Libyan rebel commander admits his fighters have al-Qaeda links

[CardSharp]

JayATL is a great employee of the US federal government! Can drag China into everything! Seems like you'll be making a bonus today. Check your bank account for another 5 cents.

No, I have a feel that idiot works pro bono, out of a sense of hate. Some Indians cannot shake their insecurities towards China, even if they move out of the country.

 

[oct605032048]

Didn't stop you guys from sitting on the sidelines, in Rwanda. That took 6 month to play out. What's changed? During that 6 month many many Rwandan leaders went to Washington DC begging for help, and the response they were given in general and in particular by the then undersecretary of state was "America has no friends only interests, and there are no American interests in Rwanda"

I suspect this is what really separates the American response between Rwanda and Libya.

To illustrate the double or multi-standards of the US intervening a tiny country, you should raise Bahrain as a better example. Or maybe Somalia as another example but in a different perspective.

Maybe there is only on standard.

Interest.

 

[CardSharp]

You should raise Bahrain as a better example. Or maybe Somalia as another example but in a different perspective.

Bahrain I can see but Somalia isn't really a comparable situation. There are no political forces at work there, more just chaos.

 

[JayAtl]

I didn't make your point actually. Please read with more care. I am positing that there is a double standard for whether America chooses to act or not for "humanitarian" reasons. There was nothing to gain for America in Rwanda (a humanitarian catastrophe, orders of magnitude to what happened in Libya) so it didn't act, there is something to gain in Libya there America does act (along with the french and UK, because they've long had interests in the region).

Atleast in Rwanda the US did not supply them with weapons to kill babies, women, young children like the chinese did...
one time , one case does not make the US anti humanitarian- that's got to be selective generalizaition by you chinese based on one case and dare say quite idiotic of a presumption...I do believe there are plenty of cases where the US has intervened which included Kosovo. The US came once again to stop the slaughter of muslims and did not gain anything from it...

 

[JayAtl]

No, I have a feel that idiot works pro bono, out of a sense of hate. Some Indians cannot shake their insecurities to wards China, even if they move out of the country.

where does India come into play dumbarse .. you take a shot at the US and Rwanda and I show you Chinese have the blood of innocent babies and mass murders on your hand in Rwanda and you turn into insecurity as Indian about China? unlike you and your fan boy relationship with China - i don't worship at the altar of either India or the US. I disagree plenty with both countries decesions...

 

[Mech]

where does India come into play dumbarse .. you take a shot at the US and Rwanda and I show you Chinese have the blood of innocent babies and mass murders on your hand in Rwanda and you turn into insecurity as Indian about China? unlike you and your fan boy relationship with China - i don't worship at the altar of either India or the US. I disagree plenty with both countries decesions...

With all due respect sir,
What is with you and china anyway? How does india or china feature in the libyan drama? I hope sanity prevails and we can return to our original discussion.

 

[Mech]

I think we are refusing to look at the picture from another angle. Qaddafi is really not as evil as the media tries to portray him. Sure he seems arrogant but there used to be a very vibrant, developing community prospering under his regime. The "rebels" are only a handful, and with alleged links to al-qaeda. In any conflict, the civilians tend to take the backseat and remain unheard.

If qaddafi were so evil, how is it even remotely possible for him to gather a HUGE support base ? The situation is not similiar to egypt where the pro mubarak factions were a handful. Qaddafi's support base in libya is quite significant.

My belief is that, attack on the qaddafi regime is nothing more than a cheap trick to jumpstart the failing industries and ensure an oil supply is maintained.

Many indians, pakistanis, chinese etc has worked there and these were not restricted to oil wells. Libya under qaddafi had a functioning and credible judiciary, stable economy and a prospering people. How is it that all of a sudden a few nameless rebels are able to disrupt the system, acquire a lot of firepower and sustain a defensive line against the national army?

I smell a rat and im sure its not all what it seems like.

 

[JayAtl]

With all due respect sir,
What is with you and china anyway? How does india or china feature in the libyan drama? I hope sanity prevails and we can return to our original discussion.

try reading what I was replying to and you know where it comes in... unless you are following me post to post too dumb to read the trail before quoting me ?

