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Literacy rate and education standard in Pakistan

Hello all! I'm new to the forum and looking forward to constructive (even if sometimes contentious) discussions with fellow members in the days to come.

I'm curious to understand historical, cultural, and political reasons for why the literacy rate and educational standard in Pakistan/ with Pakistani people are so low. While I know South Asia was historically deprived, the other countries seem to have fared much better and made progress in literacy and education by leaps and bounds, at least when compared to Pakistan.

The other point is more of an observation. As I come across folks from many different backgrounds and cultures, including several from various parts of South Asia, those from Pakistan come across as less liberal and less versed in being able to hold their own in conversations and discussions as they relate to topics of science, technology, world politics, world history, and such. Similarly, their comfort level with the english language is much lower than other South Asians or even those from Middle East and Africa (I mention that only to wonder if that may be a reason for them being behind the curve compared to others, due to availability of enough/ quality educational content in your local languages).

Also, the frame of mind/ thinking patterns seem to be totally different, misaligned with how most of the others think (not just other South Asians in this case, but even Middle East, Africa, Europe, other parts of Asia, and certainly North America). Seems like the rest of the world has converged on a relatively singular/ well-aligned view of the world and how things work, but Pakistanis seem to think/ live in their own world that very rarely resonates with the rest of the world.

What are the reasons for this? Would love to get people's thoughts on this topic!
Can i ask where did you meet these Pakistanis and qhat where their backgrounds, if you happen to know.
 
@Brad Many valid reasons have been addressed by the other members posts on this thread already. I will instead focus more on the other aspect of your original post which delved into the different experiences of the other nations in the region with regards to literacy rates. If we focus on India and Pakistan specifically we can see that the colonial experiences and more importantly the elite that inherited power from the British in 1947 were very different.

To begin with significant differences existed between the colonial experiences of Muslims and Hindus living in British India. These were driven by a multitude of factors and varied with time. Initially for example the British actively discriminated in favor of the Hindu community so as to reduce the prestige and power of the pre-colonial Muslim elite. This anti-Muslim British view was reinforced by the events of 1857 in which Muslims participated in disproportionately large numbers in the anti-British revolt and the unwilling focal point of the rebellion was the Mughal Emperor Bahadur Shah Zafar. Deep mistrust of the Muslim populace resulted in the British enacting reforms which favored other communities. A prime example is their language policy where Persian was replaced with Urdu/Hindi as the official language and in turn Urdu was completely removed as an official language in some provinces where it had previously been official. The intent of the British was clear, to remove any semblance of the pre-British power structure completely. In the latter days of British India this anti-Muslim stance gradually loosened as the Indian National Congress became more and more a threat but the fact of the matter is that owing to their position as the preceding dominant political force in South Asia, the British saw Muslims as a big threat and acted accordingly.

All of this had a significant impact on the literacy rates of the two communities. To quote Latika Chaudhary and Jared Rubin (The two have written an interesting piece which is available for free and is relevant to your question link: http://www.asrec.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/10/Rubin-Hindu_Muslim-Literacy-ASREC09.pdf).:

Average Muslim literacy was below average Hindu literacy in this period (in 1911, the male Hindu literacy rate was 13.1% and the male Muslim literacy rate was 6.8%),

What is even more evident is that in the provinces of British India which became Pakistan there were serious divisions in literacy as far as the religious communities were concerned. Punjab where more than half of Pakistans population lives is a prime example. In 1911 the literacy rate of Punjabi Hindus was 11.5% and Punjabi Muslims 2.6%. Almost all of the Punjabi Hindus left for India in 1947 meaning that Pakistan inherited a province where a much smaller proportion of the population could read and write in comparison to its counterpart in India. The point I am making is that India and Pakistan simply did not have the same starting point as many people seem to think. Just because the two nations were part of the former British India does not mean their respective experiences of colonialism were the same.

This moves me to my second point which is the presence of feudalism in Pakistan and how this colonial heritage has actively suppressed the growth of literacy in Pakistan. The dynamics of the provinces which form Pakistan were very different from those in India. Whereas India saw the growth of industrial and economic hubs like Bombay and Calcutta during the colonial era, Pakistan saw the British invest heavily in the canal colony project which irrigated vast amounts of former barren land. In fact Pakistan today possesses the largest canal network in the world and the Punjab aptly became known as the "granary of India". The point here is that whereas India society was gradually moving towards cities albeit marginally and a new urban native upper middle class was emerging, in Pakistan the trend was the opposite. The colonial period saw the rise of feudal clans which were subservient to their British masters in return for domestic autonomy.

