Lca delivery way behind schedule!!

[PARIKRAMA]

Dont take it to the heart but if we cannot sort out the issues at ADA, DRDO and HAL - the troika together then we should kiss goodbye to our capabilities to be produced under "indigenous" tag.
Its high time that the people in troika pulls up their pants, rolls up their sleeves and start doing what the nation and its people expect them to do in a professional manner.
Or else,
i certainly believe this government may kick some azzes and start awarding contracts to other light craft manufacturers like Saab for gripen and the new entrant Scorpion light fighter both under make in India scheme.


BTW
"US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter is expected to arrive in India late on June 2 on a visit aimed at inking an amendment to the 2005 India-US Defence Framework Agreement to allow co-development and co-production of military hardware and platforms.The amendment will breathe new life into the bilateral Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) with a proposal to make Scorpion light attack aircraft in India as well as to use it as an intermediate jet trainer (IJT) for the Indian Air Force (IAF). A known defence expert, it was Carter as Deputy Secretary (Defence) under Chuck Hagel who had initiated the DTTI government-to-government (G2G) programme with India."

So this scorpion proposition takes care of IJT as well as light fighter requirement.

Logically, i believe all these news and soundbytes are precusor to the troika that either you deliver or we start something/ a new fighter project and you can kiss your azz goodbye for failing to deliver on tax payers money.

A further order of 40 LCA MK1s will be a good gesture indeed!

Wan't there any modification changes from IAF?

Why more orders when existing orders only they are not able to do anything on time. We cannot forever keep on moving goal posts be it pof IAF or bcz of delays at DRDO/ADA/HAL.

If they cant deliver things then better not award them new jet contratcs as they failed to adhere to delivery schedules multiple times.

 

[ZooZoo]

Is it a news???

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Is it a news???

We are doing here "Chai pe Charcha"

 

[axisofevil]

India should follow China when it comes to increasing production capabilities. Though the article states its a DRDO problem, but some folks are a naive to think HAL is performing at its optimal best. Remember, HAL shocked Western counterparts who came to inspect facilties for MMRCA by the 1950's outdated production tech they still use!

 

[sancho]

A further order of 40 LCA MK1s will be a good gesture indeed!

Wan't there any modification changes from IAF?

A pointless gesture, if MK2 really can be developed according to the time lines DRDO has stated. Why should IAF buy something around 2019/20 that is technically not state of the art anymore?
Normal upgrades of avionics mainly, which is logical if you take the delays to account, the rest is fixing remaining issues (compare the brochures of MK1 and IAF MK2 from AI2015.
The main changes of engine thrust, internal fuel capacity and as we now can see of the overall airframe changes are based on IN / N-LCA requirements. Without N-LCA, the MK2 could had been developed and inducted faster, with less changes compared to the MK1.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

India should follow China when it comes to increasing production capabilities. Though the article states its a DRDO, buts some folks are anieve to think HAL is performing at its optimal best. Remember, HAL is shocked Western counterparts by the 1950's outdated production tech they still use!

Very true, the production numbers at HAL are puny numbers (4/6/8). We need to start at 16/18 and ramp up to 24/30/36 types when the requirement is over 200+ jets. If they say they will deliver 200 jets in 15-20 years then we are lagging too far behind in terms of productivity

I also believe the necessary cash infusion needed to upgrade HAL capabilities should also be done at war footing.

i can quote an example here. If France wants 400 jets a year then its government will invest for the required capability at the manufacturer's place. So does advance nations in aircraft manufacturing bases like USA or even in China. So for that high production rate, whatever is needed GOI should sanction that and not restrict HAL capabilities.

If HAL fails to deliver repeatedly, then start the sacking as is under any professional entity for failing to meet (repeatedly) the project deliverable.

 

[rockstarIN]

US Defence Secretary Ashton Carter is expected to arrive in India late on June 2 on a visit aimed at inking an amendment to the 2005 India-US Defence Framework Agreement to allow co-development and co-production of military hardware and platforms.The amendment will breathe new life into the bilateral Defence Trade and Technology Initiative (DTTI) with a proposal to make Scorpion light attack aircraft in India as well as to use it as an intermediate jet trainer (IJT) for the Indian Air Force (IAF). A known defence expert, it was Carter as Deputy Secretary (Defence) under Chuck Hagel who had initiated the DTTI government-to-government (G2G) programme with India."

Why do we need a IJT since most air forces are doing the same course in AJT..!

A pointless gesture, if MK2 really can be developed according to the time lines DRDO has stated. Why should IAF buy something around 2019/20 that is technically not state of the art anymore?
Normal upgrades of avionics mainly, which is logical if you take the delays to account, the rest is fixing remaining issues (compare the brochures of MK1 and IAF MK2 from AI2015.
The main changes of engine thrust, internal fuel capacity and as we now can see of the overall airframe changes are based on IN / N-LCA requirements. Without N-LCA, the MK2 could had been developed and inducted faster, with less changes compared to the MK1.

If we going to purchase more MMRCAs urgently or Gripen to fill the gap, I would suggest mote LCA Mk-1s.

After all MK1 is still a potent one compared to M2K earlier batches with more technological capabilities. There will be a gap of minimum 5 years in between MK1 and MK2.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Why do we need a IJT since most air forces are doing the same course in AJT..!

The IAF trains its fighter pilots in three phases. Currently, Stage-1 of the training is on the propeller-driven Pilatus PC-7 Mark II. Pilots then graduate to Stage-2 on the jet aircraft. This is currently done on the vintage Kiran Mark I as the IJT, which was supposed to replace the Kiran long ago, IJT Sitara has not been delivered. Finally, Stage-3 is on the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT), which was acquired in the mid-2000s.
So unless the plan is directly from Stage 1 to 3 Which i believe is quite a leap as number of flying hours and capability is vastly superior at Stage 3 vs Stage 1, Stage 2 thus plays a very imp role as intediciary role for hand holding.