 

[Thomas]

The "rebels" are only a handful, and with alleged links to al-qaeda. In any conflict, the civilians tend to take the backseat and remain unheard.

You do know that it is a majority of the tribes in Libya that have come out against him? I doubt that makes them a handful or Al-Qaeda affiliated.

 

[JayAtl]

I think we are refusing to look at the picture from another angle. Qaddafi is really not as evil as the media tries to portray him. Sure he seems arrogant but there used to be a very vibrant, developing community prospering under his regime. The "rebels" are only a handful, and with alleged links to al-qaeda. In any conflict, the civilians tend to take the backseat and remain unheard.

If qaddafi were so evil, how is it even remotely possible for him to gather a HUGE support base ? The situation is not similiar to egypt where the pro mubarak factions were a handful. Qaddafi's support base in libya is quite significant.

My belief is that, attack on the Qaddafi regime is nothing more than a cheap trick to jumpstart the failing industries and ensure an oil supply is maintained.

Many indians, pakistanis, chinese etc has worked there and these were not restricted to oil wells. Libya under qaddafi had a functioning and credible judiciary, stable economy and a prospering people. How is it that all of a sudden a few nameless rebels are able to disrupt the system, acquire a lot of firepower and sustain a defensive line against the national army?

I smell a rat and im sure its not all what it seems like.

amazing...simply mind blowing amazing- because even posters who are against intervening in Libya- I don't believe I have read a single one yet not calling / acknowledging that Qaddafi is nuts... but hey there is always a first. and what is this huge base he has you talk about? show us comaprtive numbers and study please- you know his base vs those against him.

 

[CardSharp]

I think we are refusing to look at the picture from another angle. Qaddafi is really not as evil as the media tries to portray him. Sure he seems arrogant but there used to be a very vibrant, developing community prospering under his regime. The "rebels" are only a handful, and with alleged links to al-qaeda. In any conflict, the civilians tend to take the backseat and remain unheard.

If qaddafi were so evil, how is it even remotely possible for him to gather a HUGE support base ? The situation is not similiar to egypt where the pro mubarak factions were a handful. Qaddafi's support base in libya is quite significant.

My belief is that, attack on the qaddafi regime is nothing more than a cheap trick to jumpstart the failing industries and ensure an oil supply is maintained.

Many indians, pakistanis, chinese etc has worked there and these were not restricted to oil wells. Libya under qaddafi had a functioning and credible judiciary, stable economy and a prospering people. How is it that all of a sudden a few nameless rebels are able to disrupt the system, acquire a lot of firepower and sustain a defensive line against the national army?

I smell a rat and im sure its not all what it seems like.

My worry now is that in the name of democracy, the rebels will declare themselves the leader of all of Libya whether the western part of the country likes it or not. From what the news report say, most people in Tripoli are worried about rebel atrocities and the given the loose command and control of the rebels army, there could be the risk of a significant this could degenerate into tribal killing.

 

[CardSharp]

I also don't think that the tribal angle is getting enough coverage in the news, even though it is what is affect many of the events.


Libyan Tribal Map: Network of loyalties that will determine Gaddafi's fate

The above was published in Feb and I think it still is relevant.

 

[Mech]

amazing...simply mind blowing amazing- because even posters who are against intervening in Libya- I don't believe I have read a single one yet not calling / acknowledging that Qaddafi is nuts... but hey there is always a first. and what is this huge base he has you talk about? show us comaprtive numbers and study please- you know his base vs those against him.

Sir, i am not qaddafi's personal medical staff to pass judgements about his mental capacity. However i can tell you the nation under his regime has only prospered. And in retrospect sir, can you produce a credible statistical data about the rebels? No one can, because it is currently impossible to do that in libya.

 

[JayAtl]

Sir, i am not qaddafi's personal medical staff to pass judgements about his mental capacity. However i can tell you the nation under his regime has only prospered. And in retrospect sir, can you produce a credible statistical data about the rebels? No one can, because it is currently impossible to do that in libya.

why should I have to prove your claim. its up to you prove your claim kiddo. and Germany was really prosperous under Hitler too...and how do you know Libya ( citizenry) has prospered? your not his doctor but you for sure are his chief economist it seems..