This difference was clearly evident in the makeup of the two political parties which led the Pakistani and Indian independence movements namely the Muslim League and the Indian National Congress respectively. Whereas the likes of Gandhi, Nehru and Patel were from the urban middle and upper middle-class backgrounds, the Muslim League with the exception of Jinnah was made up largely from feudal aristocrats like Liaqut Ali Khan of Punjab and Khawaja Nazimuddin of Bengal. A conflict of interest as such emerged post independence as this new feudal ruling elites interests were actively served by holding the populations move towards literacy and urbanization under control. In India meanwhile Nehru initiated agrarian reforms post Indian independence as him and his political class did not derive their financial influence from landholdings.

In summary to answer your question as to why other countries in the region like India have been able to make better progress in literacy and education I think it is therefore important to point out that the legacy of colonialism has played a major role as Pakistan started of behind India and inherited a political ruling class who has sought to keep things that way.
 
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I'm curious to understand historical, cultural, and political reasons for why the literacy rate and educational standard in Pakistan/ with Pakistani people are so low. While I know South Asia was historically deprived, the other countries seem to have fared much better and made progress in literacy and education by leaps and bounds, at least when compared to Pakistan.
The following are some of the reports related to education in Sindh (a province of Pakistan with around 50 million people) :

Provincial anti-corruption watchdog has found ‘corruption and misuse of authority in Sindh Education Department district Jacobabad’ involving illegal inducting of hundreds of fake teachers, getting illegal financial benefits in the name of fake employees’ retirement, pension and death claims from department and life insurance company and others.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/493881-

Anti-Corruption Establishment Sindh, Anti-Corruption Establishment (ACE) East Zone, rounded up Muhammad Hussain Soomro, Director Human Resource Schools Education Sindh, for allegedly taking bribe from 950 contractual IBA-passed teachers in the name of Minister Anti-Corruption for regularisation of their services.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/596253-

Agha Suhail Pathan, an officer of provincial service group, was posted as Chairman Sindh Textbook Board on October 26, 2017 was removed by Sindh government on February 14, 2018 following the alleged complaints of irregularities and financial mismanagement in the board.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/612715-

On the directions of Sindh Chief Minister Syed Murad Ali Shah, the Anti-Corruption Department has initiated inquiry against Vice-Chancellor University of Sindh Dr Fateh Muhammad Burfat on charges of misuse of authority, illegal appointments, postings and promotions and violation of rules.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/380231-

The Board of Intermediate Education Karachi (Biek) has lodged a complaint with the higher authorities against the officials of Sindh Inquiries and Anti-Corruption Establishment for allegedly harassing and hindering the board's official work.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/321868-

Sindh government’s Education Department is reluctant to take action against some highly influential private schools allegedly for charging self-enhanced fees, illegal Security fees and not obeying the directions of regularity authority ‘Sindh Education Department’s Directorate of Private Schools’; despite of so many complaints of parents, civil society activists and even elected representatives, The News learnt.
https://www.thenews.com.pk/print/235171-
 
Hello all! I'm new to the forum and looking forward to constructive (even if sometimes contentious) discussions with fellow members in the days to come.

I'm curious to understand historical, cultural, and political reasons for why the literacy rate and educational standard in Pakistan/ with Pakistani people are so low. While I know South Asia was historically deprived, the other countries seem to have fared much better and made progress in literacy and education by leaps and bounds, at least when compared to Pakistan.

The other point is more of an observation. As I come across folks from many different backgrounds and cultures, including several from various parts of South Asia, those from Pakistan come across as less liberal and less versed in being able to hold their own in conversations and discussions as they relate to topics of science, technology, world politics, world history, and such. Similarly, their comfort level with the english language is much lower than other South Asians or even those from Middle East and Africa (I mention that only to wonder if that may be a reason for them being behind the curve compared to others, due to availability of enough/ quality educational content in your local languages).

Also, the frame of mind/ thinking patterns seem to be totally different, misaligned with how most of the others think (not just other South Asians in this case, but even Middle East, Africa, Europe, other parts of Asia, and certainly North America). Seems like the rest of the world has converged on a relatively singular/ well-aligned view of the world and how things work, but Pakistanis seem to think/ live in their own world that very rarely resonates with the rest of the world.

