What's new

London fire vs. 9-11 fire

.
After 12 hours, wrapped in furious flames of fire from the bottom up to the top floor, this building is still standing.
Just saying.

@MastanKhan
Your comments?






THE GRENFELL TOWER BUILDING WAS RECENTLY REFURBISHED AND, TO MAKE IT MORE ATTRACTIVE TO VIEW, FITTED ON THE OUTSIDE WITH SHEETING (WHICH APPARENTLY BURNED LIKE CRAZY). WHICH IS A BIT DIFFERENT FROM SUFFERING AN AIRCRAFT IMPACT THAT CAUSES MASSIVE INTERNAL DAMAGE AND A HIGH TEMP AVIATION FUEL FIRE ON THE INSIDE. ALSO, THIS BUILDING ISN'T LIKELY CONSTRUCTED IN THE SAME WAY AS WTC BUILDING WERE (IT BEING SUBSTANTIALLY SMALLER, LESS TALL, JUST 24 FLOORS RATHER THAN 110). IT ALSO SERVES A DIFFERENT PURPOSE (ACCOMMODATION RATHER THAN OFFICES) WHICH PROBABLY LEADS TO A DIFFERENT INTERNAL STRUCTURAL LAYOUT.

JUST SAYING...

1280px-World_Trade_Center_Building_Design_with_Floor_and_Elevator_Arrangement.svg.png


"Grenfell Tower was recently fitted with exterior aluminum cladding. Christopher Miers, the managing director of Probyn-Miers, a forensic architecture firm that examines buildings that are defective or fire damaged, said: “It’s a possibility that there are areas in the external wall system that played a role and it’s an area that would need to be considered.”

Whether the cladding had a role in this case was not clear, but such cladding, which often consists of aluminum sheets sandwiched over some kind of insulation, has been seen as a factor in past blazes, including three major high-rise fires in Dubai.

The United States and Britain have tougher regulations on the potential flammability of internal material used in cladding, but other factors — such as how panels are made and installed — could come into play.
...
David King, a building engineer in Maidstone, England, said the cladding might have helped the blaze leap from floor to floor.

“I’ve seen how the flames were coming out of the windows and going up the outside, so that’s one possible explanation,” he said.
...
In May 2016, the building underwent a $12.8 million renovation, including the cladding, double-glazed windows and a communal heating system.
"
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/06/14/world/europe/uk-london-fire-grenfell-tower.html?_r=0
 
Last edited:
.
Technical aspects, which propagandists do not want people to look.
1- Fire & Heat travels from bottom up.
2- Petrol burn very fast, what we see burning is insulations clothing, furniture..
3- There are always automatic fire protection systems.
4- Buildings structure of reinforced concrete is non collapsible, just because of common building fire.
5- Structure of twin towers, was strongest of them all.

JUST SAYING...

In your over excitement, you are overlooking that London fire was continuous for 12 hours and even more.
Sure, its always building material which catches fire.
Except concrete, every thing is combustible in building fire.
Still you can't blame aluminum cladding as a cause of fire, although it was falling off after melting.
There are fire extinguishing systems in any building, due to human negligence, they may fail in one building but not in two. Where as building 7 collapsed without fire and impact, as you claim falsely.
 
.
Technical aspects, which propagandists do not want people to look.
1- Fire & Heat travels from bottom up.
2- Petrol burn very fast, what we see burning is insulations clothing, furniture..
3- There are always automatic fire protection systems.
4- Buildings structure of reinforced concrete is non collapsible, just because of common building fire.
5- Structure of twin towers, was strongest of them all.

1.) Fire and Heat dissipate upward yes, but WEIGHT dissipate downward. Grenfell Tower was caught up in fire at 2/3 floor, which mean the fire weaken point have 21-23 story of concrete on top of the level that was on that floor. On the other hand, Both Towers was hit at the 93rd and 73rd floor directly, on a 116 story building, set aside the drag coefficient that suffer up the wind direction(Wind also pushes the tower structure and further weaken them, the taller the structure was, the longer the moment, hence a larger force pulling the building from side to side.) The rubble (the concrete) alone would have an extra 1000 tons to 3600 tons of weight sitting on World Trade Center rather than the Grenfell tower (5 floor to 43 floor more, each floor have 150 tons concrete on average), also put into the effect that the plane did damage the internal structure inside World Trade Center and the fire did not damage the internal structure of Grenfell tower, It's no surprise Grenfell did not collapse.

2.) Airliner does not use Petrol, they use Jet Fuel, Jet-A to be exact, which is higher density than Petrol, and hence can burn longer, and will not evaporate easily. If we use Petrol instead of Jet-A, the engine will not start, as the engine need to be able to rev to certain ram before they can produce lift, that is why most airline do not have power setting lower than 65% engine rev. That is called ideal thrust.

