Lessons from 1965 and 1971 wars

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Josh,

I don't respond to him since he has the attitude that I brought out. Blame the world.

I was amazed at the posts in that thread where he could not logically explain to Agnostic and instead came on all guns blazing firing blanks!

To those who think 1962 is not important to India:

1962 is a not missed in Indian textbooks or commentaries. It is an important landmark. It is a reminder to not think that Gandhigiri can come to your rescue when the chips are down. It is a reminder to Prepare or Perish. It is an important dateline!

 

[blain2]

Josh,

I don't respond to him since he has the attitude that I brought out. Blame the world.

I was amazed at the posts in that thread where he could not logically explain to Agnostic and instead came on all guns blazing firing blanks!

Salim,

At least have the courtesy to address me directly. If not then you can PM Josh to discuss my attitude with him privately.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I would address you directly only if you did not go tangentially ballistic and take the thread off its hinges!

It is difficult to debate with one who would call the Moon the Sun! I would even accept it so, had the facts to prove so was given! Emotion and bland statements do not lead to knowledge. All smoke and no fire!

I was avoiding problems that I could do well without.

You missed out this:

1962 is a not missed in Indian textbooks or commentaries. It is an important landmark. It is a reminder to not think that Gandhigiri can come to your rescue when the chips are down. It is a reminder to Prepare or Perish. It is an important dateline!

I don't shy away from the truth!

 

[EagleEyes]

I was amazed at the posts in that thread where he could not logically explain to Agnostic and instead came on all guns blazing firing blanks!

Salim, could you kindly explain this statements of yours? Agnostic hasn't even posted in this entire thread! What happened in other threads stay there. Report if you like.

As far as accusing blain for going ballistic, please dont even try. He hasn't made a single comment against you.

Now please kindly discuss the topic, and if you dont want to reply to someone for some reason, it is wise to keep it to yourself, than exploding your emotional desires on the forum. Especially important when it deals with moderators or think-tank.

I hope we are all good now. Please continue the topic via further responses regarding this issue. PM blain if you have issues, and he will be happy to fix them for you.

Thanks.

 

[F.O.X]

This takes the cake!

In fact, the whole article is ever so interesting and so beyond facts.

This is typical answer by any indian in any forum when we put truth in front of them they just close eyes & ommit that nothin ever like htis ever happen, be a Man to accept the truth.

Now, even Mujib and the Bangladeshi are US agents! I thought that they were Indian agents. Now, it appears they have been upgraded!

Bangladesh=India=USA, whatever you say equation remains same.

There is much to learn from the 1965 and 1971 War for both Pakistan and India.

I dont know about India but for Pakistan yes there is many thing to like never take your eye off your enemey who knwo when he attack from rear. so be prepard for countring any action taken against you.& never trust your enemy he could be shacking one hand & but could be holding a knife ont he other hand, this is hte lesson that average Pakistani have learned from previous wars.

My god, the ONE thing i find common in almost all Pakistani's or Muslims there is that they blame the entire world but themselves for their failures.

The one thing I found common about all the Indians in any forum i went through that they never accept their defeat what ever reason should be given to them they will do their to prove that they are the best & no one can defeat them they can walk on the seas & there Aircrafts cannot be hit. So it is Impossible to defeat them.

Heck the article states that India initiated the '65 war !!!

Any doubt about that ??

Only in Pakistan....! Honestly!

Yes you are right honesty is only in Pakistan.

Regards
Wilco

 

[Shivakumar]

I dont know about India but for Pakistan yes there is many thing to like never take your eye off your enemey who knwo when he attack from rear. so be prepard for countring any action taken against you.& never trust your enemy he could be shacking one hand & but could be holding a knife ont he other hand, this is hte lesson that average Pakistani have learned from previous wars.

See, who say this?

You started Kargil, when India is extending friendship. The world knows who holds the knife.

Any doubt about that ??

Who started 1965 war? Go and read some history books (not Pakistani history books).

 

[F.O.X]

See, who say this?

You started Kargil, when India is extending friendship. The world knows who holds the knife.

When ever you talk about Kargil never forget about siachin too what was that ??

