Lt. Gen (R) Tariq Khan speaks

[blain2]

The CJCSC position should rotate among the three services as done by most professional militaries. This will reduce the prestige of the COAS position and help stabilize the military-civilian relations.

The biggest curse on Pakistan is the presence of an unchecked COAS who has total command over the country.

It has been tried in the past and unfortunately has not worked. The decentralization of power away from CoAS to other 4 star regional commands is a more feasible option because it would truly make the CoAS first among "equals" in reality and not the way this phrase is thrown around in the context of the CoAS and his Corps Commanders. Not having combatant/regional commands under the CoAS takes the power away. However, the same problem afflicts the CJCSC as well. The poor chap had nothing to lean on until the NCA was formed with a pivotal advisory role (on employment of nuclear weapons and green lighting the employment as the senior most representative of all of the armed forces of Pakistan) being assigned to CJCSC in Musharraf's time.

 

[Goenitz]

1, 2 and 3 are essentially the American model. It definitely has its pros, albeit the con is that its an expensive proposition for Pakistan, however, in light of consolidation of too much power in the hands of the CoAS, the idea is to make the post of CoAS similar to the CJCSC. How you do that is by moving formations/troops over to the regional commands with their own 4 stars so here goes 111 Bde away from the CoAS etc.

whats your thought on banning O/A-levels intake for ISSB. Occurred in Ayub's era or at least after Tariq's induction.

That is an age old tradition (and a very good one in our military). One time my father was driving his beat up Volkswagen in Karachi, Lt Gen Pervez Musharraf was driving on the same road. Saw my father, pulled his car over and paid his respects for a good 15 mins addressing him with the usual "sir, sir..." the entire time. My father was exactly 10 PMA courses his senior.

I know bro. Perhaps it is harder to consider these days after how bajwa and asim poorly treated veterans' families and ceased their pensions etc..

On the second point, I have to be very honest here and tell you guys the real deal. This comes from those on the inside. ISI is average. It relies more on human intelligence than technology. Its manpower is comprised of 30% uniformed cadres with officers posted in and out of the directorate as they would with any other posting within the army which means ISI suffers from disruptions in its officer cadres due to the transfers and postings. The remaining 70% of the manpower is hired from civil service and the general population and provides more continuity.

I have never bought on to the hype created by internet fans of ISI being 1, 2 or 3 or any other rank. It's just a manpower intensive outfit which isn't omnipotent or omnipresent. It has its share of goofs, idiots and intelligent personnel. It has more than its share of failures and those too spectacular ones, along with victories of strategic nature. So mixed bag, nothing out of this world.

I never thought of ISI being number 1 or in the first 10. I know they are human manpower heavy. Yes, they are good as far as Afg and India theatres are concerned. They have no int presence. We totally missed when India bought a large artic gear near 84. Indians could listen to some Gen convo with Musharraf when he was in China.

Perhaps, we severely lack hacking, spyware and surveillance capabilities. No satellites and remote sensing capabilities.

 

[LeGenD]

The other side of the story. Pakistani civilians are found to be disorganized and accepting of corruption. Those with party affiliations are found to be egotistical and corrupt on average. There is this itch to resort to LINKS to get things done irrespective of being right or wrong. And take a look at how many political parties have popped up by now. Who will fix this problem?

 

[Ghareeb_Da_Baal]

I truly agree with your above statement I myself was staunch back Pak army would defend serviceman in uniform at all levels but after seeing chaos in Pakistan brought on by these choors and decaits who were helped by Pak army I have lost all confidence in our armed forces.So sad that they chosen the unpatriotic side

exactly. This is not about politics, PTI or IK anymore. This is about the people collectively. They have been thrown back into slaver and it would take decades to undo it by the newer generation. They do not want to be told what to do by servants of the people of Pakistan.
I recall one of my pals called his pal Sad Rafiq for his birthday. he is a lot younger than Khaka ji. hew was told that during the day we cuss and curse the fojiz and at nite we beg them to spare us. This was like a couple of years ago and I had just stopped by at my pal's business and was looking at the walls while he was ending the call !

 

[salarsikander]

The other side of the story. Pakistani civilians are found to be disorganized and accepting of corruption. Those with party affiliations are found to be egotistical and corrupt on average. There is this itch to resort to LINKS to get things done irrespective of being right or wrong. And take a look at how many political parties have popped up by now. Who will fix this problem?

