Libya: From Africa’s Wealthiest Democracy to US-NATO Terror Haven

[jamahir]

I'm sure Donald Trump will run as an Independent if he doesn't win the Republican nomination.

i remember there used to be a old man candidate who was critical of establishment positions on various issues... he had a lugubrious face, i don't remember his name.

and from the 2004 list, i saw howard dean as being one who criticized the iraq war, going against establishment... what is his position and opinions now??

List of third party performances in United States elections - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

i see a "green party" candiate for year 2000... what is their standing now??

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

i remember there used to be a old man candidate who was critical of establishment positions on various issues... he had a lugubrious face, i don't remember his name.

and from the 2004 list, i saw howard dean as being one who criticized the iraq war, going against establishment... what is his position and opinions now??



i see a "green party" candiate for year 2000... what is their standing now??

Well there's been lots of old men running.
No idea about Howard Dean..he has fallen into obscurity.
The Green Party has a completely unknown candidate.

 

[TMA]

Undoubtedly, the destruction of this unique and successful society Libya, is one of the most serious crimes of the USA/West.

Yes indeed it is. I wish to ask what is your opinion on why Russia did not veto the UNSC resolution when it came to Libya? If Russia had done so, Libya would not be NATO controlled land.

 

[Hamartia Antidote]

Yes indeed it is. I wish to ask what is your opinion on why Russia did not veto the UNSC resolution when it came to Libya? If Russia had done so, Libya would not be NATO controlled land.

Add China too.

 

[jamahir]

Well there's been lots of old men running.

 

[gambit]

“The study of human institutions is always a search for the most tolerable imperfections.”
― Richard A. Epstein

The argument that somehow Libya under Gaddafi was a 'democratic' country on a par with the Western democracies is absurd, not just in the theoretical but especially in reality.

The reality is that the fools who presented such arguments are not ignorant of the degrees of 'democratic-ness' among those who claimed that title. If someone who were borned in Libya, never left the country, and have little interactions with the outside world, of course that person would believe that Libya was a 'democratic' country, as much the government's propaganda apparatus is able to churn out such tripe.

Q: Why do dictatorships routinely control access to the outside world, everything from passport to news to mail and now -- the Internet ?

A: Because dictators do not want their people to do exactly what true democracies do: Allow their citizenry to search for, compare amongst, and if necessary amend their countries to be as most tolerant of imperfections as possible.

No country, even the democracies, is ever perfect. But that is precisely the point of being a democracy: The constant reevaluation of the self to see if the people and their government are at least making the effort to reconcile the political differences in the people.

Companion to that is the ability and willingness to do so peacefully.

Given the access to other countries, the fools who presented such arguments -- that Libya was a democratic country -- are guilty of intellectual dishonesty. They are fully capable of making a search, to compare, and make judgement. They know fully within themselves that Libya under Gaddafi was nothing but a common dictatorship. Hardly a democracy no matter how much low level 'democratic-ness' Gaddafi may have allowed the Libyans to exercise.

Calling Libya a 'democratic' country is nothing but a cheap insult at the US for whatever our involvement in the Libya. A dictatorship toppled is a good thing. A democracy overthrown is a bad thing. Accusing the US of direct involvement of the overthrow of a stable dictatorship is a good insult, but accusing the US of direct involvement of the overthrow of a democracy is a great insult. All it takes is a few verbal distortions of principles.

 

[Daneshmand]

“The study of human institutions is always a search for the most tolerable imperfections.”
― Richard A. Epstein

The argument that somehow Libya under Gaddafi was a 'democratic' country on a par with the Western democracies is absurd, not just in the theoretical but especially in reality.

The reality is that the fools who presented such arguments are not ignorant of the degrees of 'democratic-ness' among those who claimed that title. If someone who were borned in Libya, never left the country, and have little interactions with the outside world, of course that person would believe that Libya was a 'democratic' country, as much the government's propaganda apparatus is able to churn out such tripe.

Q: Why do dictatorships routinely control access to the outside world, everything from passport to news to mail and now -- the Internet ?

A: Because dictators do not want their people to do exactly what true democracies do: Allow their citizenry to search for, compare amongst, and if necessary amend their countries to be as most tolerant of imperfections as possible.

No country, even the democracies, is ever perfect. But that is precisely the point of being a democracy: The constant reevaluation of the self to see if the people and their government are at least making the effort to reconcile the political differences in the people.

Companion to that is the ability and willingness to do so peacefully.

