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Lt Gen (retd) Shahid Aziz opens Pandora Box on Kargil issue

This sounds like Musharraf's 8 second nuke annihilation theory. :rolleyes:
You are talking of India here and not for e.g. Pre NATO Afghanistan.

whatever thats gonna be a deadly end for sub-continent.....why dont you guys settle kashmir so that instead of talking about nukes and missiles we can talk about development and peace????
 
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whatever thats gonna be a deadly end for sub-continent.....why dont you guys settle kashmir so that instead of talking about nukes and missiles we can talk about development and peace????

As Karan said, after Pakistan's numerous fiasco's no sane community will even want to discuss anything worthwhile with you anymore. Musharraf killed Pak's Kashmir hopes and we ensured that you lose credibility to ever talk of Kashmir because of your Kargil fiasco.
 
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Its not a sweeping statement. What PA is doing now, targeting terrorists, they could have done when they were running from Afghanistan. Now they have extended their depth in Pakistan. I have made the most practical post.

Not only security, this Polio epidemic and people ignorant of Iodine salt will show its effect after 5 to 10 years. It will create a whole new generation of deformed children which will be more than a burden on society. Its the long lasting effect of terrorism.
Believe me, you can't see it because its a slow process and a non-linear one. It will jump so high in such a less time that it would be very hard to control then and will require hell lot of resources.

Its the biggest blunder done by Pakistani Army by allowing these extremists for such a long time. This concept of Good Taliban will hurt Pakistan.

Look at today's bomb blast resulting in death of 22 Shias. No one is discussing it on any thread. I haven't posted it as I am not allowed. Its just feeding the simmering anger. God forbid if they took weapons to protect themselves.

For once, try to see what will be the result of insufficient action of Pakistani Army and Civilian govt., both current and long term effects.

Sorry the internet has been a pain in the arse ! :hitwall:

I would indeed call that a sweeping statement because it betrays a chronic lack of appreciation of the dynamics that Pakistan & Afghanistan have found themselves in the past & the present.

Lets us assume for the sake of the argument that there are two kinds of terrorists in Pakistan - the homegrown militants & the Taliban. Consequently let us begin with the homegrown threat; the Pakistan Army neither created them nor neutered them just like the Pakistan Army didn't create the militant wings of many political parties throughout the country. Such falls under the purview of the Interior Ministry & the security apparatus at their disposal; having said that these miscreants have been acted upon in the past & successfully subsided for long periods of time. Right now they are active because of an abysmal security paradigm that Pakistan finds herself in where we're besought by an insurgency on one hand & a militancy on another. In the same vacuum that is created because of the Pakistan Army's preoccupation with the insurgency & the militancy, other elements in addition to the homegrown militants have been created, petty criminals who've killed all & sundry in Karachi to get a piece of the ever so coveted Bhattaa Business that most Political Parties & even the Taliban themselves are engaged in.

These people will be crushed in due time & there appears to be action on them in the pipe. The militancy in Baluchistan is dying down & once the insurgency, which appears to have rolled back in recent months, is brought to an acceptably lower level, these miscreants, these homegrown terrorists will be dealt with severely & decisively in the coming year or two just as they were in the '90s.

Their presence or absence is contingent upon a vacuum that is created because of the preoccupation of most of the country's security apparatus - Civilian or military, not on a tacit support by the Pakistan Army for their actions.

Onto the second of the two kinds - the Taliban; to understand why we created them & why we see a use in them, one needs to harken back to the late '80s & early '90s. Pakistan's military & civilian executive were given a rude awaken by the absence of any rehabilitation work of either Afghanistan or Pakistan's Tribal Areas & instead, after being used & abused in the Cold War, we were greeted with sanctions, millions of refugees, an Afghanistan that was torn between proxy wars & warlordism & the entire social fabric of the Pashtun society irrevocably torn apart.

On that part we are guilty..guilty of our failure to preempt the insincerity of the International Community & the Muslim World in following up on the Afghan Jihad with proper Nation building in Pakistan's Tribal Areas & Afghanistan so that generations who had known nothing but death & destruction could be rehabilitated back into the comity of Nations. We are also guilty of joining the Anti-Soviet bandwagon & leading the Afghan Jihad - a mistake, in retrospect.