What are the reasons for this? Would love to get people's thoughts on this topic!
Every newly created country should start authoritarian,it needs to have one constitution,one rule of law imposed on all citizens.
The slightest change in the beginning,the smallest freedom wil have concequential effects on education,religious affairs,rule of law,economy,military etc.
In Pakistan you have to many different powerful actors like religious leaders,political parties and although not so much as it used be,the Armed Forces.
For me,the only reason is that M.Ali Jinnah died to early(may he rest in peace),unfortunately.
If only he had ten more years.
 
Hello all! I'm new to the forum and looking forward to constructive (even if sometimes contentious) discussions with fellow members in the days to come.

I'm curious to understand historical, cultural, and political reasons for why the literacy rate and educational standard in Pakistan/ with Pakistani people are so low. While I know South Asia was historically deprived, the other countries seem to have fared much better and made progress in literacy and education by leaps and bounds, at least when compared to Pakistan.

The other point is more of an observation. As I come across folks from many different backgrounds and cultures, including several from various parts of South Asia, those from Pakistan come across as less liberal and less versed in being able to hold their own in conversations and discussions as they relate to topics of science, technology, world politics, world history, and such. Similarly, their comfort level with the english language is much lower than other South Asians or even those from Middle East and Africa (I mention that only to wonder if that may be a reason for them being behind the curve compared to others, due to availability of enough/ quality educational content in your local languages).

Also, the frame of mind/ thinking patterns seem to be totally different, misaligned with how most of the others think (not just other South Asians in this case, but even Middle East, Africa, Europe, other parts of Asia, and certainly North America). Seems like the rest of the world has converged on a relatively singular/ well-aligned view of the world and how things work, but Pakistanis seem to think/ live in their own world that very rarely resonates with the rest of the world.

What are the reasons for this? Would love to get people's thoughts on this topic!

Another "Brad" from RSS :lol:.
 
Everyone may have an opinion on why parents would pull their kids from schools... so let's analyze prohibiting factors...
1. Is education expensive?
2. Do parents see a return on their investment, for educating their child?
3. Do they lack foresight?
4. Do they agree with curriculum?
5. Do they accept or want the resultant product?

If correct deductions are drawn then a correct course of action canbe applied. People who are in trades, generation after generation, and want their kid to run family business/trade have a singular objective. Now, if education was furthering their cause i.e. making their kids better at what they already do... I don't see a reason why they'd pull their kids ... Does that make sense? Now the question is if parents are only paying their kids to be indoctrinated into a half breed, they'd not show any enthusiasm either. So education in Pakistan is very result oriented... meaning parents will send their kids to learn and read Qur'an only... here only basics are concerned and that is all the faith they'd ever learn except for a pseudo political lecture on every sermon. The rest is all practicality of their education i.e. trade.

That is why youth who go through the whole program not only lose interest in parents cottage industries but also in labor intensive or demanding trades. They expect a desk job, knowledge they have gleaned lacks context and content, setting them up for failure.

Unless, education is more grounded in the physical realities of the region and it's people, grounds up growth from the grassroots is impossible. For that, locals would need higher learning in their native tongue, education and skills improvement on their traditional and established industries or up and coming ecosystems. Languages and liberal arts are good but secondary for people looking to step up from daily grind.
 
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the only budget that ever put most money for health and education was
1971-72
after that all the democrazy, and demo dicto, govt,
never bothered to uplift health nor education
priorities, became , bharia towns, dha housing schemes.
all of pakistan became a property buy/sell/ built housing schemes.

no -one is intrested in investing in its nations health and education-

no wonder ignorants/incomptent are sitting in pm, dm, cm chairs
 
Any source of that?



We know it's a lie
Source ? My cousins are teachers.

Primary teacher job is a 4200 grade pay job. The starting salary itself is 42,000rs per month. The seniors receive more than 80,000rs per month. 2 of my cousins have worked for 8 years and are already getting 60,000rs.

How is government monitoring of schools in rural areas in India and can you provide some specifics, if available?

Also does it vary state by state? Kerala would probably be the best template to study given their enormous success in achieving almost 100% literacy.

Pakistan has a massive problem with schools and teachers that basically exist just on paper in the rural areas. The funds for school construction, refurbishment, equipment etc get stolen, teachers are basically political loyalists or friends/family of political loyalists so unqualified and/or collect salaries without showing up.