That still doesnt negate the Fact that MOD's Department of Armed Of Pakistan's Branch Army has no right to interfere in politics by breaking ones own faith

 

[blain2]

whats your thought on banning O/A-levels intake for ISSB.

I know bro. Perhaps it is harder to consider these days after what bajwa and asim have shown poor treatment to veterans' families, and ceasing their pensions etc..

I never thought of ISI being number 1 or in the first 10. I know they are human manpower heavy. Yes, they are good as far as Afg and India theatres are concerned. They have no int presence. We totally missed when India bought a large artic gear near 84. Indians could listen to some Gen convo with Musharraf when he was in China.

Perhaps, we severely lack hacking, spyware and surveillance capabilities. No satellites and remote sensing capabilities.

I hope they don't ban O/A levels from applying. Not sure if I knew about this. Why? I would think we would want all strata of the society in the national army. Not just the ones from government schools.

To your second point, all of the things you mention are capital heavy. Need money which is exactly what we don't have. However, what we do have a lot of is manpower. You know the PIA example.... Personnel to aircraft ratio of 260:1...(down from 550:1), the same goes elsewhere too.

 

[Goenitz]

The poor chap had nothing to lean on until the NCA was formed with a pivotal advisory role (on employment of nuclear weapons and green lighting the employment as the senior most representative of all of the armed forces of Pakistan) being assigned to CJCSC in Musharraf's time.

whats your take on promotion in Aug, conducted by civil/military officials (Turkey model)? Successful ahead and rest go home. Gen Tariq rightly said why not army should have 60 years limit like all govt jobs.

I think Lt Gen/Maj Gen must not get more than 3 months of service if they don't get a promotion. Brigadiers may work for 1 year and Col may serve for another 3 years.
Edit: I am assuming that you watched the whole program. That is why I am writing such short sentences.

 

[blain2]

what about the promotion in Aug, conducted by civil/military officials? Successful ahead and rest go home. I think Lt Gen/Maj Gen must not get more than 3 months service if they don't get a promotion. Brigadiers may work for 1 year and Col may serve for another 3 years.

Not sure what you mean by above. Usually, when officers, specially at the rank of Lt Gen are superseded and face the potential to have to report to a newly promoted junior officer (by PA number), they opt to retire. They can continue till their superannuation/retirement but the tradition is to avoid, oneself and the other officer, the embarrassment and go home.

 

[NooriNuth]

Because this is a slog for the long haul so you need to keep on pushing.

Nothing is completely done or written in stone yet.

Also, as we always say, if you want something really bad, you have to have the patience, the fight, the will to see it through.

Our problem is not getting to the state of "emancipation". It is what we do with it once we get it.

Post 1971, the opportunity with ZAB was lost. Post Zia, the opportunity with BB/NS was lost multiple times. Post Zardari, the opportunity was lost with IK/PTI. So our system cannot remain a repressive one like that of Egypt etc. It gives us opportunities to be free men and women with a voice of our own. But eventually when we do get the mandate of the people restored, what do our leaders do with that mandate? They fail us. This is not to say the military is any better. They fail us in governance too.

The conclusion is that our freedom of expression, will and to vote is something precious. When we get it, we have to hold all accountable and strive to make it work.

The biggest problem right now is that the military has a narcissist psychopath as it's head.
For comparison, during the entire operation zarb e Azb 8000 armed terrorists were arrested.
During current operation zarb e PMLN , post 9th May, supported by Psycho COAS Asim Munir 10,000 unarmed men women and children have been arrested.
It gets even worse.
All the 8000 terrorists arrested during Zarb e Azb were given trial by courts and their bail was honoured and they were released. Almost all of them were released by courts .
Right now , none of the arrested were presented in courts, no bails granted were honoured.

 

[Goenitz]

Not sure what you mean by above. Usually, when officers, specially at the rank of Lt Gen are superseded and face the potential to have to report to a newly promoted junior officer (by PA number), they opt to retire. They can continue till their superannuation/retirement but the tradition is to avoid, oneself and the other officer, the embarrassment and go home.

sorry bro.. It was shorthand writing.
those points were raised in the program.

 

[Jango]

The CJCSC position should rotate among the three services as done by most professional militaries. This will reduce the prestige of the COAS position and help stabilize the military-civilian relations.

The biggest curse on Pakistan is the presence of an unchecked COAS who has total command over the country.