This is where the Taliban come into the fray; every nation on Earth that had a stake in Afghanistan was using their proxies by supporting their choice of Mujahideen turned Warlords to destabilize an already painfully destabilized Afghanistan & by extension Pakistan's Tribal Areas. The Taliban were created not as a luxury & certainly not as foot-soldiers for Kashmir or the much thrown about 'Strategic Depth' for we needed neither; between the Tribal Lashkars, the Paramilitary Forces, the Pakistan Army & the disgruntled Kashmiris, that side was covered & if anyone has traveled from Lahore to Peshawar they know that no matter how 'thin' Pakistan might be the topographical inter & intra Provincial barriers are enough to dissuade anyone to take advantage of that lack of 'depth'. The Taliban were Pakistan's attempt to make the best out of a really...really bad situation & for a time it worked but they were not our proxies or anything like it otherwise we would have been able to get them to affirm the Durrand Line as the International Border between Pakistan & Afghanistan, we would have been able to tell them to hand over Osama Bin Ladin to us ASAP or a plethora of other things that we could have done to benefit Pakistan immensely. The Taliban, however, offered us three things above all other :

(a) Peace & Stability in Afghanistan through an end to incessant warlordism, killings & counter-killings.

(b) Afghanistan & different factions in Afghanistan not being used by someone else as their proxies to the detriment of Pakistan.

(c) An Afghanistan that leaves Pakistan in peace without harboring Baloch Separatists or invading our territory on their Loy Afghanistan or Greater Afghanistan quest; two things that Afghanistan has done repeatedly in the past.

Does that, in any way, imply that the Taliban were the proverbial Knights in Shinning Armour ? No...nothing of the sort & they were just as bad as the Northern Alliance & other Afghan Factions but their creation was a necessity for the sole purpose of 'damage containment back then.

And now when Pakistan is accused of differentiating between the Good Taliban & the Bad Taliban, it is precisely because Pakistan sees a return of the above that we choose not to make enemies with those Taliban factions who are not fighting against the State of Pakistan, killing our soldiers or blowing up in our marketplace ! Does that in any way means that they (the Good Taliban) are our proxies ? No...they probably dislike us quite a bit for the part that we've played in the War on Terror but right now they're not attacking us & with the US packing up & leaving Afghanistan in 2014 & finally a little later after foOking up the country like the last time out, we can't afford to pick a fight that we know we've no chance of winning.

If you'd like to I'd go into as much detail as you'd want but mate your perspective is the atypical Indian perspective & the one that your Government has sold quite successfully to the International Audience otherwise it is a perspective that assumes so much, takes conjecture as facts & sees everything in a vacuum !

Dig a little deeper & try to understand things in their proper environment & time-frame !
 
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@Armstrong Why call me Typical Indian ? I was presenting how typical Indian and rest of the world thinks. That doesn't mean I think in same way too. :cray:
 
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kargil was started by mujaheedeen and kashmiri freedom fighters !! even notheren light infantry was not a part of regular pak army at that time it was considered paramilatary force till kargil !!! after that it was given a regular reputation of infantry!!!
 
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I guess our nukes are world known now and as we are now fed up of these skirmishes I guess do or die is what we are heading for....Pak ra'ad cruise missile can now be launched from JF17,mirage and f 16 and two of them with a range of 350 km and nukes on tips...If pak decide to nuke india that would be with a mind to destroy all indians capabilities to response back means atleast a two dozens war palnes already in air with around 48 nukes and then another two dozen missiles launched from ground so a total of nearly 80 nukes in first strike would cripple india and yeah the flying jets would make sure no military installation is left ....Dont dream that Pak will just fire one nuke and then wait for India ...why else are we having more nukes than india all the time?

he he he do you know that at this very moment all the pakistani air space is constantli watched round the clock 365 days a year by owr radars and sats lolzz even is a drone takes to sky from one of your bases which your buzdil generals have leased to there masters we know about it and we are prepared for any eventuallity

Now do you know how many diff types of air launched cruise missiles we are having and do you know what are owr jags are kept off not to metion other air assets and your country cant do any thing as we have already a huge no off AA (PUM 300,400,BUK,Spyder,Akash,AAD,PAD,BARAK to name a few)cover on all owr bases and sensitive locations

