Light weight tanks for Pakistan Army

[Arulmozhi Varman]

India will not go for any new tanks. Other than in Depsang Plains region, there are no other region where tanks can be used effectively unless of course India decides to go for an Tibetian invasions.
In Depsang region, already T72 are stationed there with night sight and improvements. While an light tank would really be useful in passes/blockades and can be airlifted/dropped and welcome addition, Indian budget don't really have any more purses for new tanks and along with its associated maintenance, opex etc. Moreover as some one said Light tanks are also easily susceptible to ATGM.

 

[Scorpiooo]

India will not go for any new tanks. Other than in Depsang Plains region, there are no other region where tanks can be used effectively unless of course India decides to go for an Tibetian invasions.
In Depsang region, already T72 are stationed there with night sight and improvements. While an light tank would really be useful in passes/blockades and can be airlifted/dropped and welcome addition, Indian budget don't really have any more purses for new tanks and along with its associated maintenance, opex etc. Moreover as some one said Light tanks are also easily susceptible to ATGM.

May be possible, but multiple indian media shared this news

 

[Bilal9]

Bangladesh bought three regiments of VT5 light tanks. However these new tanks are expensive. Hence program undertaken to extend service life of lightweight T-59 tanks with modern ERA on turret (resulting platform named "Durjoy"), NORINCO upgrade kits using modern radios, laser target designators, night-sights, rangefinders and other sensors.

Reportedly, 174 were upgraded from existing count of 300, and upgradation is ongoing for the rest. Some of the Type 59's were gifted to Bangladesh from Egypt back in the day - Thanks to Egyptian brothers/sisters for that.

NORINCO was interested in 2nd batch of VT5 sales after concluded deal with Bangladesh, and proposed that Bangladesh could have 300 more upgradeable (ex- PLA) T-59s free-of-cost if the deal for new VT5's went through. These surplus Type 59's would also be upgradeable with NORINCO-supplied kits.

Seems like a win-win for both parties and IMHO - this is not a bad deal, given that upgrade kits cost significantly less than getting serviceable hulls/turrets and engine, even considering cannibalization options. Israelis are experts at using older Soviet hulls to provide serviceable armor platforms (Magach?) and they also helped the Vietnamese upgrade their older lightweight T-54's to modern standards.

So - I want to ask the experts here, does upgrading older lightweight type 59's (42 Tonnes AUW) seem viable with modern encrypted secure radios, ERAs and Laser Target designators? The engines, hulls and turrets are still serviceable as "numbers" expendable armor (as opposed to Top of the line frontline armor), given they are not as agile or cannot resist attacks as well from ATGM's?

It seems Quantity can be an alternative option as opposed to Quality - given the right circumstances.

Is it a waste of money and a liability to extend the life on these Type 59's, and better to spend money on a much smaller number of Harimau or VT5 platforms (given the newer platforms are seemingly not as robust) ? VT5's in Bangladesh Army were inducted for Mountain warfare, by the way.

By the way - Norinco has also proposed to upgrade the firepower of the upgraded Durjoy Tanks by mounting additional ATGM launchers and higher calibre auxiliary cannons on the turret.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

We could develop a new tracked IFV similar to the Polish Anders, e.g.

...and then develop a light tank using the IFV as the chassis, e.g.,

I just thought I throw this out there before we lose all hope and nihilistically expect the PA to buy VT5 from China, or mothballed T-59s from Cambodia.

 

[serenity]

India will not go for any new tanks. Other than in Depsang Plains region, there are no other region where tanks can be used effectively unless of course India decides to go for an Tibetian invasions.
In Depsang region, already T72 are stationed there with night sight and improvements. While an light tank would really be useful in passes/blockades and can be airlifted/dropped and welcome addition, Indian budget don't really have any more purses for new tanks and along with its associated maintenance, opex etc. Moreover as some one said Light tanks are also easily susceptible to ATGM.

Tank vs tank is rare and definitely light tanks are much easier to destroy for ATGM but this is also why they need active protection like GL-5. GL-5 is not used by PLA itself because for typical large scale ground war it doesn't fit into PLA model which include artillery and air or digital war so they don't bother putting expensive active protection on frontline position tanks because it's almost always useless unless they plan for these tanks to continue fighting long periods in frontline against well armed and supplied enemy. Also because most frontline units will meet artillery from other side.

GL-5 is mostly export option but PLA's active protection system is different and is not yet shown. Only the laser dazzler is shown but to defeat ATGM from soldiers or helicopter there are many methods. Only wire guided is unjammable but then you just need to make sure those wire guided type missiles you don't encounter using drones, helicopters, and guided artillery or heavier tanks that have much better chance against ATGM. This means Type 15 is useless by itself and Chinese military commenters said it is highly networked and dependent on network and information to be effective. Light tanks are useless alone. Light tanks definitely need units with active protection if they want to sustain fighting on frontline but both sides frontline will immediately be destroyed by artillery and first air strike before distance fighting.

 

[CrazyZ]

I'm not a fan of light tanks....considering PA will be fighting in the open desert or croplands. Heavier tanks (60 ton+) have had better combat performance in these terrains, looking over the last 50 years of conflict.

Best for PA supplement MBT's with a simple low profile missile based tank destroyer like the German Raketenjagdpanzer.

