Lord of the Rings and the Tolkien Universe

[Nilgiri]

Great thread @Jungibaaz

And here I am dragging LOTR into other threads lol. A wizard should know better!

The Entwives question is one that is widely discussed with little to no explanation from the books, the answer is elusive to say the least. I discussed a lot of similar things at length in this thread.

Old Man Willow was indeed a Huorn, no idea of his history though, interesting thing, Bombadil's line to Old Man Willow, was given to Treebeard in the films as he commanded an angry Huorn to release Merry and Pippin. Bombadil and Treebeard are two natural comedians, everytime I read their parts of the story, it's usually with a massive smile on my face and an occasional chuckle. And all three are masters of the woodland domain, so it would be an interesting meet no doubt.

I think old man willow is a bit more complicated than a straight huorn, given he cannot uproot and move...or maybe he just chooses not to. I guess a bit of Bombadil wore off on him (as far as not fitting into any real clear category).....would love to see what their entire backstory is between them.

Yeah Bombadil is a real funny character for sure. A pity they left him out of the movie (though my biggest complaint for the movie will always be the faramir portrayal). That huorn scene (that treebeard rescues them from) is also in the extra long extended scene version I believe.

I have read all of tolkiens works multiple times each....some as many as 20 times. It is only the silmarillion that I read much fewer: 3 times in all (though many times I go back to refer to smaller sections of it).

Just the other day I was talking to a friend of mine about how dragons come in many different sizes. What some may not have in size and strength, they make up with cunning and deception....like in the Turin Turambar story.

 

[Solomon2]

I re-read LOTR recently and was rather surprised at one loose end that was never wrapped up: while Treebeard asked the hobbits to report any news on the Entwives, Sam never informed him that strange trees had been seen walking through the Shire shortly before the War of the Ring.

 

[Nilgiri]

I re-read LOTR recently and was rather surprised at one loose end that was never wrapped up: while Treebeard asked the hobbits to report any news on the Entwives, Sam never informed him that strange trees had been seen walking through the Shire shortly before the War of the Ring.

These are hints that the entwives are around....but enough mystery to cloak it.

I believe it was Sam's cousin that spotted them in the distance....and Sam had reason to doubt his account.

Did Sam and Treebeard actually meet? Its been a long time since I read the books.

 

[Jungibaaz]

Great thread @Jungibaaz

And here I am dragging LOTR into other threads lol. A wizard should know better!

Lol, it's good we moved it here, less derailment on the other end.

I think old man willow is a bit more complicated than a straight huorn, given he cannot uproot and move...or maybe he just chooses not to. I guess a bit of Bombadil wore off on him (as far as not fitting into any real clear category).....would love to see what their entire backstory is between them.

Yeah Bombadil is a real funny character for sure. A pity they left him out of the movie (though my biggest complaint for the movie will always be the faramir portrayal). That huorn scene (that treebeard rescues them from) is also in the extra long extended scene version I believe.

I was more interested in Bombadil himself, some people don't like him and I understand that. But he's easily one of my favourite characters in the whole trilogy. And I agree with you on the portrayal of Faramir, there was a fair bit missing in his persona.

I have read all of tolkiens works multiple times each....some as many as 20 times. It is only the silmarillion that I read much fewer: 3 times in all (though many times I go back to refer to smaller sections of it).

Just the other day I was talking to a friend of mine about how dragons come in many different sizes. What some may not have in size and strength, they make up with cunning and deception....like in the Turin Turambar story.

I've not read all of them, and certainly not all of those multiple times, though I probably will read some of them again in the future.

And you're right, a lot of other mythologies don't pay attention to the details on dragons that much, Tolkien's dragons vary greatly, those that can fly like Smaug and Anacalagon, and those that can't like Glaurung who plays a huge role in the story of Turin Turambar. Personally, Glaurung is my favourite, he's the father of all dragons, he's huge and powerful, he's a tactician and malice is almost unrivalled.

His quotes are spectacular too.

So great was his fury that everybody fled before him. He passed over the bridge and hewed his way towards the captives, who have been herded on the terraces before the doors. But then Glaurung issued suddenly from the gaping doors and lay between them and the bridge. And the evil spirit that was in him spoke: “Hail Turin, son of Hurin. Well met!” Then Turin leaped forth and tried to hit the dragon, but Glaurung evaded the strike and directed his gaze to the face of Turin. And so terrible and powerful was the magic of his spirit that Turin froze at place, unable to move, nor talk. Glaurung spoke again, taunting Turin, and said: “Evil have been all thy ways, son of Hurin. Thankless fosterling, outlaw, slayer of thy friend, thief of love, usurper of Nargothrond, captain foolhardly, and deserter of thy kin. As thralls thy mother and thy sister live in Dor-lomin, in misery and want. Thou art arrayed as a prince, butthey go in rags; and for thee they yearn, but thou carest not for that. Glad may be thy father to learn that he hath such a son; as learn he shall.” And Turin, being under the dragon’s spell, believed every word and he saw himself as in a mirror misshapen by malice, and loathed that which he saw.