Who started 1965 war? Go and read some history books (not Pakistani history books).

Same is my advice to you .

Regards
Wilco

 

[bhangra12345]

Bangladesh=India=USA, whatever you say equation remains same.

Just in case you forgot, India was more friendlier with USSR than with USA and it was the cold war time. Oh! ya, it was also the time when US president Nixon, called Indira, Indian PM a witch. and you say India and USA were collaborating!!!!!

We signed a treaty of friendship with USSR in around may 1971, so that we could get off the 'THREAT' of USA off our back. Even then USA sent its Enterprise to save the then west Pakistan.

You are not talking about today but 35 years ago, when the ground facts were completely different. You might just want to replace your equation with something like this

Pakistan=USA=china against bangladesh(then east pakistan)=india=ussr. This equation protrays the then situation much better.

Regarding the bolded part and its logic, it is you who is the best judge in this matter.

 

[blain2]

I would address you directly only if you did not go tangentially ballistic and take the thread off its hinges!

It is difficult to debate with one who would call the Moon the Sun! I would even accept it so, had the facts to prove so was given! Emotion and bland statements do not lead to knowledge. All smoke and no fire!

I was avoiding problems that I could do well without.

You missed out this:



I don't shy away from the truth!

I don't shy away from the truth either. The problem is how you perceive the truth....don't expect people to take everything you say on its face value. In all honesty from my standpoint (and that of many other Pakistani members), there is a lot of problematic and opinionated material in your posts.

Also don't worry about avoiding problems. If you really wanted to do that then put a check on that sarcastic and overbearing tone of yours, we could all do well without it in all honesty. You talk about being here to learn and share, but I can paste quite a few (rather a majority) of your posts that are nothing but filled with sarcastic arrogance and snide remarks. Don't expect to get much love or respect if you carry on like this.

My sole interest here is topics related to Pakistan and I try to stick with it (you won't see me on too many India specific threads for the same reason)....however if you expect to get on these forums and try to get away with this self-righteous stuff then you are bound to see a response. Don't try to impress people with statements like "I don't shy away from the truth!" to imply your straight forwardness. Leave that for others to decide. Also had your statement been true, then you would have been more receptive to what others have to say instead of branding them.

 

[Contrarian]

What is wrong with you people?? For some reason you guys really think that you are something special because you get to belittle something that some 12 year old Pakistani has posted or some opinionated military historian has put up....there are Pakistanis (both on the civilian and military side) who would put your "almost" stupid generalizations to shame....I only have to pick up a few of Indian newspapers and can line up a list of totally one-sided, idiotic and out of this world articles put up by supposedly sane Indians and here you are, along with others going off with your usual "****-on-Pakistan" rant. Sometimes its good to give it a rest.....if I start countering stuff here then all you would see is post after post of idiotic Indian perceptions (mostly way off) about all things related to Pakistan and Pakistanis.

I would love to respond to the 50 page article that Salim has posted (I wish you could break the articles in separate posts) but I really do not have the time to respond at this time (and there may not be a whole lot to respond to as all that is said is already in the past). What is kind of odd is that the criticism that you post here is not literary...sorry to say its outright childish and stupid (this is for you Malay btw).

Im sorry mate, but do you deny that what i mentioned, the tendency to blame every one else is present in Pakistan? Have we not discussed this issue many times? This article was precicely the same. It was posted by webby with a title that implied it was meant to be taken seriously. If the article was crap and you agree with me that its crap(atleast i think so !) then why even bother posting it?

I apologise for generalizing though, but reading that article made my IQ points come down a bit most definitely.

 

[Contrarian]

You miss operation Gibralter in text books (I would assume just like you miss the 1962 war with China in your text books), but not in the military history books.

Mate, the 62 war is NOT missed in Indian books. It is counted as a defeat, as a pure and proper defeat of India for the first and only time in war. It is counted exactly as it was, the reasons analysed and blame put on India itself, not any second country. It was the slap that made India realize that our Armed Forces are a necessity, for Nehru was all about to disband the IA and turn the ordinance factories to make toasters.