3.) Considering World Trade Center is a sealed structure (The window is not opened) to a open structure, a effect called Backdraft is created in a closed/sealed environment, which is by adding a sudden influx of air into a burning flame will lead to the fire reaching a higher burning point and explosion power.

Another thing about sealed environment is that fire is localized in a sealed environment compare to an open environment, because wind spread fire, opening window allow breeze to move thru a fire will spread a fire, which in this case is better because the temperature is even when a fire is spread out. Accord to Brinks Fire Safety, concentrated fire can leads to 5 times the burning point than a spread fire, because the fire does not move, it induce more heat as the fire burn, until it was starve of oxygen or carry away by wind.

4.) This is a common misconception, heat can damage concrete by "Cracking" and weaken the concrete. TO understand how this happen you need to first understand how concrete are made, cement was mixed with water to sand and aggregator to make concrete, there are certain percentage of water inside a concrete slab, depending on the grade, water content may varies.

When we burn a concrete slab, we effectively vaporize the water content inside a concrete slab, but since it was mixed with sand and aggregator, the steam "from burning water" would be trap between layer of cement, and that steam would kept expanding by heat and eventually the pressure would crack open a concrete slab allowing the steam to escape, burning for any amount of time can damage a reinforced concrete slab. Again, depending on the grade of concrete. Damages varies.

5.) Another misconception, any structure that tall into the sky would have to be flexible instead of rigid, meaning they can be bend instead of standing tall, otherwise, the wind and earth movement (earth move everyday) would have pull down a tall building.

Therefore, a tall building would have to be structurally weaker than a lower/smaller building to allow movement of the building to adjust the force with wind gust pushing and earth movement.

In your over excitement, you are overlooking that London fire was continuous for 12 hours and even more.
Sure, its always building material which catches fire.
Except concrete, every thing is combustible in building fire.
Still you can't blame aluminum cladding as a cause of fire, although it was falling off after melting.
There are fire extinguishing systems in any building, due to human negligence, they may fail in one building but not in two. Where as building 7 collapsed without fire and impact, as you claim falsely.

Building 7 was damaged by debris from North Tower, and weakening a load bearing post on the south under the 44th floor, structurally, it could have been the same damage on North Tower itself, (Dropping 73 floor would most likely hit terminal velocity)

WTC 1,2 and 7 does not collapse because of fire, it collapse because it was structurally weaken, fire alone cannot do much damage if the foundation is undamaged but an explosion inside a building could lead to internal structural damage.

In reality, I don't know if you had any demolition training, if you have, you will know this. To collapse something, you need to take out a load bearing parts, allowing the weight of the structure to collapse on itself, a fire, generally does not weaken load bearing part, except in the time when it was burn to a melting point or the load bearing part is faulty. Building do not generally collapse because of burning alone, even WTC was on fire in 1975, it does not collapse, it only collapse unless the load bearing parts is damaged, that is why you always put charges on a load bearing beam if you want a structure to collapse.
 
Last edited:
.
Building 7 was damaged by debris from North Tower, and weakening a load bearing post on the south under the 44th floor, structurally, it could have been the same damage on North Tower itself, (Dropping 73 floor would most likely hit terminal velocity)

I'm sorry but, was it result of investigations or you consulted some uni professor?
 
.
I'm sorry but, was it result of investigations or you consulted some uni professor?

No, but photo

A standard "RETANGLE" or "SQUARE" building would have 4 Load Bearing post, one on each side, on the ex-structure. A better foundation would have call for 4 more post inside near the center of gravity, however, in this case, the structural damage toward the central foundation does not matter Because the building is on fire.

wtc7-side-damage1.jpg


This picture show Tower 7 was damaged on the Southern Corner, one of the load bearing side of the structure, now, if you have a chair with 4 leg, go cut off a large piece on 1 of the leg (Don't care which one) like the parts missing from the photo above. and you start push weight against the top of the chair (Pile up a few books, maybe) and start a small fire on that leg, see how long would the chair hold before it collapsed on the side??

Tower 7 was not, like you said, undamaged, and was not on fire.

wtc7-fire.jpg
 
.
wtc7-side-damage1-jpg.403731


Corner damage means nothing to twin towers.
There was inner ring of structure as well.
Some one planted some explosives there by design, otherwise plane didn't hit there. Why than such superficial damages were seen on both buildings alike?

WTC 1,2 and 7 does not collapse because of fire, it collapse because it was structurally weaken, a fire alone cannot do much damage if the foundation is undamaged but an explosion inside a building could lead to internal structural damage.

It was fire and heat, which lead to collapse of all 3 towers.
Specimen from collapse site were examined in labs and I'm referring to that.

Tower 7 was not, like you said, undamaged, and was not on fire.