We also have too many types of birds so its imp we train our pilots properly as not every bird is as modern as say Su30 MKI or Rafales.. (Mig 21s for example)

 

[rockstarIN]

The IAF trains its fighter pilots in three phases. Currently, Stage-1 of the training is on the propeller-driven Pilatus PC-7 Mark II. Pilots then graduate to Stage-2 on the jet aircraft. This is currently done on the vintage Kiran Mark I as the IJT, which was supposed to replace the Kiran long ago, IJT Sitara has not been delivered. Finally, Stage-3 is on the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT), which was acquired in the mid-2000s.
So unless the plan is directly from Stage 1 to 3 Which i believe is quite a leap as number of flying hours and capability is vastly superior at Stage 3 vs Stage 1, Stage 2 thus plays a very imp role as intediciary role for hand holding.

Most other air forces does not use IJTs for training. They cover it in AJTs itself.

The IAF trains its fighter pilots in three phases. Currently, Stage-1 of the training is on the propeller-driven Pilatus PC-7 Mark II. Pilots then graduate to Stage-2 on the jet aircraft. This is currently done on the vintage Kiran Mark I as the IJT, which was supposed to replace the Kiran long ago, IJT Sitara has not been delivered. Finally, Stage-3 is on the Hawk Advanced Jet Trainer (AJT), which was acquired in the mid-2000s.
So unless the plan is directly from Stage 1 to 3 Which i believe is quite a leap as number of flying hours and capability is vastly superior at Stage 3 vs Stage 1, Stage 2 thus plays a very imp role as intediciary role for hand holding.

We also have too many types of birds so its imp we train our pilots properly as not every bird is as modern as say Su30 MKI or Rafales.. (Mig 21s for example)

Mig -21 is an old story for new pilots, they will not fly that machine starting from last training batch as confirmed by DM.

 

[帅的一匹]

It's too slow, Try to make it faster.

 

[Yeti]

The production side (HAL) is not the problem at the moment, but the development side (DRDO & ADA) is! HAL can't produce more fighters until the development is over and by failing to reach FOC, DRDO and ADA are responsible for the recent and the overall delays of the LCA project!

DRDO / ADA = developer - responsible for all development related delays
HAL = manufacturer - responsible for all production delays (which are yet to come, since the production just started)
IAF / IN = customer - responsible for delays related to requirement changes (basically anything that IN demanded for the MK2)

Seems like a lack of coordination between the entities, project management skills need to be improved. Where does the buck stop? the problems relate to a change in requirements from the IAF as well as developing those changes but the whole idea was to replace the mig 21 and I am sure the mk1 version is suited for that role (although many disagree)

How can we progress from mk1 to mk2 to AMCA without having these issues? we can only learn by the mistakes to ensure the mk2 version is up to mark and the skills gathered can be utilised for the AMCA project.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

Most other air forces does not use IJTs for training. They cover it in AJTs itself.

Mig -21 is an old story for new pilots, they will not fly that machine starting from last training batch as confirmed by DM.

What you said is true and that is why perhaps now it may be that the flying time like at present is extended in Stage 1 and Stage 3. Perhaps thats what IAF is planning to do in future a combo of pilatus and hawks only

 

[Yeti]

I do not understand how we can work on the MK2 version without first making sure the MK1 issues have been resolved and production is in place, let's first get that right before we can incorporate the changes needed on the MK2 version.

 

[PARIKRAMA]

I do not understand how we can work on the MK2 version without first making sure the MK1 issues have been resolved and production is in place, let's first get that right before we can incorporate the changes needed on the MK2 version.

Very true brother.. But what do you suggest for the never ending terrible project mgmt skills and delays. Surely the hardwork under LCA program would be beneficial but what can we do in the meantime as do need to retire old birds and intake new ones.. We cant buy everything foreign and we dont have a domestic replacement, its not a easy state of affairs to be into. Espcially as the bottom tier or point defense role bird numbers (requirement) is over 200

What you said is true and that is why perhaps now it may be that the flying time like at present is extended in Stage 1 and Stage 3. Perhaps thats what IAF is planning to do in future a combo of pilatus and hawks only

Quoting here the words of Sir @Abingdonboy (ye ye we know you are young)

Someone from HAL and or the IAF needs to explain to me why there is even a need for a IJT as the stage 2 trainer now. With the PC-7 BTT and Hawk Mk.132 AJT in service the need for the IJT seems redundant. It appears as though the demand is simply because of outdated mindsets now.

 

[sancho]

If we going to purchase more MMRCAs urgently or Gripen to fill the gap, I would suggest mote LCA Mk-1s.

If you want to fill a gap, you buy a fighter that is fast to get and to induct. Neither MMRCAs nor LCA MK1 fulfill the latter, since they are new fighters, which IAF needs to gain operational experience first, before they can properly use it. So the only gap filler today are MKIs, Mirage 2000-5s or Mig 29SMTs and only the first one offers enough potential to remain in service for long.
And when it comes to MMRCAs or LCA MK1, the choice is simple too, MMRCA all the way! Do you want a proper 4.5th gen fighter with advanced capabilities and performance in war, or a low end fighter which still needs to mature to offer the "reasonably good" performance it could offer in FOC standard?
We have to get rid of the pride factor when judging the need and importance of LCA. It's hugely important to finish the project and even moreso to focus on improving it, but it's not the best fighter in the fleet and just because it's Indian, doesn't mean it can secure the nation. So we need it, but in the right terms and conditions!