Given the access to other countries, the fools who presented such arguments -- that Libya was a democratic country -- are guilty of intellectual dishonesty. They are fully capable of making a search, to compare, and make judgement. They know fully within themselves that Libya under Gaddafi was nothing but a common dictatorship. Hardly a democracy no matter how much low level 'democratic-ness' Gaddafi may have allowed the Libyans to exercise.

Calling Libya a 'democratic' country is nothing but a cheap insult at the US for whatever our involvement in the Libya. A dictatorship toppled is a good thing. A democracy overthrown is a bad thing. Accusing the US of direct involvement of the overthrow of a stable dictatorship is a good insult, but accusing the US of direct involvement of the overthrow of a democracy is a great insult. All it takes is a few verbal distortions of principles.

Who cares about democracy here? Is it a new strawman? The fact of the matter is, Libya was a prosperous and safe country. Until the democracy was brought to it by NATO. Now, it is neither prosperous nor safe.

The truth is, Libya had a functioning government and a state which could deliver. Now it is a failed state ruled by alqaida, thanks to NATO.

And please don't go on this hyperbole of Lockerbie, the record of US is no cleaner. From bombing hospitals and embassies to shooting down civilian airliners full of children. Libyan government gave up its entire nuclear program and made peace with US. What it got in return, bombs and dismantling the state and handing over Libya to alqaida.

And stop this democracy, democracy, foaming at your mouth.

Where is your demand for democracy when it comes to your beloved and most close allies, the Saudi Arabia or Bahrain? You shamelessly even went to several wars to protect the only absolute monarchy on planet earth whose desert fiefdom is named after a family. Didn't you remember democracy then? Pathetic. Where is your call for your democracy when US navy is based in Bahrain? Hypocrites.

 

[jamahir]

Q: Why do dictatorships routinely control access to the outside world, everything from passport to news to mail and now -- the Internet ?

A: Because dictators do not want their people to do exactly what true democracies do: Allow their citizenry to search for, compare amongst, and if necessary amend their countries to be as most tolerant of imperfections as possible.

you arguments are incorrect through very simple things...

1. libya's free education system had students being sponsored by the system to attend foreign colleges/universities since a long time, thereby being exposed to "freedom" in your words, and those students returned to libya and did not quite start rebellions against the jamahiriya system... this is also paralleled by libya's free medical system's sponsorship.

2. how will you prove that libyans did not have free access to internet within libya?? during 2011, a libyan ( within libya ) by name of mohanned magan contacted the mathaba.net website and asked for its help in spreading the words of patriotic libyans which had been suppressed by nato-affiliated media... this was a young man of 23 i think and he was soon interviewed by a female brazilian journalist... he is believed to have been martyred some time after that... in deeper internet search, you will be able to find his photo and his interview... though this is a personal account, it indicates that you are wrong.

3. many libyans who believed in jamahiriya system left for temporary self-exiles to safer places like russia and egypt, and they agitated against the nato invasion from there... look below, it is moscow and the man in center is gennady zyuganov, first secretary of the russian communist party, and the two on either side are libyans...

4. why did nato and its proxy terrorists need to kill 150,000+ libyans by the end of 2012 through extreme torture if all those libyans were waiting for was white house "democracy"??

Given the access to other countries, the fools who presented such arguments -- that Libya was a democratic country -- are guilty of intellectual dishonesty. They are fully capable of making a search, to compare, and make judgement

and these non-libyans after searching and comparing, judged that the jamahiriya system is fantastic... how can you then hold grudge against them??

They know fully within themselves that Libya under Gaddafi was nothing but a common dictatorship.

"libya under gaddafi" is a incorrect phrase because gaddafi didn't rule libya... he resigned from "rule" position in late 1979 and since then was "guide of the revolution" having more a moral influence than hard technical authority... the op indicates this...

For instance, on many occasions Mr. Gaddafi proposed the abolition of capital punishment and he pushed for home schooling over traditional schools. However, the People’s Congresses wanted to maintain the death penalty and classic schools, and the will of the People’s Congresses prevailed. Similarly, in 2009, Colonel Gaddafi put forward a proposal to essentially abolish the central government altogether and give all the oil proceeds directly to each family. The People’s Congresses rejected this idea too

Hardly a democracy no matter how much low level 'democratic-ness' Gaddafi may have allowed the Libyans to exercise.

true democracy is direct-demoracy under socialist guidance, which in your words is "low level democratic-ness"... the op itself shows how people in libyan neighborhoods could get their opinion and ideas up to the top level of the system on local and global issues.

what else do you want??

you should be actually propagating the jamahiriya theory ( third universal theory ) instead of criticizing it.

