Last Stand of the 300 (Battle of Thermopylae 480BC)

[flamer84]

Soviet soldiers in Stalingrad stood as well as 300 Spartans. To death. Died, called for artillery fire on themselvez - but did not give up! Even burning alive - continued to fight!

Why do you always have to derail these kind of threads with non related soviet/russian stories ? I've checked and you didn't even bother to thank @jhungary and @AUSTERLITZ for their time comsuming work instead you jump in with some russian non related nonsense.Have you no shame ?

Spare your own time and creeate a thread about Stalingrad/whatever russian battle you want and stop polluting others !

 

[Levina]

Leonidas knows the Phorcians cannot hold the pass above the Thermopylae; many argued the situation would have been different if the entire Greek troop either retreated or stayed and fight,. As Athenians is evacuating Athens anyway, either you stand your ground and buy more time, or you get the hell out and leave with the Evacuation and life and fight another day. Now, obviously the Greek can't all be gone, otherwise the Persian would have caught the Greek with their pants down had the entire Greek troop and leave the paths open.

If they all stayed, then they would all be killed. First of all it would have been a morale blow to the Greece and that man power (3000-4000) would be essential to guard the channel across Salamis and that is what deterred the Persian to cross, by the time they do, they had suffered a defeat from the superior and more organized Greek Army and Navy. So, by sacrificing themselves, the Spartan making good sure (Or at least put the Greek on a better footing) the Greece have a better chance. Doing either way would have been disastrous for Greek.

Continuing our discussion from the previous thread (Unlikely military victories from around the world ) .....
The most incredible thing was that despite being massively out numbered the Greek position was impregnable. This so because Greeks were known to form a dense phalanx formation of hoplites. Hoplites were a disciplined bunch, they had the benefit of being a professionally trained army. At close quarters their longer spears, heavier swords, better armour, and rigid discipline worked in their advantage, Persians had to struggle to make their way through the narrow pass. If Greeks could cling on to their position for slightly longer then the Persians would have had to give up due to lack of food and water.
It is said that the Persian king Xerxes offered Greeks a last chance to surrender without bloodshed if the Greeks laid down their arms. But the Greek king Leonidas’ bullish response to Xerxes was "come and get them".
When Leonidas was killed, his army fought a fierce battle to recover the body of the fallen king.
After the battle Xerxes ordered that Leonida's head be put on display at the battlefield. Unfortunate!
The war was more like the free soldiers versus the slaves, the Greek soldiers got a mythical status after the war. Btw this is the phalanx formation...

 

[jhungary]

Continuing our discussion from the previous thread (Unlikely military victories from around the world ) .....
The most incredible thing was that despite being massively out numbered the Greek position was impregnable. This so because Greeks were known to form a dense phalanx formation of hoplites. Hoplites were a disciplined bunch, they had the benefit of being a professionally trained army. At close quarters their longer spears, heavier swords, better armour, and rigid discipline worked in their advantage, Persians had to struggle to make their way through the narrow pass. If Greeks could cling on to their position for slightly longer then the Persians would have had to give up due to lack of food and water.
It is said that the Persian king Xerxes offered Greeks a last chance to surrender without bloodshed if the Greeks laid down their arms. But the Greek king Leonidas’ bullish response to Xerxes was "come and get them".
When Leonidas was killed, his army fought a fierce battle to recover the body of the fallen king.
After the battle Xerxes ordered that Leonida's head be put on display at the battlefield. Unfortunate!
The war was more like the free soldiers versus the slaves, the Greek soldiers got a mythical status after the war. Btw this is the phalanx formation...

I can only say, there are not much the greek can do in this battle. They took the best case scenario in the worse situation possible,

Had the Spartan threw down their arms, then it would spell the doom of Athens. And that's the reason this epic battle had fought in the first place.

They know how their troop works, they pick the best terrain for their formation, and they lost. Well, it's tragic, but it's quite simple and straight forward....

 

[Levina]

I can only say, there are not much the greek can do in this battle. They took the best case scenario in the worse situation possible,

There were a few things which could have changed the course of this war
1) Had the city-states of Greece had not made the blunder of pulling back an army of 10000 from the pass, merely because they thought they had lesser number of soldiers.
2)Had festival of the Karneia not delayed whole spartan army from marching to the pass.
3) Had a greek named Ephialtes not informed Xerxes that he can outflank the Greeks by using the mountain path that cuts around the pass.
This was the route shown by him....