 

[Thomas]

Sir, i am not qaddafi's personal medical staff to pass judgements about his mental capacity. However i can tell you the nation under his regime has only prospered. And in retrospect sir, can you produce a credible statistical data about the rebels? No one can, because it is currently impossible to do that in libya.

Libya's tribes turning against Gadhafi


Gaddafi has lost it ... - Opinion - Al Jazeera English
"However, over the last few days, one after the other, Libyan tribes have declared their opposition to the Gaddafi regime and vowed their support and allegiance to the revolution of February 17."

Will Libyan Tribes Decide Gaddafi Fate?


By Esam Badran
Freelance Writer-Egypt
Tuesday, 01 March 2011 11:35

Translated by Ahmed El-Gharbawy

One after another, the major tribes in Libya are reported to have joined the popular revolution there. By so doing, they overturn the balance of powers on the ground in favor of the revolt and possibly lead to a quicker overthrow of the Libyan regime in a record time. These transformations on the ground have confused the Libyan regime's calculations and put it in a very weak position.

Undoubtedly, the tribes' factor, which distinguishes Libya's revolt from those in Tunisia and Egypt, will have the final say in deciding the outcome of the confrontation between Gaddafi and the protesters. Unlike Egypt and Tunisia – and like Yemen – Libya's society is mostly composed of tribes, a factor that has a significant role to play in the success or failure of the revolution and the continuation or downfall of the regime.

Moreover, the expected role by the tribes in deciding this conflict gains even greater significance due to the lack of a strong army in Libya, like in Egypt and, to a lesser degree, Tunisia. Still, there is a remaining part of the army in Libya, yet poorly armed and with dubious loyalty. This is why the Libyan leader decided to reinforce the role of militias and security brigades headed by his sons or fellow tribesmen.

Despite the usual policy of the Libyan regime to sow disputes between the tribes to ensure they do not unite against it, two factors made those tribes forget their differences and unite in opposing the regime. The first factor is the enormity of the massacres committed by this regime in a bid to crush the protests, which caused several tribes to wash their hands off this heinous crime and call on their sons with membership in Gaddafi's security brigades to quit and join the demonstrators. The second factor is the regime's use of thugs from African countries against the protesters. To have foreigners killing Libyans, even if they belong to other or rival tribes, is something unacceptable to the true Arab tribes.

The Libyan society has an intertwined fabric of different groups and tribes, too numerous to be counted. Arab tribes represent 97%, whereas the Berber tribes represent 3%.

Here we present the largest and most significant Libyan tribes, along with their positions toward the popular protests taking place across the country:

Gadhadhfa Tribe: Stronghold of the Regime's Head

Libyan leader Mu`ammar Gaddafi descends from Gadhadhfa tribe, which dominates the security apparatuses and militias affiliated to the regime.

The tribe, concentrated in Sirte and Sebha and widely present in Tripoli and Benghazi, is accused of taking part in firing on the protesters.

There are reports of anti-Gaddafi demonstrations in the city of Sebha, from which the Libyan leader descends.

Warfla Tribe Overturns the Balances

Warfla, Libya's biggest tribe, with an estimated population of one million, declared on Sunday evening, February 20, its decision to join the protests against the regime. Warfla tribe is widely present in the cities of Bani Walid, Sirte, Tripoli, and Benghazi.

Having joined the uprising, Warfla overturned the balances in favor of the revolution and is likely to accelerate the downfall of Gaddafi's regime, given the tribe's influence that derives from its large population and past history. The tribe had earlier engaged in an attempt to overthrow the regime of Gaddafi with the assistance of its sons among the army officers. Since then, they have been subject to killing, imprisonment and restriction. Observers assert that the stance of Gaddafi has greatly weakened since Warfla – which has widespread ethnic roots in all parts of Libya – joined the protests.

Tarhuna Tribe Joins the Revolution

Like Warfla, Tarhuna tribe joined the anti-Gaddafi protests. With populations of nearly two million, Warfla and Tarhuna are the biggest tribes in Libya. Tarhuna descends from Hawara tribe that spreads from Taorga to Tripoli.

Meanwhile, `Abdul-Hakim Abuzwida, a spokesman for Tarhuna tribe, stated that the leaders of his tribe, which represent one third of the population of the capital Tripoli, had declared their disavowal of the regime and the tribe's decision to join the revolution against the "dictator".

