight-Line of Sight (GPS-LOS), was developed by the Electro-Optical Systems Division of Hughes Aircraft Company. The night vision Thermal Imaging System (TIS), also from Hughes, creates an image based on the differences of heat radiated by objects in the field of view. The thermal image is displayed in the eyepiece of the Gunner's sight together with the range measurement to within 10 meters of accuracy, from a Hughes laser range finder, which is integrated into all of the fire control systems. The Abrams also has an onboard digital fire control computer. Range data from the laser rangefinder is transferred directly to the fire control computer, which automatically calculates the fire control solution. The data includes 1) the lead angle measurement, 2) the bend of the gun measured by the muzzle reference system of the main armament, 3) wind velocity measurement from a wind sensor on the roof of the turret and 4) the data from a pendulum static cant sensor located at the center of the turret roof. The Gunner or Commander manually inputs the data on the ammunition type and temperature, and the barometric pressure and the weapon is prepared for engagement.

Source: M1 Abrams Main Battle Tank

This disclosure is from a book of Steven J. Zaloga:

Pakistan tested the M1 tank, but disagreements with the US over its nuclear programme have prevented acquisition of the Abrams tank.

This disclosure is from a book of Pranay Gupte:

In Bahawalpur, Zia and his brass had watched a demonstration of the M1-Abrams, one of the most sophisticated tanks in the world. The manufacturer of the tank, General Dynamics Inc., was so keen to make a sale that the American company had trimmed the overall price of a package deal by $500,000 to $3 million per tank. Indeed Zia seemed so impressed by the tank's awesome capabilities that the General Dynamics executives at the scene were certain that a deal will be clinched.

Zia left the demonstration in his usual cheerful mood, pausing to chat with several local security personnel and others before he boarded the C-130. The plane took off with a roar, but in less than four minutes, while it was at an altitude of 4000 feet and still climbing, the aircraft lost radio contact with the control tower.

In the nutshell, we have conflicting accounts from different sources about this matter but I have provided (neutral) evidence that is enough to dismiss Pakistani accounts (and) the credibility of the relevant footage in the referred BBC documentary.

Therefore, all of the above leads to following questions:-

1. The M1A1 model tested in Pakistan was a prototype?
2. Pakistani accounts are FALSE?
3. Any technical information about this testing event?

Any meaningful input from the professionals is welcome but I will give preference to concrete information of the events, (not) fairy-tales like my uncle was an eye-witness and the tank was shit and blah blah.

The gun seems different because at that time the Abrams was using a 105mm rifled gun not the 120mm smooth bore as is shown in the pics you've posted.

 

[niaz]

No one doubts that MI-Abrams in its latest version is an excellent fighting machine. But so are Leopard 2, Challenger 2, and T-90 etc.

Understand Pakistan is going for the Chinese Type 99, as good a tank as any. Unless people think they know better than Pak Army General Staff; we should let it go at that.

 

[LeGenD]

I have been quite clear from the start about where i got the information from. I have not with held any news that i had about this scenario.

I appreciate your contribution and participation in my thread.

You have presented some Pakistani accounts but not the information that I have been looking for. Though, I understand your limitations in this regard.

This is news to me, i havent heard any of this before.

You're welcome.

Chinese weapons were technologically behind western tech in 1980's. Pakistan had been using american and british weapons since independence.

Same was the situation in the matters of MBT back then.

Common sense says that a decision cannot be passed unless the story is heard from both sides. This sense exists in courts too. The judge just cannot hear one side of the story and give a verdict, he hears the story from both sides and then passes on a verdict.

I find it very ignorant on my part too if i hear the rosy side of the story and like it due to its presentation and facts and proof and then start thinking yeah this story has more substance so forget the story from the other side. No doesnt work for me this way.

My friend,

We are talking about a (well-known and battle-proven) MBT in this thread; the (combat) performance and (technical) characteristics of M1A1 Abrams MBT are [heavily documented] and such information is accessible on the web.

There isn’t a need to follow the principles of a 'court of law' to settle our 'point of contention' about this topic when we have access to considerable evidence (on the web) to achieve greater understanding of the ground realities of the MBT [in question].

Even the courts acknowledge the importance of documented records and digital evidence to resolve a case in modern times. Testimonials from the people are not necessarily reliable (people often lie in the courts).

Pakistani accounts stem from a 'single event' whose (official) details are shrouded in mystery and have not been disclosed to the public till date. In addition, we don't have the American side of the story either. Pakistani accounts do not offer technical explanation and video evidence of performance related issues of an M1A1 Abrams MBT during its trials in Pakistan; I find them insufficient and misleading.

---

Even if Pakistani accounts are supposedly true to a certain extent, then my assumption is that either the MBT [in question] malfunctioned due to unknown reasons (or) it was not properly handled. However, this is a matter of the past. If there were some shortcomings back then, then they have been addressed.