Parts of Pakistan where local feudal lords hold sway tend to see these kinds of issues more than others since local feudal lords have a vested interest in continuing to oppress & suppress the people on their land for their own economic and political benefit.

Monitoring is multi pronged.

There are Block level Education officers recruited solely for inspection of govt run village schools.

It does vary state from state. Some of the states have installed Biometric attendance.

Recently in Uttar Pradesh , Prerna App was made mandatory in which teachers had to post a selfie with date and time stamp at the school daily two times I.e morning and evening.

Teachers are recruited through state level open competitive exams so no role played by local politicians or heavyweights.


Numerous NGOs keep govt on its toes. An Ngo named Pratham releases ASER ( Annual Survery of Education Report ) annually. It works as a barometer of gvt's performance.

Even the poor send their children to school because not a single penny is charged for anything. Everything is provided free by the state. Uniform , lunch , books , bag etc etc. All free.
 
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Fine answer mate. Appreciate your effort.
However, the explanation of low literacy isnt satisfactory. India has a larger number and percentage of poor people compared to Pakistan but our literacy rate is good. Primary school level enrollment ratio in India is more than 95%.

Its about political will I think. Single last 20 years or so , great emphasis was placed on education by gvt through focussed missions. The primary teacher is a very well paid in India. Avg salary of a teacher teaching in village schools in India is 60,000 Indian rupees per month.
No its not. Its true for posh areas but not in general.
 
No its not. Its true for posh areas but not in general.
Bhai my family members are teachers. A gvt teacher in a village primary school is a 4200gp job with entry level salary of 42,000rs.

Private schools give less salary in backward areas. Merely 10k to 15k. Goverment schools give very lucrative salary.

See the ENTRY LEVEL salary of a gvt teacher in UP.
 

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Source ? My cousins are teachers.

Primary teacher job is a 4200 grade pay job. The starting salary itself is 42,000rs per month. The seniors receive more than 80,000rs per month. 2 of my cousins have worked for 8 years and are already getting 60,000rs.



Monitoring is multi pronged.

There are Block level Education officers recruited solely for inspection of govt run village schools.

It does vary state from state. Some of the states have installed Biometric attendance.

Recently in Uttar Pradesh , Prerna App was made mandatory in which teachers had to post a selfie with date and time stamp at the school daily two times I.e morning and evening.

Teachers are recruited through state level open competitive exams so no role played by local politicians or heavyweights.


Numerous NGOs keep govt on its toes. An Ngo named Pratham releases ASER ( Annual Survery of Education Report ) annually. It works as a barometer of gvt's performance.

Even the poor send their children to school bechare not a single penny is charged for anything. Everything is provided free by the state. Uniform , lunch , books , bag etc etc. All free.

This is it. All the free stuff, especially free meals. It is a must to get enrolment figures up. This should be priority 1.
 
This is it. All the free stuff, especially free meals. It is a must to get enrolment figures up. This should be priority 1.
Yes. That really helps the poorn send their children to school as no costs are involved. Free education to all children has been made a Fundamental Right here in India. Education is free upto 8th class.

As all these efforts are of recent origin ( last 10 years mainly ) , the impact will be more visible in 2021 and 2031 census.

I wanna add one thing here. It's not just the free stuff but also the "presence of state" that gives hope to people to get their children educated. And this was made possible by PM Village Roads Scheme that joined every single village of India by road. Access is also very important for service delivery.
 
Edit: Obviously there are many, many positive factors and strides that Pakistan its society has made. But you came here looking for the negatives, so that is what I gave you.

The question can be broken into several bits.

Starting off with education, and why the literacy rate is so low.

Quite honestly... I don't know why but I guess it's simply not taken seriously when really it should be a national emergency that 40% of children are out of school. That's a national emergency, and education should be top priority.

  1. There have always been other concerns in Pakistan which have taken the mainstream media and opinion, both public and government. Such as military, militancy, terrorism, corruption, politics, poverty, religion, public welfare in terms of housing, food, and so on. So this issue of education has never ever been at the forefront ever, unfortunately. I don't remember the last time education was taken as a serious issue except Pakistan's spending on education is just short of 3% of the GDP, and that is embarrassing.
  2. A lot of people in Pakistan are poor, specially rural parts which actually constitute the majority of Pakistan's population, I think. So, families consider it a time waste to send their children to school to study for years, and instead have them working the traditional labor from an early age. Some simply can't afford.
  3. The literacy rate of girls is lower than that of boys, and this is a problem because of the traditional societal roles that are assigned to and expected from them. Since they're going to marry off, take care of the house, and do the household chores, people don't send them to school and drop them out before college. People don't realize the value of education when it comes to bringing up a new generation.
  4. If you see the percentage of children out-of-school across primary, secondary, higher and college levels, you will see that the percentage successively grows. The reasons are a mixture of the above two; that is they're considered a time waste, require financial investment, gender roles are at play, and so on.