The leaders of the tribe, of which are most army troops, sought to raise the awareness of the tribe's sons, especially the soldiers among them, about the history of their tribe and to warn them against being driven to the dissension plotted by the regime, which distributed weapons to many, and called for by Saif Al-Islam.

Zawiya Tribe Threatens to Cut Oil Flow

The tribe of Zawiya, located in Libya's southern oil regions, joined the revolutionaries and threatened to cut the flow of oil to Western countries unless the security forces stop firing on the demonstrators.

Faragallah Zoy, one of the tribe's leaders, has said the tribe is giving a warning to Gaddafi, for a 24-hour period, to end the bloodshed and the suppression of the protesters; otherwise, the tribe will halt the flow of oil to Western countries.

Tuareg Tribes Attack the Regime's Buildings

Tuareg tribes joined the revolution and attacked buildings affiliated to the regime. Tuareg people, known as the blue men of the desert, live in southern Libya around Ghadames and in Ghat, Djanet, and Suhoul Adrar. Moreover, they have extensions in neighboring countries, notably Algeria, Niger, and Mali. Their men are known for their distinct clothes and veiled faces. Tuareg people are Sunni Muslims, following the Maliki school of thought. They have the same identity as North African populations, and they speak the Amazigh language in the Tuareg dialect.

In a phone call with Al-Jazeera channel from Brussels, Akli Sheikha, from Tuareg tribes, stressed his tribes' support of those demanding the downfall of Gaddafi's regime.

Zentan Tribe and the Power of the Army

Zentan tribe was early to join the revolution. With the security brigades witnessing wide rifts, many of the tribe's members fought on the side of the revolutionaries against the mercenaries and some of Gaddafi's guards, who are waging a war on the people with light and heavy military weapons. Zentan is one of Libya's biggest Arab tribes, and it is located in the region of Nafusa Mountains.

Bani Walid Tribe Raises the Banner of Disobedience

The tribe of Bani Walid decided to withdraw its sons from the security brigades after information reached members of the tribe that Brigadier General `Abdulla Senoussi – Gaddafi's son-in-law, charged with maintaining control over Misrata – was using the tribe's sons in the security brigades, along with the mercenaries, to suppress the demonstrators in other cities.

Families from Bani Walid contacted their sons among the soldiers and asked them to come back, if possible, and refrain from attacking any protester in Misrata or any other city. Upon the arrival of some buses that transported them to Misrata, they left their positions and joined the protesters. As for those still in Bani Walid, they also learned about the issue and as a result rebelled and fled their camp. It is known that the two cities of Misrata and Bani Walid are socially and administratively linked.

`Obeidat Tribe Causes Rifts in the Security Forces

The tribe of `Obeidat put pressure on its sons to quit the security forces loyal to the regime. Moreover, some reports emerged suggesting that Gen `Abdul-Fattah Younes Al-`Abidi, the Interior Minister, had broken away from Gaddafi following pressure by his tribe, `Obeidat, one of the biggest in Libya. In addition, it was reported that Gen Suleiman Mahmoud Al-`Obeidi had done the same, also after pressure by his tribe and a promise to forget all what he had done since September 1969 coup. As a partial result of the above, rifts grew within the ranks of the forces loyal to `Abdul-Salam Jaloud and they ultimately disintegrated.

Maqarha Tribe and Its as yet Indecisive Position

Some Libyans see a remaining hope in the possibility that Maqarha tribe in the western region – to which Gaddafi's loyalist `Abdul-Salam Gulod belongs – will join the revolt, giving rise to a quicker downfall of the regime. The tribe is expected to join the revolutionaries at any moment, as everyone is certain now that the revolution is on its way to success. Maqarha is deemed one of the most important tribes in Libya.

Finally, as the major tribes in Libya shifted their positions in favor of the revolution, the other tribes may be driven to follow suit before long and decide their stances in support of this revolt. Col Mu`ammar Gaddafi is pursuing every possible means to deal with this unfolding situation, such as holding expanded meetings with the tribal leaders and asking them to help stop the protests. Yet, it seems that the Libyan popular uprising has reached the point of no return.