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M1 trials in Pakistan

What about M-109 then, the main stay SP howitzer of PA's armored forces :laugh:
But there's a difference between a system that is 35 years old and another which is just five years old and still undergoing induction.
Similar to the case of a PAF Mirage and any other new fighter it inducts.
 
We also need to see beyond India as it's not the only enemy.
I know what you are talking about. But most Pakistanis are too cuck to admit it. They pretend India is our only enemy because it makes them sleep better at night.
 
I know what you are talking about. But most Pakistanis are too cuck to admit it. They pretend India is our only enemy because it makes them sleep better at night.

It's like a bird closing its eyes, thinking the cat will not get it.
 
1988 M1A1.
1991 Type-85. (Maybe tested in Ex ZeM 1990, shown in 1993)
By 1996, Pakistan was testing T-80.
1997 T-80UD
2001 AK.
2004 AZ.
Thats a very short span. Then,
2021 VT-4
PA also tested Yugoslavian M-84As back in 91 and loved it's performance but the deal was never signed. UD competed with 85III storm 2 for the tender of 320 mbts.
 
Turkey has used these in LICs. PA downgraded T-69 gun and put them under FC service. The 105mm equipped M48A5 would have fared well also through numbers.

T59 has an interesting history, it was about to junk by PA. When a group of engineers at 502 inspect the tanks and submit the modification plan, including a german gun. These tanks were about to be decommissioned. Later proved to be one of the best tanks for urban warfare/FATA/Syria etc
 
T59 has an interesting history, it was about to junk by PA. When a group of engineers at 502 inspect the tanks and submit the modification plan, including a german gun. These tanks were about to be decommissioned. Later proved to be one of the best tanks for urban warfare/FATA/Syria etc
I wouldn’t even accidentally call them the best tanks for urban warfare (or any warfare), especially in FATA or Syria. They were used out of necessity. If terrorists armed with small arms can take out multiple such tanks (including Multiple Al-Zarrars), then that tank has no business being used let alone called good.

The Type 59 became obsolete before the century started and no amount of upgrades, including the Al-Zarrar, have ever made it an objectively good tank, it has remained since the 80s, nothing but a necessity of numbers, regardless of the place it has been used in.

Also there were no German guns used on PA Type 59s. The barrel blanks were at one pointed imported from France, some still are. Germany helped set up the Gun manufacturing facility at HIT sure, but the guns are Chinese copies of the L7 and then a Pakistani version of that.

They should have been decommissioned in the 80s, they’re a major hazard in warfare to the point where I hope PA will save their crews instead of sending these things out into the battlefield, since obviously that’s not possible, the second best option is to have them retired before they’re ever needed in combat again. Using them against india Will be like sending Troops to a minefield where the enemy has planned an ambush in an unarmored hilux, and we know how fond PA is of doing that.
 
I wouldn’t even accidentally call them the best tanks for urban warfare (or any warfare), especially in FATA or Syria. They were used out of necessity. If terrorists armed with small arms can take out multiple such tanks (including Multiple Al-Zarrars), then that tank has no business being used let alone called good.

The Type 59 became obsolete before the century started and no amount of upgrades, including the Al-Zarrar, have ever made it an objectively good tank, it has remained since the 80s, nothing but a necessity of numbers, regardless of the place it has been used in.

Also there were no German guns used on PA Type 59s. The barrel blanks were at one pointed imported from France, some still are. Germany helped set up the Gun manufacturing facility at HIT sure, but the guns are Chinese copies of the L7 and then a Pakistani version of that.

They should have been decommissioned in the 80s, they’re a major hazard in warfare to the point where I hope PA will save their crews instead of sending these things out into the battlefield, since obviously that’s not possible, the second best option is to have them retired before they’re ever needed in combat again. Using them against india Will be like sending Troops to a minefield where the enemy has planned an ambush in an unarmored hilux, and we know how fond PA is of doing that.
We can't afford Bradley FV or newer expensive armored vehicles, These tanks are easily available everywhere. Need some anti-billistic modifications and are ready to roll.

In Syrian urban war,

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We can't afford Bradley FV or newer expensive armored vehicles, These tanks are easily available everywhere. Need some anti-billistic modifications and are ready to roll.
Nope ?. Advanced AFV program is in active development afaik. HIT built a limited production batch of Viper IFVs but PA wasn't satisfied with it I guess so they asked HIT to build a new AFV which is now being developed. Which means that PA isn't interested in small numbers but rather big amounts of AFVs.

Tenders for AFV dev parts have been given out since several months now. This is newest tender from 15th September, which mostly includes outer parts so AFV Development is likely in final stages.
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We can't afford Bradley FV or newer expensive armored vehicles, These tanks are easily available everywhere. Need some anti-billistic modifications and are ready to roll.
Negative. They are death traps. Their crews are more useful as foot infantry than being sent in these machines if you ask me. Obviously PA treating a soldier like a tool of war will not see it that way, they need tanks in numbers, it’s hard to grasp just how outdated these things are on a modern battlefield. How slow, cumbersome and vulnerable they are. Doesn’t the Al-Zarrar have enough upgrades to qualify as “Some Anti-Ballistic modifications”? And it’ll still go up in flames if an RPG hits it turret, killing the entire crew.

I get why they’re still used, even the un-upgraded Type 59s, we simply don’t have any other option, but that doesn’t mean these tanks are useful by any stretch of the imagination, let alone good.
 
Negative. They are death traps. Their crews are more useful as foot infantry than being sent in these machines if you ask me. Obviously PA treating a soldier like a tool of war will not see it that way, they need tanks in numbers, it’s hard to grasp just how outdated these things are on a modern battlefield. How slow, cumbersome and vulnerable they are. Doesn’t the Al-Zarrar have enough upgrades to qualify as “Some Anti-Ballistic modifications”? And it’ll still go up in flames if an RPG hits it turret, killing the entire crew.

I get why they’re still used, even the un-upgraded Type 59s, we simply don’t have any other option, but that doesn’t mean these tanks are useful by any stretch of the imagination, let alone good.
These machines only modify for anti terror operations. Only good for may be 7.62 or rpg. We agree or not still in use. Just like Mitsubishi open trucks.

And this is T72 Syrian urban war.

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These machines only modify for anti terror operations. Only good for may be 7.62 or rpg. We agree or not still in use. Just like Mitsubishi open trucks.
And yet both tanks and crews were lost in said Anti-Terror ops, which likely wouldn’t have been the case if UDs or AKs or even Type 85s had been there instead. So the modifications weren’t really foolproof were they. Of course those tanks were busy since they’re needed on the Indian front, but that’s just what I’m trying to say, they were used out of necessity, it doesn’t make them or their modifications good.
 

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