 

[jhungary]

There were a few things which could have changed the course of this war
1) Had the city-states of Greece had not made the blunder of pulling back an army of 10000 from the pass, merely because they thought they had lesser number of soldiers.
2)Had festival of the Karneia not delayed whole spartan army from marching to the pass.
3) Had a greek named Ephialtes not informed Xerxes that he can outflank the Greeks by using the mountain path that cuts around the pass.
This was the route shown by him....
View attachment 269763

lol, A lot could have been happened.

1.) It would not do much. You need to understand the pass is narrow and cannot be guarded by that many men anyway, 10,000 troop would make 4 fold of the pass and where you would still have the first 1500-2000 troop doing the fighting.
And they are facing a force anywhere between 150,000 to 250,000 strong.

Plus if they did not pull the soldier back, they would have lost it all in the first battle and then there will be nothing between them and the incoming Persian

2.) Would not do much, Spartan soldier in full would be a welcoming site had the Greek fight a set piece with the Persian. On the pass, it did not work that much. However, had the Spartan available for combat, will they won a set piece with the Persian is another issue, which in my humble opinion, that is something we will never know.

3.) Even if Ephialtes had not betray the Greek, the Persian would have found the pass regardless, they had enough people to divert and try to find another way to go around the defence. They would have eventually found the pass, just how many Persian have to die before they find it.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

You have to think thru Xerxes mind---you have to look thru his eyes----the eyes of an Emperor. He has a 1 /2 million army at his disposal---and in front a puny little force---.

So---he is not thinking in a regular terms---he just wants to smash thru and as that is not happening---in a casual manner he keeps sending more men knowing very well that they would die ---.

He cannot be seen sweating about the issue. He wants it to get over----and he does what a commander of a 1 / 2 million force does---and no different.

He is an emperor---and he cannot be seen either being concerned about it or showing any weakness.

 

[Levina]

2.) Would not do much, Spartan soldier in full would be a welcoming site had the Greek fight a set piece with the Persian. On the pass, it did not work that much. However, had the Spartan available for combat, will they won a set piece with the Persian is another issue, which in my humble opinion, that is something we will never know.

Gary,
I think Greeks had an underdog victory in Thermopylae.
I agree that Xerxes army was huge and in terms of numbers he would have won the war any day, but the fact is that he had a Pyrrhic victory; Greeks had inflicted huge loss on Persians.

3.) Even if Ephialtes had not betray the Greek, the Persian would have found the pass regardless, they had enough people to divert and try to find another way to go around the defence. They would have eventually found the pass, just how many Persian have to die before they find it.

The very fact that despite their poor numbers Greeks could create a terror in Xerxes army proves that if Greeks could hold on to the pass for a little while longer then it would have turned tables.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Continuing our discussion from the previous thread (Unlikely military victories from around the world ) .....
The most incredible thing was that despite being massively out numbered the Greek position was impregnable. This so because Greeks were known to form a dense phalanx formation of hoplites. Hoplites were a disciplined bunch, they had the benefit of being a professionally trained army. At close quarters their longer spears, heavier swords, better armour, and rigid discipline worked in their advantage, Persians had to struggle to make their way through the narrow pass. If Greeks could cling on to their position for slightly longer then the Persians would have had to give up due to lack of food and water.
It is said that the Persian king Xerxes offered Greeks a last chance to surrender without bloodshed if the Greeks laid down their arms. But the Greek king Leonidas’ bullish response to Xerxes was "come and get them".
When Leonidas was killed, his army fought a fierce battle to recover the body of the fallen king.
After the battle Xerxes ordered that Leonida's head be put on display at the battlefield. Unfortunate!
The war was more like the free soldiers versus the slaves, the Greek soldiers got a mythical status after the war. Btw this is the phalanx formation...

This is later macedonian phalanx,not greek hoplite phalanx.