 

[blain2]

Ok point taken. My point simply was that in Pakistani text books, you only find stories of our heroes in the 1965 war. There is no talk of the entire war, or even the other wars simply because there is not a whole lot taught in these settings. However if you take up Pakistani books about the war/s, which is typically what you should be looking at to do a literary review, then you will find quite a lot of introspection and analysis.

The text books are very similar to what you may find in India to be very honest....light on facts.

take a look at a post by an Indian on the topic of what we are fed respectively in our schools:

#
Satya says:
September 7th, 2007 3:18 am

Athar,

Great Post. As a kid, I remember this refrain that I assume we were told the Pakistani army employed during the war, breakfast in Amritsar, lunch in Delhi and dinner in Lucknow.

I also like the way you examined the subsequent Pakistan history if the truth about the 1965 war had been known.

However, we in India, have our own version of indoctrination. You guys are luckier (you could blame it on the lack of democracy) because we being democratic, we dont think some ‘rulers’ sat their and tutored our fertile minds and therefore that propensity for reflection is a lot lesser.

He responded to a blog by a Pakistani who questioned what we have been taught in schools as being problematic, however I believe this is the case across both countries (and even in BD).

Here is the link to the blog:
1965 War: A Different Legacy : ALL THINGS PAKISTAN

There are issues and inaccuracies on both sides. I spoke to my father and a few other officers commissioned in the 50s and early 60s about this oft-quoted claim that Pakistanis were told that each one of them was equal to 10 Indians, and I was told that never in an Army school or in any training setting, this point was ever entertained. The only thing emphasized in the Pakistan Army and Airforce schools is that in order to match the quantitative superiority of the Indian Army/Airforce, quality of training and manpower must be improved. My father was an instructor in the Special Forces and in other regimental schools (served for almost 30 years through both 65 and 71 wars) but at least he never saw or heard this 1 vs 5/10 thing ever mentioned.

This little slogan is one of those things that have been making the rounds for the last 4 decades or so and happens to be little more than what would now classify as an "urban legend" (what I mean by this is that it has never been attributed to Pakistani military doctrine, training establishments or schools). Even folks like Cowasji, when they quote this, they themseleves do not know where this little statement came from.

 

[Contrarian]

But that was my point mate, 62 is mentioned in our books, our territory was taken, we lost. All is made clear in black and white, no grays. Either way, i agree to what you say as well.

Incidentally i heard this too, the statement that PA used: breakfast in Amritsar, lunch in Delhi and dinner in Lucknow It was used in the movie 'Border' as well. It was super duper duper hit in India. Maybe you have seen it?

 

[blain2]

But that was my point mate, 62 is mentioned in our books, our territory was taken, we lost. All is made clear in black and white, no grays. Either way, i agree to what you say as well.

Incidentally i heard this too, the statement that PA used: breakfast in Amritsar, lunch in Delhi and dinner in Lucknow It was used in the movie 'Border' as well. It was super duper duper hit in India. Maybe you have seen it?

No I have not seen in. But my point about the books has been missed by you. There is a difference in what is seen in school text books and what is in the literary works in Pakistan. The biggest defeat in Pakistan's history (1971) has been treated with exhaustively detailed writings (Brig Siddique Salik's "Witness to Surrender" is probably a very good book for you to read). Its easily available at the link I provided to you via PM.

There are very many books that address Pakistan's failures. The Maj Gen Shaukat Riza book that I have mentioned to you (Pakistan Army - War 1965) is one of the most factual and unflattering books...the guy is almost miserly with his appreciation for even the folks who were decorated with NH (Pakistan's highest gallantry award)...so lets not assume that there has not been any dispassionate assesment of Pakistan's past wars. Plenty has been written, there is bravado in there too, but for those looking to study the war factually, there is way too much available....I can provide a listing of books on both 65 and 71 wars that I think do a credible job of critically and factually looking at the wars.

 

[Venkat]

There are dozens of books written by Pakistani Officers Post 71 so I dont think anyone can fault them for that. Most are introspective in nature and do not succumb to the temptation of playing for the home gallery.

Siddiq Salik wrote another book (in urdu) on his POW experiences. But as it was very shortly after the event (74 or 75) the book is full of bile and and a distorted perception. The Witness to surrender book is actually better.