And while he was yet held by the eyes of the dragon in torment of mind and unable to move, the Orcs drove away the herded captives and they passed near Turin and crossed over the bridge. Among them was Finduilas, and she cried out to Turin, but he was not able to help her. And not until the captives vanished in the distance withdrew Glaurung his gaze. Then Turin stirred slowly, as one waking from a hideous dream. And sprang again upon the dragon, but he was swift and coiling back swiftly towered above Turin and said: “Nay! At least thou art valiant; beyond all whom I have met. And they lie who say that we of our part do not honor the valor of our foes. See now! I offer thee freedom. Go to thy kin, if thou canst. Get thee gone! And if Elf or Man be left to make tale of these days, then surely in scorn will they name thee, if you spurnest this gift.”

Turin, being yet bemused by the dragon’s magic, believed him – as were he treating with a foe that could know pity. Turning away, he sped over the bridge, but Glaurung still had more to say: “Haste thee now, son of Hurin, to Dor – lomin! Or perhaps the orcs shall once again come before thee. And if thou tarry for Finduilas, then never shalt thou see Morwen again, and never at all shalt thou see Nienor thy sister, and they will curse thee.” And then he laughed, because he had fulfilled his master’s errand. Deciding to amuse himself, Glaurung sent fort his blast, and burned all around. Then he routed forth all the ransacking Orcs, and drove them away, denying them their plunder. The bridge he broke down and cast into the foam of Narog; and being at last secure he gathered all the hoards into the innermost hall of Nargothrond and lay upon them to rest.

I re-read LOTR recently and was rather surprised at one loose end that was never wrapped up: while Treebeard asked the hobbits to report any news on the Entwives, Sam never informed him that strange trees had been seen walking through the Shire shortly before the War of the Ring.

I hadn't noticed this myself. But now that you mention it, here's the quote:

‘All right,’ said Sam, laughing with the rest. ‘But what about these Tree-men, these giants, as you might call them? They do say that one bigger than a tree was seen up away beyond the North Moors not long back.’ ‘Who’s they ?’ ‘My cousin Hal for one. He works for Mr. Boffin at Overhill and goes up to the North farthing for the hunting. He saw one.’ ‘Says he did, perhaps. Your Hal’s always saying he’s seen things; and maybe he sees things that ain’t there.’ ‘But this one was as big as an elm tree, and walking –walking seven yards to a stride, if it was an inch.’ ‘Then I bet it wasn’t an inch. What he saw was an elm tree, as like as not.’

I always thought they may have been in the Old Forest, since it's similar to Fangorn and since there are trees similar to those found in Fangorn, there are Huorns and there's Old Man Willow in the Old Forest. And there's also the chance that Huorns are Ents that grow more docile and tree-like.

To this theory however, if it were so and Tolkien intended that they were in the Old Forest, it would make sense that the quote with Sam's cousin would've mentioned them in the East Farthing and not the North Farthing, unless he happened to see one wandering as they have been described to wander.

Also, there's this from his letters:

There are or were no Ents in the older stories – because the Ents in fact only presented themselves to my sight, without premeditation or any previous conscious knowledge, when I came to Chapter IV of Book Three. But since Treebeard shows knowledge of the drowned land of Beleriand (west of the Mountains of Lune) in which the main action of the war against Morgoth took place, they will have to come in. But as the War in Beleriand was at the time of the hobbits' meeting some 7,000 years ago, no doubt they were not quite the same: less wise, less strong, shyer and moreuncommunicable (their own language simpler, but their knowledge of other tongues very small).

Letter #247; Letters of Tolkien

Which would suggest that he had not created Ents at the time that he was writing the first quote with Sam from FOTR. Unless of course he edited it in later.

I would guess there isn't a location for them that Tolkien had in mind, but on the off-chance that he did, it would probably be in the Shire region or the Old Forest in my opinion, unless there's some better theories.

 

[Nilgiri]

And I agree with you on the portrayal of Faramir, there was a fair bit missing in his persona.

Well the main thing that annoyed me in the movie is he is "seduced" by the ring and only later "rejects" it and lets Frodo go on his way.

Whereas in the book he outright is one of the very few humans (in a clear position to take it) that does not succumb to its temptation.

But fear no more! I would not take this thing, if it lay by the highway. Not were Minas Tirith falling in ruin and I alone could save her, so, using the weapon of the Dark Lord for her good and my glory. No, I do not wish for such triumphs, Frodo son of Drogo

Its why some people nicknamed him in the movie as "far-away-from-the-story- ir"

The whole eowyn faramir love story was never explored in the movie either. But I guess little time for all those kinds of things.