 

[Levina]

This is later macedonian phalanx,not greek hoplite phalanx.

oopsie!
that's what i got when i google-ed hoplite phalanx.
Could you help me?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

oopsie!
that's what i got when i google-ed hoplite phalanx.
Could you help me?

8 man deep ranks usual.Armed with large oval shield(Hoplon) and spear.Wears heavy armour for close combat.Uses spear with 1 arm and shield with other.
Used by classic greek armies -athens,sparta.

Double depth -16 man deep.(Rear 8 ranks can move and take place on any flanks making formation 8 ranks deep if additional width needed).Small shield slung from shoulder,light armour.Uses 18 foot Pike weilded by both hands.Tremendous reach.
Used by armies of philip,alexander and their succesors.

 

[Levina]

8 man deep ranks usual.Armed with large oval shield(Hoplon) and spear.Wears heavy armour for close combat.Uses spear with 1 arm and shield with other.
Used by classic greek armies -athens,sparta.

Double depth -16 man deep.(Rear 8 ranks can move and take place on any flanks making formation 8 ranks deep if additional width needed).Small shield slung from shoulder,light armour.Uses 18 foot Pike weilded by both hands.Tremendous reach.
Used by armies of philip,alexander and their succesors.

Thank you.
I assumed that the long spears and the small shields held by the soldiers in my pic were Greek hoplites.
I knew that phalanx formation gave the advantage of greater mobility without the interlocking shields, and that it could out maneuver an opposing force more easily.

Used by armies of philip,alexander and their succesors.

True. I had read that phalanx formation reached its height of effectiveness in the conquests of Alexander the Great who was able to move large bodies of men quickly and whose brilliant strategies on the field made skillful use of the formation. Was he the one who introduced oblique infantry deployment ?

Btw i really think that you or @jhungary should start a thread where such ancient war tactics are discussed, or we could have a sticky thread but for that we will need a mod- @Slav Defence fyi

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Thank you.
I assumed that the long spears and the small shields held by the soldiers in my pic were Greek hoplites.
I knew that phalanx formation gave the advantage of greater mobility without the interlocking shields, and that it could out maneuver an opposing force more easily.

True. I had read that phalanx formation reached its height of effectiveness in the conquests of Alexander the Great who was able to move large bodies of men quickly and whose brilliant strategies on the field made skillful use of the formation. Was he the one who introduced oblique infantry deployment ?

Btw i really think that you or @jhungary should start a thread where such ancient war tactics are discussed, or we could have a sticky thread but for that we will need a mod- @Slav Defence fyi

Me and jhungary did several battle report threads from various eras.
Battle and Combat History Series
Jhungary is actual former veteran so has experience on field and also wrote some great contemporary warfare threads like this.Jhungary Guide to COIN
You willhave to find others from here -
https://defence.pk/search/2363867/

Mine are here - i have written 17.
Great Battles and Campaigns of history - Battle reports Index.
(All links there 14 in first post,3 later due to no edit of old posts.Earlier battles are rudimentary and few pictures are broken,from number 8 more detailed and no broken picture links.)Number 2 ,4,6 and 13 concern greek and macedonian warfare.7 and 8 roman.13 is more detailed -good for macedonian tactics.

 

[Levina]

Me and jhungary did several battle report threads from various eras.
Battle and Combat History Series
Jhungary is actual former veteran so has experience on field and also wrote some great contemporary warfare threads like this.Jhungary Guide to COIN
You willhave to find others from here -
https://defence.pk/search/2363867/

Mine are here - i have written 17.
Great Battles and Campaigns of history - Battle reports Index.
(All links there 14 in first post,3 later due to no edit of old posts.Earlier battles are rudimentary and few pictures are broken,from number 8 more detailed and no broken picture links.)Number 2 ,4,6 and 13 concern greek and macedonian warfare.7 and 8 roman.13 is more detailed -good for macedonian tactics.

Errr
I have read many of your articles, both yours and @jhungary 's. Infact i comment regularly on your threads.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Errr
I have read many of your articles, both yours and @jhungary 's. Infact i comment regularly on your threads.

Are you levina or who?Changed your name?

 

[Levina]

Are you levina or who?Changed your name?

hahaha
i am luving this.
This is my way of pulling a prank on my friends.