The military appears to have solved its earlier wind-driven worry - the ubiquitous, destructive desert sand. The basic difficulty for aircraft and most other vehicles and equipment was that Arabian sand is, in fact, dust, almost as fine as talcum powder and nothing like sand found in the United States.

Desert Shield vehicles needed finer-mesh filters and got them. Pantyhose worked in the interim. Helicopter rotors blew the dust into choking clouds that scarred the leading edges of the blades. Now the blade edges have been covered with erosion-resistant epoxy tape.

Source: Business | American Forces Cope With Whims Of Desert Winds | Seattle Times Newspaper

The Arabian desert is not a pleasant environment and M1 series MBT have evidently performed well in its areas during the war.

During the extensive military use/testing, multiple issues were uncovered and fixed – usually, these were connected to the actual use of the vehicles, not being significant design flaws per se. The vehicle was also criticized at first by the public but the crew and unit commanders were actually quite happy with it. It was a solid, useful battle tank and that was what they actually wanted from the start.

Source: M1 Abrams: The Whispering Death - Part 2 | Armored Warfare - Official Website

---

You can learn more from this article: Washington National Guard - Army Guard - The M1A1 Abrams Main Battle Tank

I cannot do this unless i get to see whats written in PA reports. Also i would rather believe a major from PA than adhere to online arguements. The first reason is that im closer to PA in real life. i know very well how things go about there. Secondly, for you,an army major giving a statement might be BS, for me, its not. Like i said before, that major can get court martial over one loose statement. Things work in very different way when you wear a uniform.

My friend,

I have (always) valued opinions of military personnel; they are expected to be good in their respective roles. I have never doubted the professionalism of Pakistani military personnel. Some Pakistani military personnel are members of this forum and I have always appreciated them.

I also believe that Major Hasnain Haider of the Pakistan Army (who was interviewed by Mr. Wajahat S. Khan for a segment in the We Are Soldiers documentary to provide information about MBT in the inventory of Pakistan Army) is absolutely competent in his duties and have good grasp of military related matters in general. In short, respect where due.

Now, praises aside, an informed individual should be realistic as well. Military personnel are also human beings and infallible like any informed individual. No human being is all-knowing.

Pakistani accounts seem to give the impression that M1A1 Abrams MBT is absolutely pathetic. Is this realistic? No.

Therefore;

Q 1. Are Pakistani accounts reliable?

Q 2. Is M1A1 Abrams MBT absolutely pathetic?

Q 3. Can we expect Pakistani military personnel, irrespective of rank, to be experts of equipment they do not have access to and/or have no personal experience with?

Pakistan Army does not operate a fleet of M1A1 Abrams MBT. Therefore, Pakistani military personnel are not in the position to determine its credibility. The best they can do is to check available evidence and draw conclusions from it. A 1980s era report will not cut it.

---

I get the impression that Mr. Wajahat put Major Hasnain in a tight spot by asking him about how Pakistani armor fares against NATO armor during the interview. Mr. Wajahat should have focused on the threat constituted by Indian armor because Pakistan perceives India as the greatest threat to its national security. On the other hand, Major Hasnain should have asserted that each MBT have its role and importance, and MBT such as Al-Khalid and T-80UD are designed to meet latest challenges; this would have been a professional response.

Now, if anybody (irrespective of his profession) asserts that the (1960s era) Type 59-II MBT is better then a relatively more advanced and battle-proven MBT (of NATO origin) based on a report whose details are not even officially disclosed; then he is likely to draw criticism from informed individuals worldwide. People are not blind to military related developments in the world.

I never called M1 inadequate. an inferior version yes maybe. Iraqis got inferior M1.

Export version have standard specifications; still a very good MBT.

I said that as an example that junior or mid career officers do all the technical and report stuff.

So you admit that you don't know about the personnel involved in the making of a report about the trails of an M1A1 Abrams MBT in Pakistan? Fair enough.

NOTE: Response in progress.

 

[Raja Porus]

Continued from following thread:

Pakistan Army's VT-4 Main Battle Tank | Updates & Discussions

An upgrade to infrastructure would have been a good start to accommodate it along with its "economic use" by the rest of the population, with a growing population and more automobiles it's would have been perfect. Remember logistics lines are very crucial in war time and peace time. This is...

defence.pk

The Abrams failed miserably in the tests and missed most of the targets, even stationery ones... In front of the whole top brass. Moreover the tank was manned by Americans.
Writes Brigadier Yusuf in his Bear Trap.

@iLION12345_1 @PakFactor

 

[iLION12345_1]

The Abrams failed miserably in the tests and missed most of the targets, even stationery ones... In front of the whole top brass. Moreover the tank was manned by Americans.
Writes Brigadier Yusuf in his Bear Trap.

@iLION12345_1 @PakFactor

I have a hard time believing that stuff. I’ve read that book and others, but it just boggles me that they performed so poorly, were they actively trying not to sell the tank? There’s got to be more behind it than the tank failing, because that would be a very isolated incident for the Abrams.