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Lets bank the Islamic way?

However, if I want to buy a home, i dont have much resources, i contact an islamic bank, they say, ok we buy a home for you. initially you have to pay a 30% cost of house. You live in there for a period say of 10 years. During that 10 years you will have to pay rent per month. as per terms agreed, I will have the first right of refusal to buy that house after period of 10 years at a certain amount (which i ll definitely pay considering the market value that will go up for the home).
It seems that the term "interrest" has been exchanged for "rent". But in the Netherlands there are a lot of legal consequences for this construction.
1. Taxation. The bank,being the legal owner of the property, has to pay all kinds of local and national taxes on the property. The person "buying" the house has to pay VAT on the rent, adding 19% to the rent.
2. Liability. The bank, being the owner of the property, has all the responsebilities of a landlord.
 
The current crises was due to irresponsible lending by the bankers, they ignored the guidlines and handed money to everyone. if this happens in any system, it causes problem.
 
It seems that the term "interrest" has been exchanged for "rent". But in the Netherlands there are a lot of legal consequences for this construction.
1. Taxation. The bank,being the legal owner of the property, has to pay all kinds of local and national taxes on the property. The person "buying" the house has to pay VAT on the rent, adding 19% to the rent.
2. Liability. The bank, being the owner of the property, has all the responsebilities of a landlord.

You people pay 19% VAT in Netherlands? wow..thats really high..
 
@ SMR

You remind me of a little story that was circulating in the mails a few days back.

It goes like this....

It is a slow day in a damp little Irish town. The rain is beating down and the streets are deserted. Times are tough, everybody is in debt, and everybody lives on credit. “On this particular day a rich German tourist is driving through the town, stops at the local hotel and lays a €100 note on the desk, telling the hotel owner he wants to inspect the rooms upstairs in order to pick one to spend the night. “The owner gives him some keys and, as soon as the visitor has walked upstairs, the hotelier grabs the €100 note and runs next door to pay his debt to the butcher. The butcher takes the €100 note and runs down the street to repay his debt to the pig farmer. “The pig farmer takes the €100 note and heads off to pay his bill at the supplier of feed and fuel. The guy at the Farmers' Co-op takes the €100 note and runs to pay his drinks bill at the pub. The publican slips the money along to the local prostitute drinking at the bar, who has also been facing hard times and has had to offer him ‘services’ on credit. “The hooker then rushes to the hotel and pays off her room bill to the hotel owner with the €100 note. The hotel proprietor then places the €100 note back on the counter so the rich traveller will not suspect anything. “At that moment the traveller comes down the stairs, picks up the €100 note, states that the rooms are not satisfactory, pockets the money, and leaves town. “No one produced anything. No one earned anything. However, the whole town is now out of debt and looking to the future with a lot more optimism.
 
10.2 % in India.... I have a problem with it...
I will have problem if they raise the income tax, in that case those who work will be the only losers, but in case of VAT, everybody will have to pay, which is good.
 
I will have problem if they raise the income tax, in that case those who work will be the only losers, but in case of VAT, everybody will have to pay, which is good.

What is the limit for IT exemption in UK? Pardon my ignorance.
 
Income tax....typing with one hand actually...sipping tea...hence the shortcuts :D

ohh ok. yes, there is a threshold for people who wont pay income tax, i think it is anything under £6000? something like that.
 
Take it easy. I'm not suggesting the world should adopt Islamic banking principles. A lot of your post is in response to what you "wanted to see in my post", and not what I have actually written.

Even in your last sentence, you assumed I said banks are in bad shape. I never said that. It's actually the other way around: the whole world is in bad shape, except the banks.

Well nvm, I don't have too much time to argue. You sound like an intelligent man so I'm providing you two links on how the banks contributed to the world economic meltdown. The first is for people without basic knowledge on economics and finance (not that you are one), but it's very interesting to watch:

The American Dream By The Provocateur Network - YouTube

This one consists of 4 episodes. Here is the first one:

Episode 1: The men who crashed the world - YouTube

You see, I wasn't bs'ing about links. :D

PS: I'm as atheist as you are - so if you have to pick someone to fight with on the basis of religion, count me out! :)

My assumption was based on your reply to my assertion "None of the current problem with banks is due to charging interest."
Please revisit your post, and tell me whether that is not what will come to your mind. Thanks for clarification btw.

I will surely see those documentaries, but in meantime, I would urge you to write the arguments here and give links for additional information/support to your assertion.

About me fighting based on religion (or lackof it), I am not doing that in this thread(Probably your assumption). I would question it with equal vigour if an atheist has to come up and say "Atheist way of banking is much better" without giving any solid reason why.
 
So, in other words, I will chose to call "Interest", "Profit" and that makes it "Islamic"?? Wah, Saeb - islam for idiots ?

In fact what is being claimed as Islamic in the case of Islamic banking is a brand new formulation of Islamists - The three montheistic religions have strong admonistions and sanctions against USURY and not interest, but our Marxist inspiried ideologues of Islam-ism wish to market this rubbish as if it were Islam they were marketing .

I think this will give us more insight in the issue:

gulfnews : Search Results

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We will discuss the first of various Islamic products, which have been modified for use as financing vehicles. It is Ijara or leasing.

What do I mean when I say modified? For example, if Ahmed employs Badar for his services and pays him a wage, Ahmed will be called Mustajir or employer and Badar Aajir or employee whereas the transaction will be termed Ijara or hiring and the wage Ujrah.

Apply these terms to an asset, for example a car. In this case, Aajir will be the owner of the car, Mustajir who is currently using it, the amount paid by Mustajir will be Ujrah and the whole transaction will be called Ijara.