Pakistani people being less liberal and less into versed conversations regarding Science

Well, you might just need to update yourself because in terms of lack of liberalism, our neighbor that is India is overtaking us right now. They've grown more intolerant than us, and that is observable from social media where you usually expect to find a generally more liberal and secular view, but in India's case you will find a large, large majority just growing more and more conservative about their country and open in hatred against Islam.

Anyways, just a general point I wanted to mention. Back to Pakistan. Pakistani people are indeed less liberal and more conservative to their viewpoint, and also less likely to hold versed conversations when it comes to global affairs and science. I think there are actually two segments of society now. I will go into depth in my points below.

  1. During the 1980s, General Zia, a military dictator, initiated policies of Islamization which pushed in a lot of elements of what people regard today as Sharia Law (I say today because I don't think Sharia Law has ever been properly defined, and interpreted, every country, and point in time, has seen different versions of it) wherein the education was affected, news channels and soap operas were affected, work attire was affected, and there was propaganda all around for its implementation; these Islamization policies introduced a new mindset into the people which was a bit extreme. Religious scholars were given an upper hand and more power, and they used this power to influence people, weed out those who did not agree, and such. This mindset, and infiltration of extremism into society, has lived till this date.
  2. That was the historical perspective. Now to the present. Even today, the religious scholars are very, very highly regarded, and can close the country at a whim. They exercise a great influence over the Government, and have only grown more, and more, bold each day. To showcase this, recently during the PTI government, TLP staged a protest over a major Supreme Court case. In it, one of the group's leaders openly said that the Pakistan's Chief of Army Staff, and the Prime Minister of Pakistan, are 'vajib-ul-katal,' meaning it is legal to shed their blood, Islamically... and they had many supporters... during every Government in the last two decades, these people have staged protests which have shut down the entire country and stopped it. In the political ground, they exercise influence but not presence. If that makes sense... they have this influence and ability, but they never get seats in the Parliament from votes of the people.
  3. Now, more generally, Pakistani people really love Islam. They really love it, and there is nothing wrong with this love. The issue is that they want it everywhere, and believe it is the solution to all problems, there's sort of this underlying mindset. It should be strict, present in your clothing, education, government... everywhere. This is the result of Zia's Islamization policies, and well how the general global dynamics are right now with Iran and Saudi Arabia. They think it's part of Islam to enforce these by law. And somewhere in between with the war on terror, new interpretations, and due to power of religious scholars, these ideas have crept in.
  4. Pakistani people really love Islam, and now here's a big problem. Anytime there is some injustice against Muslims or the religion in general, people feel that the religion is in danger and they need to hold more strongly on to it! Let me tell ask you, a half century from now, how 'Islamic' were exactly the Muslim countries in the Industrial age... they were progressing very normally, then the whole War on Terror, new interpretations crept into society, and people felt Islam is in danger and so on. If today there was no injustice against Islam and Muslims, believe me, the very state of Muslim countries politically would be very different. People are more comfortable with discussing ideas that are their own and in between their people, they value it and don't want outsiders criticizing it but are okay with criticizing it themselves, but when outsiders mock it, they feel they must protect it. That's how it is.
In regards to Science, that again has to do with education, and the fact that the topics which have always hit the mainstream media and opinion, have never been education or science.

Regarding English language

Now even though, Pakistan has one of the highest English speaking populations, it is not spoken correctly to say the least. There are some pretty ordinary reasons for this.

  • Public schools never enforce an english-speaking environment. Essentially, the entire language medium is supposed to be in English save the Urdu and Islamic classes.
  • The teachers are not up to the mark, their own English is questionable and not correct.
  • Inter and Matric exams (Pakistan's higher education board exams) allow you to study the subjects in either English or Urdu, you can write your answers in either, naturally people choose Urdu. I don't know how accurate this is, I know this is a thing in rural places though, I don't know about Urban places.
  • People just don't take it serious. I have learned Turkish, Russian and German, and although I learned English naturally from a young age, learning new languages really opens up how difficult of a language English is to learn for new learners. There are no definite rules in it everywhere since it has been so globally influenced and changed, it is a really difficult language. So, when people don't take it serious, they end up with broken English skills.