And do you have any idea that all your bases and sensitive installations are well under the bhramos supersonik cruise missile range and how much time it will take to reach its targets and how much time , diffculties and obstacels your missiles have to achive to get there targets and do you think IA & IAF will wait if you try to be too adventures this time lolzz

Jani its not 1965 or 1999 that we were unprepaired this time we are expecting every thing and after kargil we covered all owr track and fault lines but look like PA is still in denial and sulking and likking its own wounds :rofl:

whatever thats gonna be a deadly end for sub-continent.....why dont you guys settle kashmir so that instead of talking about nukes and missiles we can talk about development and peace????

Kashmir to hum nahi denge aadha mulk to tum kho hi chuke ho aur baluchistan ki halat patli hai aur suna hai gilgit aur balistan to chinio pe girvi the hi ab tum ports bhee lease per dene lage ho kyon nahi jab air bases aur army lease pe de sakte ho to ye kyon nahi aur ek baat is baar to amrika bahadur bhee tumhe nahi bacheyga do what you fancy he he he he
 
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Be ready for 1000 more Siachens and

Just look at your own backyard when you talk about Mumbai.

If you r clever enough,thn u could hve known that,siachen is. Small part of land,where no heck canbe alive without sufficiant supplies?if you compare it to mumbai?
So wht you meant was,you think india is ready to give mumbai,dehli on the expense of some man barren ice-lands?lol lol lol
Well,we hve a history living like that, bt can you live like that too? There r 10000 more, hafiz saeed wants hve a pice of india anyway?lol lol lol
 
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If you r clever enough,thn u could hve known that,siachen is. Small part of land,where no heck canbe alive without sufficiant supplies?if you compare it to mumbai?
So wht you meant was,you think india is ready to give mumbai,dehli on the expense of some man barren ice-lands?lol lol lol
Well,we hve a history living like that, bt can you live like that too? There r 10000 more, hafiz saeed wants hve a pice of india anyway?lol lol lol

Another idiotic post coming from you.

As it is, enough people are being killed or being blown up in Pakistan already. Just yesterday 39 got killed in Lakki Marwat, now there is news of another 3 including 2 PA men being blown up by an IED. As you said in your post above: "Well,we hve a history living like that".
Maybe you are a Neanderthal savage living in a cavern; but do you want your fellow country-men to live like you?

If you do wish this situation of perpetual shootings and bombings in your country; you are welcome to, just as you are welcome to live with Hafizzz Syed in your cave. As they say: Idealogies can make strange bed-fellows. Though their will be nothing strange about 'this pair' of savage animals. But your fellow citizens in Pakistan neither wish for nor deserve such a fate!

Khuda Hafiz. :lol:
 
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there should be an inquiry on 16 failed attacks on Sominat and the previous fights at Pani Pat done by Afghan forces .. why they were failed until the 17th.

by the way it will be best to merge this thread with a recent thread we had on the same subject.

Before that they should inquire the reason behind the loss Hindu Shahi dynasty in Peshawar at the hands marauding barbaric forces of Mahmud Ghazni and consequent change of civilisational course of history of Ghandhar and punjab.

Or better inquire the invasion of Sindh by Mohamad Bin Kasim and defeat of local king Raja Dahir. Time has arrived Pakistanis delve seriopuisly into these incidents of past to figure our the solutions for her present day problems.
 
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If you r clever enough,thn u could hve known that,siachen is. Small part of land,where no heck canbe alive without sufficiant supplies?if you compare it to mumbai?
So wht you meant was,you think india is ready to give mumbai,dehli on the expense of some man barren ice-lands?lol lol lol
Well,we hve a history living like that, bt can you live like that too? There r 10000 more, hafiz saeed wants hve a pice of india anyway?lol lol lol

I Just asked you to look at your own back yard before trying for another mumbai, your backyard is FATA, we are playing basket ball, throw ball, volley ball along with the americans and Afghans, Covert war which you taught us has given us rich dividends than it has given to you.

by the way, Just because you lost siachen doesn't mean it does not have any strategic value.
 
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