Let the truce flag go up - Bluster should make way for peace initiatives with Pakistan

[Path-Finder]

summary of the article is that India need peace to prepare its bunkers and trenches for another escalation.

That is 100 x correct!

 

[notorious_eagle]

Each passing day Indians are more and more desperate...
BAT, ATGM (Raytheon’s TOW 2A, HJ-8), mortar shelling etc.
Now Indians are talking peace...
But can we trust them?

There is nothing wrong with talking peace. In fact, this absurdity needs to END right now.

These skirmishes are not only tragic, but outright crimes being committed by both sides. They are not changing the status quo, the only thing that is resulting is loss of lives of innocent soldiers. Families are loosing their loved ones for what, just the stroking of ego. India can easily replace the loss of its soldiers, and so can Pakistan. But in this grand macro di** measuring contest, poor troopers on the front lines are getting blasted away. What has been achieved with these skirmishes? Has India been able to take any Pakistani posts, or vice versa?

It's nothing to gloat about. I just feel sad to where humanity has come to.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My comprehension was clear about your statement and insinuation directed at Pakistanis I responded in plain English about Indians.

LOL.

Your English is fine.

There is nothing wrong with talking peace. In fact, this absurdity needs to END right now.

These skirmishes are not only tragic, but outright crimes being committed by both sides. They are not changing the status quo, the only thing that is resulting is loss of lives of innocent soldiers. Families are loosing their loved ones for what, just the stroking of ego. India can easily replace the loss of its soldiers, and so can Pakistan. But in this grand macro di** measuring contest, poor troopers on the front lines are getting blasted away. What has been achieved with these skirmishes? Has India been able to take any Pakistani posts, or vice versa?

It's nothing to gloat about. I just feel sad to where humanity has come to.

Only a few sensible, humane voices are left on this forum. I cannot tell you how pleased I was to read your post, and to count yours among those voices.

 

[notorious_eagle]

Only a few sensible, humane voices are left on this forum. I cannot tell you how pleased I was to read your post, and to count yours among those voices.

My pleasure Hon Joe Sb. Hope all is well at your side Sir.

Have you been following the Syrian Civil War? The deployment of Russian Advisors on the ground is very interesting to watch as a student of military warfare. The art of Russian Operational Manoeuvres is a treat to observe as the Syrian Army tries to execute its operational battles along the lines of Russian thinking. I would encourage you to read up on the Second Battle for Aleppo, a classic Russian Manoeuvre executed quite well for the likes of the Syrian Army.

 

[Joe Shearer]

My pleasure Hon Joe Sb. Hope all is well at your side Sir.

Have you been following the Syrian Civil War? The deployment of Russian Advisors on the ground is very interesting to watch as a student of military warfare. The art of Russian Operational Manoeuvres is a treat to observe as the Syrian Army tries to execute its operational battles along the lines of Russian thinking. I would encourage you to read up on the Second Battle for Aleppo, a classic Russian Manoeuvre executed quite well for the likes of the Syrian Army.

Thank you for the pointer. There is little or no news in Indian publications, and it would have been a treat to follow these indicators. Now that you have mentioned it, I shall dig around for information.

It strikes me very often that following military matters is two orders of magnitude easier in an information-rich Western environment than it is here.

 

[Khanate]

Pakistan was never referred to as a movement purely for people from modern day Pakistan, hence why so many other areas across Hindustan that were Muslim were originally involved. Your map shows this clearly.

Profound ignorance.

The map shows the exact opposite of what you are saying. To further strengthen my point, I'll quote Choudhry Rahmat Ali — the man who came up with the word Pakistan. Direct quote from Ch. Rahmat Ali's infamous speech Now or Never; Are We to Live or Perish Forever?

“At this solemn hour in the history of India, when British and Indian statesmen are laying the foundations of a Federal Constitution for that land, we address this appeal to you, in the name of our common heritage, on behalf of our thirty million Muslim brethren who live in PAKSTAN—by which we mean the five Northern units of India, Viz: Punjab, North-West Frontier Province (Afghan Province), Kashmir, Sind and Baluchistan.”​

Seriously, how did you pass your Pakistan Studies class without learning:

• P — Punjab
• A — Afghania (Khyber Pakhtunkhwa)
• K — Kashmir
• S — Sindh
• TAN — Balochistan

Now this looks all geography to me i.e. the Muslims of Indus Basin.

