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Li Keqiang hails Pakistan as China's 'iron brother'

I hope more Chinese will participate in discussions because it is important that they learn more about Pakistan and understand - I think Fauji is spot on, Pakistan is a huge and powerful country - if only it had the WILL to assert itself, instead whether Army's Islam or Politicians, through out our history, these two have brought us only one lesson, failure after failure, after failure .

For the economy of Pakistan to change, it's important that the nature of it's politics change -- this was possible if PTI had been allowed to come to power, instead, well we all know -- See, a change in the nature of Pakistani politics is only possible when cultural attitudes change, with the imposition of the PML-N, we have the continuation of the same cultural attitudes and ideas, therefore we will not get the change in the economy we need.

The Chinese Premier has said "We need to help ourselves" -- but if one is operating with cultural attitudes where there is no conception of doing for yourself and nothing can be done with out US or Arabs, well, the Chinese are going to be disappointed by the Pakistanis once again, once again, Pakistanis promise that they will tackle the terrorists who attack China, once again, it is just empty words because PML-N is determined to "negotiate" with terrorists.

Chinese Premier has said that there is "Still" great potential in this relationship, but Pakistani politicians want free cash, not an opportunity to work
 
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Perhaps you missed this part of my post



This is the reality and the way things are headed for Pakistan and India, things are not looking too good for the future.

This is the reality, whether you chose to accept it or not.

However, sometimes, if the external driving force is very powerful than you maximum internal forces, this time, there will be a special moment, I think.

I still have something to look forward for president Sharif, and why? Because "the times" of the force is not stopped. It is the "势(potentia)l" of the force!
 
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I thank our chinese pm for speaking so kindly to us,first of all..
second,this is fact which cannot be denied that Pakistan and China have similar interests: opponent,strategy geopolitical benefits, everything, especially in asian region.
If WE ARE NAMING THIS MUTUAL COOPERATION as brotherhood,then I think that it a great idea.
The Chinese are deep,farsighted and sensible people,they carefully analyse every aspect of their strategy and carefully work on it's application.
where as Pakistanis are sincere towards their friend,we never backstabbed,instead we were backstabbed various times by our so called friend America,where as China,they were always sincere with us.

However, sometimes, if the external driving force is very powerful than you maximum internal forces, this time, there will be a special moment, I think.

I still have something to look forward for president Sharif, and why? Because "the times" of the force is not stopped. It is the "势(potentia)l" of the force!

So,what are your expectations with Mr.Sharif?
 
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However, sometimes, if the external driving force is very powerful than you maximum internal forces, this time, there will be a special moment, I think.

I still have something to look forward for president Sharif, and why? Because "the times" of the force is not stopped. It is the "势(potentia)l" of the force!

I hope you are right. All we can do is wait and see.
 
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So,what are your expectations with Mr.Sharif?

Industrial party, ah, I mean industrial elite? Ha ha ha ha, a joke, I do not know too much about Sharif President, if I have any favor for president Sharif, just such a point? But, Pakistan Aosta will be driven, if Pakistan can seize the "势" in the next few years, then you do not care who is Mr. President.
 
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I thank our chinese pm for speaking so kindly to us,first of all..
second,this is fact which cannot be denied that Pakistan and China have similar interests: opponent,strategy geopolitical benefits, everything, especially in asian region.
If WE ARE NAMING THIS MUTUAL COOPERATION as brotherhood,then I think that it a great idea.
The Chinese are deep,farsighted and sensible people,they carefully analyse every aspect of their strategy and carefully work on it's application.
where as Pakistanis are sincere towards their friend,we never backstabbed,instead we were backstabbed various times by our so called friend America,where as China,they were always sincere with us.
Practice what they preach, friends, and, in exchange, you can get China and the Chinese people's sincere friendship.

I hope you are right. All we can do is wait and see.

It is also dangerous at the same time, depending on whether the Pakistani government and elites to avoid it.
 
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But it not the Zero sum game that you describe -- instead what will happen is that China and India will begin to become economic partners, not just between them but in Asia and the world - just look at the idea of a Corridor that connects Myanmar, Bangla, India and China, the major force pushing that idea is China, and on the Afghan Defense board I put up a thread http://www.defence.pk/forums/afghanistan-defence/254230-afghan-economic-hope.html:

Yes, China does balance India in the region, but it the volume of trade between them that also creates linkages which serve to attenuate the balance such that it becomes unnecessary
We need to move away from this Zero sum game mindset

This is getting somewhat off-topic, but I would urge you to study the dynamics of the China-US relationship, or the China-Japan relationship or the Russia-EU relationship among others. Going back, study the Germany-France relationship.

Economic integration is only one aspect of a relationship. It does not preempt national interests. In fact, in a world of scarce resources, there will always be competition and countries will jockey for position in umpteen different ways, most of them non-military.
 
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....So,what are your expectations with Mr.Sharif?

Mr. Sharif represents "industrialist class" in Pakistan similar to the "Industrialist classes/families" that have contributed most of the progress in China, South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan (and 19th century America, and 18th century England).