The Pakistani Bubble

This is very true, funny enough. However, I am not sure as to why myself. I recon the answer would be seriously long, and this really requires an analysis of society and opinion, and also historical perspectives; like Pakistani people really love Islam and believe they're divinely chosen to defend it. I am sure what I mentioned plays a part in it. What I do know however is that there are major Youtube channels with millions of subscribers which propagate and expand this bubble, like Haqeeqat TV which says that vaccines are a Jewish conspiracy by Bill Gates to make our people infertile, and such stupidity, and millions of people believe the guy. So, there is indeed this bubble. I don't know why, but in essence due to lack of education and scientific importance, that is obvious.

My opinion about Liberalism, Secularism in Pakistan

Due to the Governments' horrible policies on education, and lack of progress to improve the education system, merit boards, and the examination systems; many, many people have opted for private education, and the Universities have largely kept themselves independent of the Government. As such private institutes and Universities have been providing a quality education. But more importantly, these have opened up free spaces where people can discuss ideas and concepts, and due to the failure of conservative policies and Islamization policies of all Government, it has given rise to more liberal and secular views, quite rapidly, in the more privileged circles. Maybe, this will be a factor many years from now.
Edit: Obviously there are many, many positive factors and strides that Pakistan its society has made. But you came here looking for the negatives, so that is what I gave you.

The question can be broken into several bits.

Starting off with education, and why the literacy rate is so low.

Quite honestly... I don't know why but I guess it's simply not taken seriously when really it should be a national emergency that 40% of children are out of school. That's a national emergency, and education should be top priority.

  1. There have always been other concerns in Pakistan which have taken the mainstream media and opinion, both public and government. Such as military, militancy, terrorism, corruption, politics, poverty, religion, public welfare in terms of housing, food, and so on. So this issue of education has never ever been at the forefront ever, unfortunately. I don't remember the last time education was taken as a serious issue except Pakistan's spending on education is just short of 3% of the GDP, and that is embarrassing.
  2. A lot of people in Pakistan are poor, specially rural parts which actually constitute the majority of Pakistan's population, I think. So, families consider it a time waste to send their children to school to study for years, and instead have them working the traditional labor from an early age. Some simply can't afford.
  3. The literacy rate of girls is lower than that of boys, and this is a problem because of the traditional societal roles that are assigned to and expected from them. Since they're going to marry off, take care of the house, and do the household chores, people don't send them to school and drop them out before college. People don't realize the value of education when it comes to bringing up a new generation.
  4. If you see the percentage of children out-of-school across primary, secondary, higher and college levels, you will see that the percentage successively grows. The reasons are a mixture of the above two; that is they're considered a time waste, require financial investment, gender roles are at play, and so on.

Pakistani people being less liberal and less into versed conversations regarding Science

Well, you might just need to update yourself because in terms of lack of liberalism, our neighbor that is India is overtaking us right now. They've grown more intolerant than us, and that is observable from social media where you usually expect to find a generally more liberal and secular view, but in India's case you will find a large, large majority just growing more and more conservative about their country and open in hatred against Islam.

Anyways, just a general point I wanted to mention. Back to Pakistan. Pakistani people are indeed less liberal and more conservative to their viewpoint, and also less likely to hold versed conversations when it comes to global affairs and science. I think there are actually two segments of society now. I will go into depth in my points below.