To understand it more clearly, note that in the above transaction while the basic concept is similar to a sale whereby an asset is transferred to another party for a monetary consideration, it is important to note that the Ijara merely allows transfer of the right of use to Mustajir (lessee) whereas the corpus of the asset continues to remain with Aajir (lessor).

As such, it is often said that Ijara is originally not a mode of financing but an ordinary business activity improvised to serve as a financing tool.


Following are the 10 main principles of Ijara:

1. An Ijara transaction takes place when the owner of an asset transfers its right of use to another person or entity for a specified period and at an agreed monetary consideration.

2. The asset transferred under Ijara must have some purposeful use. Therefore, things having no such use (e.g. gold and jewellery) cannot be considered under Ijara.

3. It is necessary for a valid Ijara contract that the corpus of the leased asset remains in the ownership of the Aajir or lessor.

4. Anything fully consumable by its use cannot be leased. Examples are grain and other eatables, fuel, money, etc. As such a leased asset must have a value upon completion of the agreed lease period.

5. Any liability emerging from the ownership of the asset such as property tax will be the responsibility of lessor. Similarly, the liabilities related to the use of the property such as utility charges etc shall be borne by the lessee.

6. Lessee is restricted from using the leased asset other than for the purpose clearly spelt in the lease agreement.

7. Lessee is liable to compensate the lessor for any damage caused to the leased asset by virtue of his negligence or misuse.

8. However, lessee will not be responsible for any damage caused to the asset without his negligence such as destruction of the property due to an earthquake or flooding. In this case, the lease will cease to exist and any prepaid lease rent will be refundable by the lessor.

9. A joint owner of an asset can lease his share in the asset only to his partner(s). However, all the owners can jointly lease the asset to a third party.

10. Fixation of various lease amounts for different periods is allowable under Ijara provided it is pre-agreed. For example a stepping-up rent in a shopping mall for premises on a long-term lease.

Islamic banks quite commonly use Ijara as a means of financing the real estate, vehicles, vessels and plant and machinery, etc. However, it will be in the fitness of things to clarify certain misgivings on the lease rent (profit) levied by the Islamic banks by benchmarking it on the fluctuating interest rate models such as Libor/Eibor.

First of all, there are two main reasons for doing that:

A) Absence of an internationally acceptable Islamic benchmark for profit such as Libor in the conventional banking.

B) Reluctance on the part of a lessee to enter into an Ijara agreement where he could end up paying an amount higher than the interest, if he was dealing with a conventional bank.

As there are few Islamic banks in the UAE or GCC compared with a large number of conventional banks, it becomes essential on the part of Islamic banks to remain competitive and as such adjust their profit earnings close to the market. By not doing so, they may not be able to achieve the purpose of adding value to the trusted investments of their shareholders and depositors.

Therefore, the Ijara agreements adopted by the Islamic banks provide that for the sake of clarity, the rental will be equal to a benchmark interest rate at the start of an Ijara period (such as 3-month Libor/Eibor) plus a constant spread called margin. The rent is readjusted for each Ijara period on the same basis for the Islamic banks to remain in line with the market.

The objection raised against this practice is that, by subjecting the rental payments equal to a rate of interest, the transaction is rendered akin to an interest-based financing.

The reply to this argument is that so long as all other Sharia parameters are fulfilled, the Ijara agreement may use any benchmark for determining the amount of periodical rental.

Remember that the core difference between conventional financial leasing and Ijara is that in Ijara lessor assumes full risk of the corpus of the leased asset. If the asset is destroyed during the lease period without lessee's negligence, the lessor will bear the full loss besides also losing the right to continue to earn rent. In addition, the lessor will be required to refund any prepaid rent to lessee.

It is thus clear that the use of the rate of interest merely as a benchmark does not render the contract invalid and parallel to an interest-based transaction.

Another objection raised by certain quarters to this arrangement is that future variation in Libor/Eibor rate being unknown, the rental thus tied up with it will tantamount to Gharar (uncertainty) and Jahala (ignorance) which is forbidden in Sharia since it is a primary condition that all considerations in a contract must be clearly known and understood to the parties entering into it.

My research says that the element of Gharar and Jahala in a financial transaction was prohibited to avoid dispute. This aspect is absent in Ijara due to written agreement from both parties upon a well-defined benchmark that will serve as a criterion for determining the rent. Needless to say that whatever amount is arrived at, based on this benchmark, will be acceptable to both parties.

Another reason attributing interest benchmarking to Gharar and Jahala is that the lessee could incur sizable loss in case of sudden jump in interest rates. On the other hand, it is equally possible that the interest rates take a plunge, thereby causing loss to the lessor. An easy solution to such unexpected developments could be to set the top and bottom caps on the rate of rent to avoid it from taking a wild swing.

gulfnews : Islamic Finance: Factors that make Ijara stand out in the mart

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I will have problem if they raise the income tax, in that case those who work will be the only losers, but in case of VAT, everybody will have to pay, which is good.
VAT is paid by both rich and poor( like all indirect taxes). Do you want poor people to be taxed at same rate as middle class and rich people? Why?

I am not against VAT btw.
 
Those who are saying there isn't any difference between "profit" earned in Islamic banking and "interest" charged in conventional banking, will also say there isn't any difference in slaughtering animal the Islamic way and non Islamic way when there is a HUGE difference.
What if I slaughter an animal with knife but doesn't take Allah's name. It looks similar to another guy slaughtering an animal using knife taking Allah's name but you can see there is a big difference.
So these subtle differences (which may seem similar to naked eye) makes huge difference between these two systems.
 
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