However odds are stacked against Sharifs. Because of many reasons.

1. Pakistani intellectual class is deeply divided about the benefits of industrial progress, and thus doesn't share Sharif's vision to turn Pakistan into South Korea.

2. In fact Pakistani intellectual class is hell bent on converting Pakistan into North Korea.

So Sharifs have their work cut out, not because of some external negative forces, but because of the anti-development Pakistani socialists and Islamists.


.... we were backstabbed various times by our so called friend America,where as China,they were always sincere with us.

If we did the same to China as to what we did to USA (by going against the global wishes of China), we too will be kicked in the @rse by Chinese.

This is why I say we must be extremely cautious when dealing with big powers. And not romanticize one or demonize the other.


peace
 
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Mr. Sharif represents "industrialist class" in Pakistan similar to the "Industrialist classes/families" that have contributed most of the progress in China, South Korea, Japan, and Taiwan (and 19th century America, and 18th century England).

However odds are stacked against Sharifs. Because of many reasons.

1. Pakistani intellectual class is deeply divided about the benefits of industrial progress, and thus doesn't share Sharif's vision to turn Pakistan into South Korea.

2. In fact Pakistani intellectual class is hell bent on converting Pakistan into North Korea.

So Sharifs have their work cut out, not because of some external negative forces, but because of the anti-development Pakistani socialists and Islamists.

yes I agree,we should be careful while dealing with other nations,and especially,like I said that we were back stabbed several times before,here the main point is,that which nation has more clear vision for us and how much beneficial,our relationship with them will be.
Pakistan needs to work on her foreign policy once again,since 1947 our policy was a joke and it is still a joke.we need to ensure world that relationships with Pakistan will be beneficial for them rather than blaming world for our weakness.
 
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The Chinese Premier has said "We need to help ourselves" -- but if one is operating with cultural attitudes where there is no conception of doing for yourself and nothing can be done with out US or Arabs,

Sincere friends of Pakistan have said this repeatedly but what to do when the rulers we bring in are not sincere to the country.

Pakistan is a big and strong country. Imagine a growth rate of 3.8% when there are continuous blackouts ad uncertain law and order situation.

Honestly, how difficult it is to resolve these main issues? Not much if you look around. But our inclination to fight others wars for a little cash and some pat on the back and our inherent dishonestly in political culture are the impediments in our real liberation from foreign and personal political interests.

I dont see much of a difference from PPP govt. Some cosmetic things here or there. But just imagine how the rulers who made money using state resources, defaulted on loans and avoided taxes can be thought to be honest and sincere to the cause of Pakistan?
 
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yes I agree,we should be careful while dealing with other nations,and especially,like I said that we were back stabbed several times before,here the main point is,that which nation has more clear vision for us and how much beneficial,our relationship with them will be.
Pakistan needs to work on her foreign policy once again,since 1947 our policy was a joke and it is still a joke.we need to ensure world that relationships with Pakistan will be beneficial for them rather than blaming world for our weakness.


I beg to clarify,

No one "backstabbed" us. EVER!

Not even Indians.

I am not sure about you, and your level of access to the historical data and military intelligence.

Our top management knew at every turn and every moment, who is doing what. We knew what will happen if we do panga in Kashmir. Indians never hid anything from us. The writing was on the wall.

Americans told us BEFORE hand, that if we do panga in Kashmir, they will stop military supplies.


Americans told us BEFORE hand, that if we do nukie business, they will stop military supplies.

Chinese told us BEFORE hand that if there is a war with India, they will NOT deploy their military to defend us.


So my bro!



Backstabbing is totally different concept. You gotta read up the dictionary sometimes.



So please open your mind, and your eyes.

otherwise we'll go from crisis to crisis, like dumbs, deafs, and bunch of blind people.


peace
 
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Friends, we have argued that Pakistan's economy needs to change and that change will not be possible with a change in the nature of Pakistani politics -- The Chinese Premier has "we have to help ourselves" -- Once China needed to change it's economy, and then as Pakistan now, it had to change the nature of their politics, think of Dung Xiao Ping, think of how radicalism was eradicated -- what can we learn from the Chinese??


Learning from China


Hamid L Sharif
Saturday, May 25, 2013


Pakistan’s per capita income in 1978 was greater than China’s ($237 versus $155) but by 2012 China’s per capita income was almost five times greater than Pakistan’s ($1280 versus $6090). Since opening up in 1978 to the global market, China has lifted over 500 million people out of poverty, and today is the world’s second largest economy.

The Chinese government has no pretensions of exporting its development model and realises that each country has its own unique circumstances, and must forge its own development path. Yet does China’s experience offer any lessons for other developing countries like Pakistan? I would identify three characteristics of China’s development that bear wider consideration:

First, China’s voracious and eclectic appetite for knowledge and know-how is remarkable. At all levels of government and society, people strive to learn – but not ape. The Chinese often adapt practices from elsewhere ‘with Chinese characteristics’ – shorthand for contextualising international experience within China’s specific circumstances. What this implies is a high degree of local deliberations and above small-scale experimentation, assessment of local experiences, ownership and recognition of successful models. Development advice is not ‘imported’ at face value and uncritically adopted.