Best to work on something firing newer Chinese or Turkish anti tank missiles....with at least a 8KM engagement range. HJ-10 would fit the need.

 

[Scorpiooo]

We could develop a new tracked IFV similar to the Polish Anders, e.g.

View attachment 751735

...and then develop a light tank using the IFV as the chassis, e.g.,

View attachment 751736

I just thought I throw this out there before we lose all hope and nihilistically expect the PA to buy VT5 from China, or mothballed T-59s from Cambodia.

@Bilal Khan (Quwa) will you really think uncle's at HIT will ever think on this grounds or make somekind of effort them selfs ...

 

[GiG]

Any status update on the viper? by HIT

 

[denel]

Well Pakistan don't need light tanks. What Pakistan need is IFVs, ATGM's on fast movers or fast movers in general and Carl Gustav M4s

Correct, we had abandoned the role of tanks back in the 80's. During the Angola ops, the planners had realised that in long distance, shrubs or jungle terrain - tanks were no good and landed up to be death traps. Further the logistics maintenance support is complex and requires a lot of manpower. Add to the mix use of mines and IEDs was omni-present. Hence the mine proof vehicles from all aspects took shape including Ratel and Rookat.

I see same parallels here. You need speed and high mobility of personnel if required that these light tanks do not provide; Further, most of these mine proof vehicles like Rookat/Ratel in particular were later adapted to hunter killer roles with atgms with various guidances.

 

[LKJ86]

ZTQ-15 light tank

 

[Arulmozhi Varman]

Tank vs tank is rare and definitely light tanks are much easier to destroy for ATGM but this is also why they need active protection like GL-5. GL-5 is not used by PLA itself because for typical large scale ground war it doesn't fit into PLA model which include artillery and air or digital war so they don't bother putting expensive active protection on frontline position tanks because it's almost always useless unless they plan for these tanks to continue fighting long periods in frontline against well armed and supplied enemy. Also because most frontline units will meet artillery from other side.

GL-5 is mostly export option but PLA's active protection system is different and is not yet shown. Only the laser dazzler is shown but to defeat ATGM from soldiers or helicopter there are many methods. Only wire guided is unjammable but then you just need to make sure those wire guided type missiles you don't encounter using drones, helicopters, and guided artillery or heavier tanks that have much better chance against ATGM. This means Type 15 is useless by itself and Chinese military commenters said it is highly networked and dependent on network and information to be effective. Light tanks are useless alone. Light tanks definitely need units with active protection if they want to sustain fighting on frontline but both sides frontline will immediately be destroyed by artillery and first air strike before distance fighting.

Light tanks are useless for invasions. It is pretty best used for defence against some blocks of passes where the enemy can only send ground troops to.
If we add networking capabilities, EW suitea and protection suites to an light tank, it won't be an light tank anymore. Unless the Chinese are as usual showing off, these capabilities do not add anything of value to it's primary objective of designed as a light tank.
Even with EW suites, we don't know how they act in real world with enemy products. Indian ATGM are already tested with RF+ Thermal optical sensor. Israeli ones too. So I am not sure what kinda EW can block Thermal imaging suites to destroy an light tank.
My comment would remain the same even if India were to go for an light tank which would be a waste of money.

 

[Scorpiooo]

ZTQ-15 light tank
View attachment 751815View attachment 751816

Whats is the there unit cost

Any status update on the viper? by HIT
View attachment 751795

Under umbrella of HiT uncles

 

[IbnAbdullah]

Salaam


What do you guys think about using armed drones to counter light tanks at higher altitudes? Drones would be much cheaper and could be used in larger numbers?



Thanks.

 

[White Lion]

We could develop a new tracked IFV similar to the Polish Anders, e.g.

View attachment 751735

...and then develop a light tank using the IFV as the chassis, e.g.,

View attachment 751736

I just thought I throw this out there before we lose all hope and nihilistically expect the PA to buy VT5 from China, or mothballed T-59s from Cambodia.

Why are we (Pakistan) thinking of getting conventional options i.e Light tank against Light tank. @Zarvan earlier quoted that the topography is different along the borders. If Light tanks are needed for India than they are of limited use against what India would field i.e medium tanks.

Pakistan has mostly relied on asymmetrical doctrine. Cold Start doctrine of India was countered by Tactical Nuclear Missile. PAF fielding Light category aircraft JF-17 against Heavy / Medium i.e SU30 MKI / Rafales.

In light of these examples Pakistan should be considering some sort of tactical weapon / platform which could counter various threats.

IMO something like These should be the best option in various configurations.

 

[Scorpiooo]

Why are we (Pakistan) thinking of getting conventional options i.e Light tank against Light tank. @Zarvan earlier quoted that the topography is different along the borders. If Light tanks are needed for India than they are of limited use against what India would field i.e medium tanks.

Pakistan has mostly relied on asymmetrical doctrine. Cold Start doctrine of India was countered by Tactical Nuclear Missile. PAF fielding Light category aircraft JF-17 against Heavy / Medium i.e SU30 MKI / Rafales.

In light of these examples Pakistan should be considering some sort of tactical weapon / platform which could counter various threats.

IMO something like These should be the best option in various configurations.

What capabilities these will bring agiant tanks ?? 3rd generation tank are not joke at all specially considering war senario