Need I also remind you about Bangladesh?

Exactly.

Where is Bangladesh?

It's only coincidental that most Muslims of Hindustan happened to live in modern day Pakistan. If we lived in Utter Pradesh or Bangalore, Pakistan would have still been created (might have been given a different name, but that's irrelevant).

Speculation. No argument.

Learn your history so you can formulate an argument without coincidence.

Muhammad Bin Qasim being Arab means jack all

"Show some respect".

Pakistan only exists because of the Islamic conquests of Hindustan. No Islamic conquests means no Pakistan, and since Qasim was the first of the (major) conquerors, he gets the title of first Pakistani. He also had many locals working in both his administration and his military, and many Pakistanis are descended from Arabs who migrated to the region during (and after) his conquests (although, they would still probably have an overwhelmingly local ancestry, so the Arab genetics would probably be difficult to detect) so he's not some evil foreign entity. This nation exists because of Qasim. Show some respect.

Desperate speculation. No argument.

Where did you read Muhammad Bin Qasim is "some evil foreign entity"? Grasping at straws.

He was still recognised though, which further proves my point.

This is what you said:

...there's a reason Jinnah called Qasim the first Pakistani​

Jinnah never called an Arab general the first Pakistani.

Turns out I was wrong, Jinnah didn't call Qasim the first Pakistani. He said that the Pakistan movement started with Qasim. I'll give a source:

http://www.findpk.com/cybercity/pof/pakistan_movement.html

You can find even more if you use Google.

Wrong, again.

The quote associated with Jinnah is, "The Pakistan Movement started when the first Muslim put his foot on the soil of Sindh, the Gateway of Islam in India."

The quote never mentions Muhammad Bin Qasim. And there is a documented 60 year long effort by different Arab rulers to find a beachhead in Makran and Sindh. Hence, Muhammad Bin Qasim is not the first Muslim, or even to first Arab, to have put his foot on the soil of Sindh.

China is no substitute for the Ummah because they have a totally different ideology to us. I don't mind us working together to achieve mutual interests, but let's keep it at that.

My interest as a Pakistani is resolving the Kashmir issue.

• Arab League has 'no position' on Kashmir
• Arab League skirts Kashmir

That last point is stupid and irrelevant to the argument.

You quoted Muhammad Ali Jinnah in your argument. Of course, it is relevant to ask why he isn't your role model?

A few more pictures:

What is there to not like about this thoroughly modern man?

 

[Safriz]

https://twitter.com/x/status/962388116534329345

 

[Hamza913]

Profound ignorance.

The map shows the exact opposite of what you are saying. To further strengthen my point, I'll quote Choudhry Rahmat Ali — the man who came up with the word Pakistan. Direct quote from Ch. Rahmat Ali's infamous speech Now or Never; Are We to Live or Perish Forever?

“At this solemn hour in the history of India, when British and Indian statesmen are laying the foundations of a Federal Constitution for that land, we address this appeal to you, in the name of our common heritage, on behalf of our thirty million Muslim brethren who live in PAKSTAN—by which we mean the five Northern units of India, Viz: Punjab, North-West Frontier Province (Afghan Province), Kashmir, Sind and Baluchistan.”​

Seriously, how did you pass your Pakistan Studies class without knowing:

• P — Punjab
• A — Afghania (Khyber Pakhtunkhwa)
• K — Kashmir
• S — Sindh
• TAN — Balochistan

Now this looks all geography to me i.e. the Muslims of Indus Basin.





Exactly.

Where is Bangladesh?





Speculation. No argument.

Learn geography so you formulate an argument without coincidence.





"Show some respect".





Desperate speculation. No argument.

Where did you read Muhammad Bin Qasim is "some evil foreign entity"? Grasping at straws.





This is what you said:

...there's a reason Jinnah called Qasim the first Pakistani​

Jinnah never called an Arab general the first Pakistani.





Wrong, again.

The quote associated with Jinnah is, "The Pakistan Movement started when the first Muslim put his foot on the soil of Sindh, the Gateway of Islam in India."

The quote never mentions Muhammad Bin Qasim. And there is a documented 60 year long effort by different Arab rulers to find a beachhead in Makran and Sindh. Hence, Muhammad Bin Qasim is not the first Muslim, or even to first Arab, to have put his foot on the soil of Sindh.