I believe Gen Tariq said that since our army is exponentially larger than the PAF or PN, it makes sense to have one from Army. I partly agree with him, since our air force and navy act in support of the army rather than a completely independent arm, like the USN.

 

[LeGenD]

Case in point, during Raheel Sharif and NS's time, the anti-terror policy, and to a certain extent foreign policy was completely outsourced to the army. The civilian govt did not want to have to do anything with this. They were like 'Raheel sahab aap yeh pakrain, aur aapn janain, hamain tang mat karna'. Same goes to a certain extent for PTI, they outsourced the anti-terror policy somewhat to the military, but took back a lot of the space that was conceded before.

Ironically, this was the time when the army did its job. It conducted COIN in North Waziristan and Karachi. This was a marked shift from the paralysis that was witnessed in times of Kiyani and PPP. Something to reflect upon.

This is exactly why some disagreements came up. The PTI and estab ALWAYS fought on foreign policy issues. Ask anyone if you know in the Foreign Office or even in MO Dte from that time, they will agree with you. Nawaz Sharif was the least interested in what happens on the foreign front, apart from India dosti zindabad. He had left it all to the military. Now recall why we did not have a foreign minister during that time, or why we had Kh Asif or Khurram Dastagir posing as one. Because the FO at the time was being run by the army.

PTI with SMQ tried to wrestle some control back, and actually did so, but it was not well received by the army. Actually not the army, as Gen Tariq says, the fighting troops don't really give a damn. It's a select few at the top and the intelligence apparatus. So it created trouble for them. Iran issue, Ukraine/Russia issue, India relations, all the things are now coming out into the open slowly.

PTI-led government pretended that all is well with the Establishment in its press conferences. Corruption continued like business as usual with selective applications of accountability. PTI-led government was having its own tussles with the judiciary. Khan's political adversaries managed to regroup and pulled strings in all avenues to their advantage. Soft corner was shown to terrorists/separatists yet again. Terrorism has resurged, not surprisingly. And Supreme Court approved No Confidence Motion against PTI-led government.

Now blameshifting continues as usual. No side wants to admit its mistakes.

I just wonder why Khan could not see this train wreck and step down gracefully to regroup with a new team and take its chances in the next general elections. Is he too self-absorbed to see developing problems around him or he was misled by opportunists?

 

[Jango]

1, 2 and 3 are essentially the American model. It definitely has its pros, albeit the con is that its an expensive proposition for Pakistan, however, in light of consolidation of too much power in the hands of the CoAS, the idea is to make the post of CoAS similar to the CJCSC. How you do that is by moving formations/troops over to the regional commands with their own 4 stars so here goes 111 Bde away from the CoAS etc.

Honestly, even without 1 and 2 above, we need a CoAS who would jealously guard the profession of soldiering. This means he would countenance no interference from the politicians and he would ensure that he runs away from politics and keeps his entire constituency completely detached from the politics. Unfortunately our domestic and foreign policy has been bastardized so much that most CoAS would find it hard to detach themselves from the mess (and some probably even relish this opportunity to play king-maker).

Well said.

But it's more of a vicious cycle, bad COAS, bad politician, bad COAS, bad politician. How do you get a professional COAS? Just pray?

 

[HAIDER]

1, 2 and 3 are essentially the American model. It definitely has its pros, albeit the con is that its an expensive proposition for Pakistan, however, in light of consolidation of too much power in the hands of the CoAS, the idea is to make the post of CoAS similar to the CJCSC. How you do that is by moving formations/troops over to the regional commands with their own 4 stars so here goes 111 Bde away from the CoAS etc.

Honestly, even without 1 and 2 above, we need a CoAS who would jealously guard the profession of soldiering. This means he would countenance no interference from the politicians and he would ensure that he runs away from politics and keeps his entire constituency completely detached from the politics. Unfortunately our domestic and foreign policy has been bastardized so much that most CoAS would find it hard to detach themselves from the mess (and some probably even relish this opportunity to play king-maker).

Sir, In Pakistan case, I would see military as " silent guard". It should appear from the dark, when needed in extreme turmoil in national security issues.

 

[Jango]

It relies more on human intelligence than technology.

It's just a manpower intensive outfit which isn't omnipotent or omnipresent.

This.

I don't think people truly appreciate the scale at which this manpower operation is carried out. The human network of intelligence in Pakistan, when combined with that of the SB and CTD etc, is truly pretty amazing. More so, the fact that such an old method works this effectively is impressive.