  1. During the 1980s, General Zia, a military dictator, initiated policies of Islamization which pushed in a lot of elements of what people regard today as Sharia Law (I say today because I don't think Sharia Law has ever been properly defined, and interpreted, every country, and point in time, has seen different versions of it) wherein the education was affected, news channels and soap operas were affected, work attire was affected, and there was propaganda all around for its implementation; these Islamization policies introduced a new mindset into the people which was a bit extreme. Religious scholars were given an upper hand and more power, and they used this power to influence people, weed out those who did not agree, and such. This mindset, and infiltration of extremism into society, has lived till this date.
  2. That was the historical perspective. Now to the present. Even today, the religious scholars are very, very highly regarded, and can close the country at a whim. They exercise a great influence over the Government, and have only grown more, and more, bold each day. To showcase this, recently during the PTI government, TLP staged a protest over a major Supreme Court case. In it, one of the group's leaders openly said that the Pakistan's Chief of Army Staff, and the Prime Minister of Pakistan, are 'vajib-ul-katal,' meaning it is legal to shed their blood, Islamically... and they had many supporters... during every Government in the last two decades, these people have staged protests which have shut down the entire country and stopped it. In the political ground, they exercise influence but not presence. If that makes sense... they have this influence and ability, but they never get seats in the Parliament from votes of the people.
  3. Now, more generally, Pakistani people really love Islam. They really love it, and there is nothing wrong with this love. The issue is that they want it everywhere, and believe it is the solution to all problems, there's sort of this underlying mindset. It should be strict, present in your clothing, education, government... everywhere. This is the result of Zia's Islamization policies, and well how the general global dynamics are right now with Iran and Saudi Arabia. They think it's part of Islam to enforce these by law. And somewhere in between with the war on terror, new interpretations, and due to power of religious scholars, these ideas have crept in.
  4. Pakistani people really love Islam, and now here's a big problem. Anytime there is some injustice against Muslims or the religion in general, people feel that the religion is in danger and they need to hold more strongly on to it! Let me tell ask you, a half century from now, how 'Islamic' were exactly the Muslim countries in the Industrial age... they were progressing very normally, then the whole War on Terror, new interpretations crept into society, and people felt Islam is in danger and so on. If today there was no injustice against Islam and Muslims, believe me, the very state of Muslim countries politically would be very different. People are more comfortable with discussing ideas that are their own and in between their people, they value it and don't want outsiders criticizing it but are okay with criticizing it themselves, but when outsiders mock it, they feel they must protect it. That's how it is.
In regards to Science, that again has to do with education, and the fact that the topics which have always hit the mainstream media and opinion, have never been education or science.

Regarding English language

Now even though, Pakistan has one of the highest English speaking populations, it is not spoken correctly to say the least. There are some pretty ordinary reasons for this.

  • Public schools never enforce an english-speaking environment. Essentially, the entire language medium is supposed to be in English save the Urdu and Islamic classes.
  • The teachers are not up to the mark, their own English is questionable and not correct.
  • Inter and Matric exams (Pakistan's higher education board exams) allow you to study the subjects in either English or Urdu, you can write your answers in either, naturally people choose Urdu. I don't know how accurate this is, I know this is a thing in rural places though, I don't know about Urban places.
  • People just don't take it serious. I have learned Turkish, Russian and German, and although I learned English naturally from a young age, learning new languages really opens up how difficult of a language English is to learn for new learners. There are no definite rules in it everywhere since it has been so globally influenced and changed, it is a really difficult language. So, when people don't take it serious, they end up with broken English skills.

The Pakistani Bubble

This is very true, funny enough. However, I am not sure as to why myself. I recon the answer would be seriously long, and this really requires an analysis of society and opinion, and also historical perspectives; like Pakistani people really love Islam and believe they're divinely chosen to defend it. I am sure what I mentioned plays a part in it. What I do know however is that there are major Youtube channels with millions of subscribers which propagate and expand this bubble, like Haqeeqat TV which says that vaccines are a Jewish conspiracy by Bill Gates to make our people infertile, and such stupidity, and millions of people believe the guy. So, there is indeed this bubble. I don't know why, but in essence due to lack of education and scientific importance, that is obvious.

My opinion about Liberalism, Secularism in Pakistan

Due to the Governments' horrible policies on education, and lack of progress to improve the education system, merit boards, and the examination systems; many, many people have opted for private education, and the Universities have largely kept themselves independent of the Government. As such private institutes and Universities have been providing a quality education. But more importantly, these have opened up free spaces where people can discuss ideas and concepts, and due to the failure of conservative policies and Islamization policies of all Government, it has given rise to more liberal and secular views, quite rapidly, in the more privileged circles. Maybe, this will be a factor many years from now.

Super balanced and well-rounded response, @Alternatiiv - it's posts like this that would significantly up the quality of this forum! (too many radical, "emotional", and devoid-of-logic-and-facts posts on this forum from what I've come across so far on multiple threads). Thanks for engaging with me on this.

Regarding your quote about "liberalism" and the comparison to your neighbor, India: well, I wasn't intending to compare Pakistan specifically to India (a friend and fellow forum member told me I'd be well-advised to not get into that at least during my initial days here!). Having said that, I think you're confusing liberalism with secularism and tolerance.