As China began seeking foreign development assistance and advice, it also started to develop the capacity to weigh such advice. The key to this was its ability to refine the nature of the development problem so that it could make choices best suited to its conditions.

Second, China’s government agencies follow a highly disciplined process in development planning. All government institutions that will have anything to do with the design and implementation of a development project are brought on board during the design process. The various departments and agencies represent different interests in society.

Officials from various ministries and departments pore over draft project documents for days – if not weeks or even months – to design a project and understand their role in this process. This ensures that the projects better reflect the financial and human resources of the agencies responsible for implementation, operation and maintenance. This is far removed from experience in some other countries where implementation issues are sadly an afterthought.


Third, China has a capable civil service that is incentivised to deliver. This is no mean feat. China is the home of the proverbial ‘mandarins’. It has known a system of competitive merit-based examinations for the civil service since the Sui Dynasty (581-618 AD). Last year more than 970,000 candidates competed for 18,000 positions. Under Premier Zhu Rongji, China saw massive civil service downsizing and today, on a per capita basis, it has one of the most efficient civil services in the world.

Civil servants in China work long hours and competition is intense. With a massive number of micro blogs and netizens, accountability of civil servants is increasing. While corruption continues to be a menace, lapses of government servants are increasingly openly documented and discussed, resulting in the dismissal of some civil servants. This is also leading to louder calls for greater transparency and disclosure of information.

In contrast, state capacity in some developing countries is woefully inadequate and there is little accountability. The mantra of ‘ownership’ that development gurus preach cannot be fulfilled in these countries without addressing the severe lack of capacity and opportunity to make policy, plan, design and implement it. Ownership is not just about political commitment. It is also about the ability of a professional civil service to generate policy options for the political leadership, and the ability to plan, implement, and evaluate.

In many developing countries civil service capacity is compromised by lack of independence, inadequate training, weak accountability frameworks, lack of information disclosure, and disincentives to explore innovation.

Civil service reform is perhaps toughest to implement and it is not surprising that there aren’t many successes in the developing world. Yet any serious effort to address the myriad problems of development that countries like Pakistan face must begin with an earnest effort to reform the civil service. The technical expertise and professional conduct of the civil service must also be enhanced to create the capacity for policymaking, planning, and implementation.

Civil service reform, however, will not be easy. There are vested interests that will resist change. It is, therefore, telling that civil service reform is absent from Pakistan’s political discourse and reformist agenda. In the lead up to the elections no party focused on this issue. While many have spoken of the challenges facing Pakistan including corruption and inefficiency, improving the workings of Pakistan’s civil service is largely unremarked.

One saving grace of Pakistan’s current system is that it still recruits top civil servants on merit. It is a tragedy that, following a colonial service ethos, combined with deteriorating governance, many of these bright recruits are turned into glorified troubleshooters or, more so, into members of an elite class that is an equal partner in the corruption that politicians stand accused of. There can be no corruption by politicians without corrupt or spineless civil servants. Should citizens believe politicians who promise an end to corruption without civil service reform?

A top priority of the new PML-N government must be to embark on the tough road to civil service reform to strengthen state capacity to serve the people.

The writer is Asian Development Bank’s country director in the People’s Republic of China. The views expressed are his own.
 
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If there is one thing that we can be proud about our political establishment is how they have cultivated this relationship with China.

Its a great partnership, I am sure regardless of the situation, any war happens and Pakistan will always have China's back.

China have already passed this test, they issued an ultimatum to Washington after the Osama episode where US were contemplating invasion. They said "to invade Pakistan would be the same as invading China". True Brothers.

And you trust them? I believe its just for the media. Not real.
 
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Some observations:

At least some Pakistanis are beginning to look beyond the verbiage and into the substance.

Several people realize that something needs to change. That Pakistan can't allow itself to be a tool of this or that benefactor forever.

There is still a good number who feel that "China cares for us" unlike other previous benefactors.

There is some realization that China will do things in it's own interests (like every other country including Pakistan does). This is completely legitimate.

While there is some appreciation that something has to change at a fundamental level, there are still people who can't brook any change from what they feel is the fundamental raison d'etre of Pakistan: "to prevent the US from hoisting India as the regional sheriff". This worldview many times come from people who have "given up on Pakistan" (their own words) and are safely ensconced far away to feel the daily impact of the havoc that this decades old policy has wrought on the country.

The impact of such thinking on the 200 million people of Pakistan (leave alone the billions in the region) seems to be either not a concern at all or at best a secondary concern to such people. Their pet peeves are more important. Such people also probably pass as "strategic thinkers" or at least have that self image.

One hopes the decision makers can see beyond the failed policies of the past, not remain stuck on unattainable "geo-strategic goals" and give top priority to the welfare of the people.

This would mean moving away from being an "ideological state" that made Pakistan a "security state". Pakistan needs to be become a normal state meant for maximizing the welfare of the ordinary Pakistanis.
 
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