My interest as a Pakistani is resolving the Kashmir issue.

• Arab League has 'no position' on Kashmir
• Arab League skirts Kashmir

You quoted Muhammad Ali Jinnah in your argument. Of course, it is relevant to ask why he isn't your role model?

A few more pictures:

What is there to not like about this great and thoroughly modern man?

Like I said, it's purely coincidental that the Muslims of Hindustan were concentrated along the Indus River. Rehmat Ali himself clearly says Muslim before mentioning the region. Nobody put the major emphasis on ethnicity, unlike most new wave nationalists on this forum.

As for Muhammad Bin Qasim, Jinnah might have not been referencing him, but he's still considered the first Pakistani. Again, it's not Dulla Bhatti, Adina Beg or even powerful Muslim conquerors from Pakistan such as Sikander Butshikan or Ghazi Malik, but Muhammad Bin Qasim, an Arab.

Your point about Jinnah is a condescending one, you assume me to be uncivilised.

 

[khanmubashir]

Interest

Pravin Sawhney

THE year 2018 does not augur well for the stability of the LoC between India and Pakistan. The latter has reportedly done 240 ceasefire violations since the New Year against eight in the same period last year. Consequently, India has been compelled to evacuate hundreds of civilians living close to the LoC.

Pakistan has upped the ante by using Anti-Tank Guided Missiles (ATGM) to blast Indian observation posts. The Pakistan army today has more tactical-level options since India frittered away its lead in this war-domain by the militarily ill-conceived September 2016 surgical strikes. This was the proverbial last straw on the camel’s back as India has now lost its deterrence at all levels of war, namely, strategic (politico-military), operational (warfighting) and now tactical (battles) against Pakistan.

Ironically, it has been the NDA governments of Vajpayee and Modi, which claimed to be the best custodians of national security, that have harmed it the most. A common-sense dictum lost on these governments is this: for militarily powerful nations, like the US, Russia and now China, deterrence (ability to generate fear in enemies) is directly proportional to showcasing its might. The converse is true for nations with limited military resources; the more they hide their military capabilities, the more deterred the enemy remains because of uncertainty.

India’s 1998 N-tests blunted its strategic options since Pakistan followed suit to restore the strategic balance. With the fear of the unknown big bomb over, deterrence shifted to a lower level about which side would undertake the transition from conventional to nuclear war better. Pakistan scores in this since, unlike India, its conventional and nuclear assets are under the command and control of the Pakistan army chief. Similarly, the 2001-2002 Operation Parakram (the 10-month military face-off), where India’s coercive deterrence failed, blunted its operational-level capabilities vis-à-vis Pakistan. India lost nearly 900 soldiers to obsolete land-mines (details in Gen VK Singh’s book Courage and Conviction), took over three weeks for mobilisation and finally did nothing. The fear of the Indian Army’s capabilities was over for Pakistan.

The 2016 surgical strikes did worse. The LoC is about tactical-level dominance, which is essential by itself in peace-time and provides ingress for offensive forces during war. By announcing immediately that it did not intend to do any further tactical-level strikes, India confirmed its unpreparedness for escalation to warfighting level.

It may have established its Special Forces’ limited capabilities and capacities for even small battles, when these forces, the world over, are used, with stealth and denial, for strategic and operational-level gains. Having achieved the upper hand at the tactical level by India’s unsubstantiated bravado, the recent use of direct-firing, optically-tracked and state-of-the-art ATGM in Rajouri sector of the LoC, which killed four Indian soldiers, was the natural choice for the Pakistan army.

In all probability, the Chinese origin 4-km range HJ-8F bunker-buster with thermobaric warhead (which uses atmospheric oxygen to produce longer and lethal blast) were used to hit and blast the Indian bunker. The use of HJ-8F ATGM by Pakistan has created three problems for our Army. One, India, unlike Pakistan, has limited Steel Permanent Defences (SPD) which can withstand even the direct hit of a 155mm artillery shell. Most bunkers, including hundreds of observation bunkers meant to track infiltration, are made of concrete, which can be blasted by HJ-8F ATGMs.