Hi,

First of all, welcome to the forum. I hope you find you're time here constructive.

Thank you! :)

For a start your observations are something that should be limited to your personal experience and not something that you should consider a matter of fact. Pakistani's abroad have a fine command of the English language, and as you'll see on this forum, the quality of english used by between foreign members, Pakistanis and overseas Pakistani's is pretty much the same.

Secondly, you really shouldn't judge people's education by how well they know a foreign language. English is a foreign language in our country. You might be used to fellow Indians who come from various different states with various different languages who then end up communicating in English. In Pakistan Urdu is our national language.

First: My mentions are a combination of statistical facts as well as personal observations, both of which I called out specifically. The lower literacy rate and educational standards compared to other countries in South Asia are facts, not personal observations. The mention of my Pakistani friends' views and being able to hold their own and being versed enough etc was my observation, which I clearly called out. So not sure what you're advising me to do differently, unless you're contesting what I'm calling out as a fact i.e. lower literacy rates/ ed standards.

Second: As for me "judging" people's education based on how well they know a foreign language, your comment is a great example of what I mean (it's not so much that they can't speak, understand English, it's more about comprehension and analytical abilities). E.g. my original post talks about my observation that my Pakistani friends seem to be unable to cope/ hold their own when we're talking science, world politics, other topics, and I <wondered> if that was because quality educational content in your local languages was the underlying problem. Somehow, you seem to have processed that into me judging people's educational level based on their English savvy!

Third: For someone who's cautioning me against being judgemental, you're quick to judge yourself! You "judged" me to be Indian ("might be used to fellow Indians...")!! Practice before you preach? :)

The rest of your post is very informative - thank you!

Can i ask where did you meet these Pakistanis and qhat where their backgrounds, if you happen to know.

These are friends and colleagues I come across here in the US. At work, outside work in more social settings.

Which sources you are reading these stats from? :D
Your response seems to indicate there's a wide variance in data sources reporting these figures. Is that the case? I did a quick google search and multiple sources seemed to be pretty consistent around this number (~46%). Unesco, CIA Factbook, Statista. Can you elaborate on what point you're trying to make? Is the number/state different according to you from what he's quoted?

Another "Brad" from RSS :lol:.
Some sort of inside joke on this forum? :) Not sure I understand what you mean.
 
Super balanced and well-rounded response, @Alternatiiv - it's posts like this that would significantly up the quality of this forum! (too many radical, "emotional", and devoid-of-logic-and-facts posts on this forum from what I've come across so far on multiple threads). Thanks for engaging with me on this.

Regarding your quote about "liberalism" and the comparison to your neighbor, India: well, I wasn't intending to compare Pakistan specifically to India (a friend and fellow forum member told me I'd be well-advised to not get into that at least during my initial days here!). Having said that, I think you're confusing liberalism with secularism and tolerance.



Thank you! :)



First: My mentions are a combination of statistical facts as well as personal observations, both of which I called out specifically. The lower literacy rate and educational standards compared to other countries in South Asia are facts, not personal observations. The mention of my Pakistani friends' views and being able to hold their own and being versed enough etc was my observation, which I clearly called out. So not sure what you're advising me to do differently, unless you're contesting what I'm calling out as a fact i.e. lower literacy rates/ ed standards.

Second: As for me "judging" people's education based on how well they know a foreign language, your comment is a great example of what I mean (it's not so much that they can't speak, understand English, it's more about comprehension and analytical abilities). E.g. my original post talks about my observation that my Pakistani friends seem to be unable to cope/ hold their own when we're talking science, world politics, other topics, and I <wondered> if that was because quality educational content in your local languages was the underlying problem. Somehow, you seem to have processed that into me judging people's educational level based on their English savvy!

Third: For someone who's cautioning me against being judgemental, you're quick to judge yourself! You "judged" me to be Indian ("might be used to fellow Indians...")!! Practice before you preach? :)

The rest of your post is very informative - thank you!



These are friends and colleagues I come across here in the US. At work, outside work in more social settings.


Your response seems to indicate there's a wide variance in data sources reporting these figures. Is that the case? I did a quick google search and multiple sources seemed to be pretty consistent around this number (~46%). Unesco, CIA Factbook, Statista. Can you elaborate on what point you're trying to make? Is the number/state different according to you from what he's quoted?


Some sort of inside joke on this forum? :) Not sure I understand what you mean.

LOL confirmed Bradesh
 

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