 

[Nan Yang]

other than that, read this ( Libya’s “Water Wars” and Gaddafi`s Great Man-Made River Project | Global Research - Centre for Research on Globalization )... the "great man-made river" project is the biggest water deliver project in human history... here are some pictures i collected about the "great man-made river" ( 'Water man of India' Rajendra Singh bags top prize ).

And NATO bomb this man made river.

In July 2011, NATO not only bombed the Great Man-Made River water supply pipeline near Brega, but also destroyed the factory that produces the pipes to repair it, claiming in justification that it was used as “a military storage facility” and that “rockets were launched from there”. Six of the facility’s security guards were killed in the NATO attack, and the water supply for the 70% of the population who depend on the piped supply for personal use and for irrigation has been compromised with this damage to Libya’s vital infrastructure.

 

[jamahir]

And NATO bomb this man made river.

In July 2011, NATO not only bombed the Great Man-Made River water supply pipeline near Brega, but also destroyed the factory that produces the pipes to repair it, claiming in justification that it was used as “a military storage facility” and that “rockets were launched from there”. Six of the facility’s security guards were killed in the NATO attack, and the water supply for the 70% of the population who depend on the piped supply for personal use and for irrigation has been compromised with this damage to Libya’s vital infrastructure.

nato was always jealous of the project... from ( How Gaddafi’s Great Man-Made River Project became part of Water Wars - English pravda.ru )...

April 14, 2013 - Libyans called it the eighth wonder of the world. Western media called it a pet project and the pipe dream of a mad dog. The "mad dog" himself in 1991 prophetically said about the largest civil engineering venture in the world: "After this achievement, American threats against Libya will double. The United States will make excuses, but the real reason is to stop this achievement, to keep the people of Libya oppressed."

 

[Obambam]

nato was always jealous of the project... from ( How Gaddafi’s Great Man-Made River Project became part of Water Wars - English pravda.ru )...

And now, they are bombing Syria's electricity network under the false pretense that they are ISIS/ISIL (terrorist) infrastructures, storage or command centers. This not only increases the Syrian government's burden when it comes to rebuilding the nation. It also puts unimaginable pressure on civilians because they are now deprived of basic necessities, security and health care.
Through chaos, they hope to turn them against their own government or allow them to create more so called "free Syrian army" or "ISIS/ISIL" now conveniently labeled as "moderate rebels" (not terrorists) by offering them some form of incentives.

 

[jamahir]

And now, they are bombing Syria's electricity network under the false pretense that they are ISIS/ISIL (terrorist) infrastructures, storage or command centers. This not only increases the Syrian government's burden when it comes to rebuilding the nation. It also puts unimaginable pressure on civilians because they are now deprived of basic necessities, security and health care.
Through chaos, they hope to turn them against their own government or allow them to create more so called "free Syrian army" or "ISIS/ISIL" now conveniently labeled as "moderate rebels" (not terrorists) by offering them some form of incentives.

and i will add to your words the fact of "reconstruction projects" that usa government will want to give to american/western companies in the post-assad syria of their dreams... happened in iraq.

 

[Nan Yang]

There is an old Chinese saying.
What ever you do....good or bad will one day come to bless or curse you.

This Europe refugee crisis is the curse.

 

[TaiShang]

And NATO bomb this man made river.

In July 2011, NATO not only bombed the Great Man-Made River water supply pipeline near Brega, but also destroyed the factory that produces the pipes to repair it, claiming in justification that it was used as “a military storage facility” and that “rockets were launched from there”. Six of the facility’s security guards were killed in the NATO attack, and the water supply for the 70% of the population who depend on the piped supply for personal use and for irrigation has been compromised with this damage to Libya’s vital infrastructure.

And now, they are bombing Syria's electricity network under the false pretense that they are ISIS/ISIL (terrorist) infrastructures, storage or command centers. This not only increases the Syrian government's burden when it comes to rebuilding the nation. It also puts unimaginable pressure on civilians because they are now deprived of basic necessities, security and health care.
Through chaos, they hope to turn them against their own government or allow them to create more so called "free Syrian army" or "ISIS/ISIL" now conveniently labeled as "moderate rebels" (not terrorists) by offering them some form of incentives.

Exactly. US is known to target civilian structures in air campaigns, including hospitals, energy and water systems to cripple the entire population.

Why Is The U.S. Silently Bombing Syria’s Electricity Network?

 

[Zibago]

Exactly. US is known to target civilian structures in air campaigns, including hospitals, energy and water systems to cripple the entire population.

Why Is The U.S. Silently Bombing Syria’s Electricity Network?

Their country transformed from a first world state to a violent mess worse than Somalia

Libya had a really high per capita income before this naked aggression on them by nato