The big task for the Army would be to strengthen its bunkers to SPD-level. This will entail huge financial and manpower resources over an extended period. Two, given the interoperability between Pakistan and China, the latter would be willing to give its stocks of HJ-8F ATGMs to Pakistan so that its use is not restricted by paucity of numbers. The Indian Army, not having this luxury, would need to ration its old-generation and critically-low ATGM stocks. The argument being made by Generals that India should retaliate with long-range artillery guns (like before the November 2003 ceasefire) is flawed. It would put the burden of escalation on India. Also, it is no secret that let alone meagre stocks of artillery ammunition, there are critical deficiencies of artillery fuses meant to fire shells (pointed out by two consecutive CAG reports).

And three, the Indian Army, unlike Pakistan, has limited communication trenches which provide safe passage from one bunker to another. Hundreds now would need to be built under direct enemy fire. If this was not enough, China, as evident from the reported 48 per cent increase in face-offs in 2017, would ensure that the Indian Army is unable to shift its assets from north to west facing Pakistan.

Unless the government is prepared to live with the unending, and completely unnecessary bloodbath on the LoC, it should open multi-prong conversations with Pakistani leadership. In addition to formalising talks between the two director-generals of military operations, the two national security advisers should look beyond terrorism. Perhaps, a back channel should be established for preliminary discussions on Kashmir. This would also give an opening to the government’s interlocutor on Kashmir, Dineshwar Sharma, who has hit a wall in the Valley with nobody willing to talk to him. Perhaps, this would also stem the tide of local boys from joining terrorist groups.

Of course, all this will not be easy for the Modi government, given its penchant for bravado. But it should draw inspiration from its strategic partner, the US. Notwithstanding his harangue against Pakistan, President Trump has done a climb-down for his national interest. A lesson from recent history will do the PM no harm. The most peaceful years in Kashmir since the insurgency began were when India and Pakistan were engaged in a dialogue from 2004 to 2008. And even as the process with Pakistan begins, the government must advise serving and retired officers to replace manufactured rage against Pakistan with prescriptive suggestions for peace on television shows. For all their worth, they are taken seriously by multitudes. Similar counsel should be given to news anchors, who, while remaining level-headed on China, go ballistic on Pakistan, waging wars in their studios. If India does not make a serious effort towards peace now, it will continue to lose its young, well-trained soldiers.

http://www.tribuneindia.com/news/comment/let-the-truce-flag-go-up/541437.html


@Windjammer @BHarwana @Areesh

Each passing day Indians are more and more desperate...
BAT, ATGM (Raytheon’s TOW 2A, HJ-8), mortar shelling etc.
Now Indians are talking peace...
But can we trust them?

India has now lost its deterrence at all levels of war, namely, strategic (politico-military), operational (warfighting) and now tactical (battles) against Pakistan.
From the article

 

[Signalian]

BTW Pakistan X corps along LoC has a mere 5 artillery regiments whereas India's XV & XVI corps have 8 artillery regiments along LoC.

You have no idea what you are talking about. It ridiculous to even think that a stretch of 700+ km is to be covered by only 5 or 8 artillery regiments.

PA 10 Corps has nearly 20 Artillery regiments distributed between 3 infantry Divs (12th, 19th 23rd), FCNA and independent armor, infantry and artillery brigades(Corps HQ assets). 12th infantry Div has 6-7 artillery regiments since its strength is double than a normal infantry division, 6 infantry Brigades.

It's more senseless to assume that IA 15 Corps and 16 Corps have only 8 artillery regiments. There are at least 18 Artillery regiments. If 14 Corps is taken into account also then, around 24 artillery regiments in total.

 

[dilpakistani]

Well despite what is happening we should hope and strive for the peaceful LOC... people are dying on both sides.... there is no glory in that

 

[Signalian]

I dont know the strength.. but I do know that unlike india ... Pakistan isn’t struggling with arty.

Please dont trust an Indian troll with figures and numbers who brainlessly assigned 5 artillery regiments to the largest Corps HQ of PA.

 

[Viking 63]

LOL.

Your English is fine; your comprehension is not. 1-1, I'd say.

Man I just got back from Niagara Falls to read 'No Comprehension' you ruined my day !!



Only a few sensible, humane voices are left on this forum. I cannot tell you how pleased I was to read your post, and to count yours among those voices.

 

[El Sidd]

Peace does not do good for the mother of terrorism India

 

[Joe Shearer]

Profound ignorance.

<...snipped...>

A few more pictures:

What is there to not like about this thoroughly modern man?

What an astonishing post!

Thank you very much.