What caused identical fires on tower 7 and what was its significance?

A better foundation would have call for 4 more post inside near the center of gravity
there you go.
 
.
In your over excitement, you are overlooking that London fire was continuous for 12 hours and even more.
Sure, its always building material which catches fire.
Except concrete, every thing is combustible in building fire.
Still you can't blame aluminum cladding as a cause of fire, although it was falling off after melting.
There are fire extinguishing systems in any building, due to human negligence, they may fail in one building but not in two. Where as building 7 collapsed without fire and impact, as you claim falsely.
I've not claimed aluminium cladding was the source of the fire, it has been pointed out as possible reason for a quick spreading of fire, on the outside of the building.
The link I provided to the newspaper discusses the status of fire extinguishing systems in the UK building. I've not spoken about extinguishing systems in the NYC WTC complex.
I've clearly referred to the two main NYC WTC buildings (the big towers, see illustration and reference to aircraft impact), not to WTC-7 (which was damaged, by both heavy debris from the north WTC tower and subsequent fire), about which building I've not said anything, hence cannot have claimed anything "falsely"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7_World_Trade_Center#9.2F11_and_collapse

Very kindly be very carefull with accusing me falsely (not to mention unsubstantiatedly).
 
Last edited:
.
Infact buildings collapsed due to collapsing core not the superficial damage to corners.
 
.
It was fire and heat, which lead to collapse of all 3 towers.

What caused identical fires on tower 7 and what was its significance?
Earlier you claimed WTC 7 suffered no fire. See post #3.
 
.
wtc7-side-damage1-jpg.403731


Corner damage means nothing to twin towers.
There was inner ring of structure as well.
Some one planted some explosives there by design, otherwise plane didn't hit there. Why than such superficial damages were seen on both buildings alike?

How do you know that is from explosive, not by debris? Let me give you a hint, explosive damage "CHARRED" the structure, debris hit don't, look at the picture again, and see how the damage is done?

The question regarding North and South Tower is not relevant, just because they did not collapse because of that damage, that does not mean tower 7 wouldn't either.

By the way, you can actually see the load bearing beam being broken on the picture above on Tower 7, it's not because it was a side damage, it's because the load bearing beam is broken, that's the reason why the tower felt.



It was fire and heat, which lead to collapse of all 3 towers.
Specimen from collapse site were examined in labs and I'm referring to that.

How do you know? To be precise, there exist fire damage and heat damage on specimen, that can also mean the structure was damage. Because you don't know that said specimen is damage by heat/fire then suffer from a structural failure? or It suffer a structural failure first, then was damaged by Fire and Heat Expansion. Do remember there should be 2 structural failure of component, one when the structure failed and collapse, one when the structure hit the ground. Not just one structural failure.



What caused identical fires on tower 7 and what was its significance?

Fire can be caused by many factor, from a flash fire, to a electrical fire. When the debris collapse on something like an air-conditioning unit. It would have exploded the air-condition unit, and if there exist item that can burn like a fuel, like paper, towel, wire and stuff to feed the fire, it will trigger a massive fire.

There may also be "Burning Debris" that felt and hit Tower 7. Don't forget Twin Tower was burning at that moment too.

there you go.

Did you read my post? It was not relevant how the centre of the gravity played out, Because the fire will also damage and weaken the foundation AS A WHOLE, instead of partial weaken by physical damage done to the side, the fact that it take 7 hours for Tower 7 to collapse from burning is the reason why the structure as a whole was weaken. The Load Bearing Damage to the side is a trigger point. The fire deal enough damage as a whole is the reason why the building collapse.
 
.
Fire can be caused by many factor, from a flash fire, to a electrical fire. When the debris collapse on something like an air-conditioning unit. It would have exploded the air-condition unit, and if there exist item that can burn like a fuel, like paper, towel, wire and stuff to feed the fire, it will trigger a massive fire.

You think engineers are stupid to put explosive equipment in buildings?
Cold air is pushed into the building by air ducts, there's nothing there to explode like a bomb in compressor.
When you have no idea, how electrical systems are designed and tested in US, don't state nonsense.
Of course electrical systems can fail, due to human negligence and sabotage but than its failure of US standards and their implementation. Still it can't fail in 3 buildings simultaneously and suddenly.

There may also be "Burning Debris" that felt and hit Tower 7

There were no burning debris, explosion on claddings have no explanation.
Building 7 was far.

Here's a real picture of twin tower structure. look at the steel size, this can't be effected by a fire ball of airplane fuel.


 
.
1.) Fire and Heat dissipate upward yes, but WEIGHT dissipate downward. Grenfell Tower was caught up in fire at 2/3 floor, which mean the fire weaken point have 21-23 story of concrete on top of the level that was on that floor. On the other hand, Both Towers was hit at the 93rd and 73rd floor directly, on a 116 story building, set aside the drag coefficient that suffer up the wind direction(Wind also pushes the tower structure and further weaken them, the taller the structure was, the longer the moment, hence a larger force pulling the building from side to side.) The rubble (the concrete) alone would have an extra 1000 tons to 3600 tons of weight sitting on World Trade Center rather than the Grenfell tower (5 floor to 43 floor more, each floor have 150 tons concrete on average), also put into the effect that the plane did damage the internal structure inside World Trade Center and the fire did not damage the internal structure of Grenfell tower, It's no surprise Grenfell did not collapse.

2.) Airliner does not use Petrol, they use Jet Fuel, Jet-A to be exact, which is higher density than Petrol, and hence can burn longer, and will not evaporate easily. If we use Petrol instead of Jet-A, the engine will not start, as the engine need to be able to rev to certain ram before they can produce lift, that is why most airline do not have power setting lower than 65% engine rev. That is called ideal thrust.

3.) Considering World Trade Center is a sealed structure (The window is not opened) to a open structure, a effect called Backdraft is created in a closed/sealed environment, which is by adding suddent influx of air into a burning flame will lead to the fire reaching a higher burning point and explosion power.

Another thing about sealed environment is that fire is localized in a sealed environment compare to an open environment, because wind spread fire, opening window allow breeze to move thru a fire will spread a fire, which in this case is better because the temperature is even when a fire is spread out. Accord to Brinks Fire Safety, concentrated fire can leads to 5 times the burning point than a spread fire, because the fire does not move, it induce more heat as the fire burn, until it was starve of oxygen or carry away by wind.

4.) This is a common misconception, concreted can damage concrete by "Cracking" and weaken the concrete. TO understand how this happen you need to first understand how concrete are made, cement was mixed with water to sand and aggregator to make concrete, there are certain percentage of water inside a concrete slab, depending on the grade, water content may varies.

When we burn a concrete slab, we effectively vaporize the water content inside a concrete slab, but since it was mixed with sand and aggregator, the steam "from burning water" would be trap between layer of cement, and that steam would kept expanding by heat and eventually the pressure would crack open a concrete slab allowing the steam to escape, burning for any amount of time can damage a reinforced concrete slab. Again, depending on the grade of concrete. Damages varies.

5.) Another misconception, any structure that tall into the sky would have to be flexible instead of rigid, meaning they can be bend instead of standing tall, otherwise, the wind and earth movement (earth move everyday) would have pull down a tall building.

Therefore, a tall build would have to be structurally weaker than a lower building to allow movement of the building to adjust the force with wind gust pushing and earth movement.



Building 7 was damaged by debris from North Tower, and weakening a load bearing post on the south under the 44th floor, structurally, it could have been the same damage on North Tower itself, (Dropping 73 floor would most likely hit terminal velocity)

WTC 1,2 and 7 does not collapse because of fire, it collapse because it was structurally weaken, a fire alone cannot do much damage if the foundation is undamaged but an explosion inside a building could lead to internal structural damage.

In reality, I don't know if you had any demolition training, if you have, you will know this. To collapse something, you need to take out a load bearing parts, allowing the weight of the structure to collapse on itself, a fire, generally does not weaken load bearing part, except in the time when it was burn to a melting point or the load bearing part is faulty. Building do not generally collapse because of burning alone, even WTC was on fire in 1975, it does not collapse, it only collapse unless the load bearing parts is damaged, that is why you always put charges on a load bearing beam if you want a structure to collapse.

Please watch this lecture when you have the time.

 
.
I always said the same that no one qualify for discussions, based on random news reports suiting their personal bias.
You need to discuss logically, use scientific arguments.
There is plenty of examples for non-techs. just like 12 hours long London fire which endorse the basic fact that building fire can't reach to the levels that it melts the structure in mysterious way.
Jet fuel can simply create a big fireball with causing high temperatures momentarily but that heat can't travel to core of ALL structure, in a matter of seconds.
Twin towers structural design is a whole lot different ball game.
 
.
Leaving all conspiracy theories aside, it is clear that the following reasons are responsible for the complete destruction of the twin towers.
1. WTC were constructed using steel with little concrete covering, the strength of the buildings were in the core steel structure as well as the sides of the building.
Concrete was not used because the buildings had to be constructed quickly.
Concrete requires time to harden so was not used.
2. The jet fuel burns at much higher temperatures and will melt or severely deform steel thus greatly reducing it's load bearing capacity.
3. The twin towers collapsed because of the impact and high temperature fire.
When the core gave way the entire building collapsed like a deck of cards. The weight of the crumbling upper floors were too much for the floor just below it thus the collapse was unstoppable.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Pakistan Affairs Latest Posts

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom