Kulbhushan Jadhav's wife, mother reach Islamabad for meeting with Indian spy

[YogaMudra]

Just my personal opinion and I know it doesn't count for shit, but I think they should release him.


Article 36 of the VCCR only deals with communication and contact with nationals of the sending state it does not impact convictions for espionage under domestic or international law at all.

Further, Pakistan is a dualist state, wherein any international treaty signed can only be given effect domestically once it has been codified in the corpus of domestic laws through implementing legislation. Consular access has not been a right explicitly guaranteed under the Diplomatic and Consular Privileges Act, 1972.

Furthermore regarding Geneva Convention IV:

Article 5 of the 1949 Geneva Convention IV provides: “Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy … such … [person] shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention.”

While such a person must, as per Article 5, be treated with humanity and has the right to a fair trial, there is nothing under IHL which prevents an individual from being sentenced to death for espionage.

IHL also draws a clear distinction between those engaged in hostilities and those engaged in espionage. This principle is enshrined in Additional Protocol I (AP I) to the Geneva Conventions, reflecting a long-established principle of international law present in earlier international legal instruments.

Combatants who adhere to IHL principles are, if captured, immune from prosecution for acts committed while engaging in hostilities.

This, however, does not apply to those engaged in espionage: as per Article 46(1) of AP I any member of the armed forces of a party to the conflict who falls into the power of the other party while engaging in espionage shall not have the right to the status of prisoner of war and may be treated as a spy.

Instead, the requirements under Article 75 of AP I are for humane treatment and a fair trial. In this light, therefore, Pakistan is well within its rights to try and sentence Jadhav under its domestic laws for committing espionage.

While Jadhav’s activities were hostile acts, inimical to Pakistan’s national security and stability, even if one were to assume that the peacetime regime of international law applied, India’s claims before the ICJ would remain problematic. India’s declaration to the compulsory jurisdiction of the ICJ under Article 36(2) of the ICJ statute ousts the jurisdiction of the court on matters relating to actions taken in self-defence or in resistance to aggression.

Precedent: Medellin v. Texas

Pakistani Constitution - Third Amendment:

1. Short title and commencement
(1) This act may be called the Constitution (Third Amendment) Act, 1975.

(2) It shall come into force at once.

2. Amendment of Article 10 of the Constitution.
In the Constitution of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan hereinafter referred to as the Constitution, in Article 10-
(a) in clause (4), for the words "one month" twice occurring the words "three months" shall be substituted;
(b) in clause (5), for the words and comma "as soon as may be, but not latter than one week" the words "within fifteen days" shall be substituted; and
(c) in clause (7), in the proviso, after the word "enemy" the commas and words ", or who is acting or attempting to act in a manner prejudicial to the integrity, security of defense of Pakistan or any part thereof or who commits or attempt to commit any act which amounts to an anti-national activity as defined in a Federal Law or is a member of any association which has for its object, or which indulges him, any such anti-national activity" shall be substituted;

3. Amendment of Article 232 of the Constitution.
In the Constitution, in Article 232, in clause (7), for paragraph (b) the following new clause shall be substituted, namely--
"(b) shall, subject to the provisions of paragraph (a) cease to be in force upon a resolution disapproving the proclamation being passed by the votes of the majority of the total membership of the two Houses in joint sitting."

Personally and this is just my opinion and doesn't matter for shit, but I do hope he is spared!

1. Jadhav is a civilian. A business man.

2. There is no evidence of him being a spy, and even if he was, since he was a civilian, he has right to consular access.

3. Vienna convention supersedes domestic laws if there is a clash. Especially since you are a SIGNATORY to the Vienna convention.

4. Right to fair trial involves giving him access to consular reps. as per the existing laws and practices. Denial of such rights, automatically proves he did not get a fair trial.

This is what the ICJ is also going to rule and pakistan knows this.

 

[RescueRanger]

1. Jadhav is a civilian. A business man.

2. There is no evidence of him being a spy, and even if he was, since he was a civilian, he has right to consular access.

3. Vienna convention supersedes domestic laws if there is a clash. Especially since you are a SIGNATORY to the Vienna convention.

4. Right to fair trial involves giving him access to consular reps. as per the existing laws and practices. Denial of such rights, automatically proves he did not get a fair trial.

This is what the ICJ is also going to rule and pakistan knows this.

Please read my replies where I have stated precedent of Medellin v. Texas.

He has been DENIED consular reps.

Mother and wife is a SUBSTITUTE. An attempt at emotional blackmail by pakistan. Shame on you.

One would rather than a consular access than such drama.

In Medellin v. Texas the accused was a Mexican national tried and sentenced to death by the courts of Texas, despite Mexico being denied consular access to him. Following his appeal, the US Supreme Court — upholding Medellin’s sentence — held that even if a treaty constitutes an international obligation it is not binding under domestic law unless the treaty is self-executing or the legislature enacts the necessary implementing legislation.


ICJ cannot impede national law which is sovereign!

 

[RescueRanger]

RUBBISH.

Its not enough that you label somebody a spy. You have to PROVE it in an open court and subject him to FAIR trial.

He has neither been given a Fair trial nor has his status been prove in an Open Court.

LOL at your pathetic attempts which deny common sense and logic. Such rubbish is only sufficient to satisfy your illiterate masses.



Do you understand the difference between OPEN COURT of Texas and a MILITARY Trial ?

Was Jadhav proven to be a spy in an OPEN court ? If not, then he is NOT a spy. He is an innocent civilian who has been denied his rights in pakistan.


Also US is in open defiance to the Vienna convention. US themselves admit it.

Just typing rubbish proves nothing, You cannot deny legal precedent! Please use any authoritative source to counter what I have put forward. But you cannot because there is nothing available that supersedes domestic law!

 

[Reichsmarschall]

 

[Spy Master]

What more can you expect from brainwashed Indians..logic and sense is rare there, so save your time instead of wasting on him!

Just typing rubbish proves nothing, You cannot deny legal precedent! Please use any authoritative source to counter what I have put forward. But you cannot because there is nothing available that supersedes domestic law!

 

[third eye]

Why should there be a glass partition ?

They may as well have had a skype meeting

 

[YogaMudra]

Just typing rubbish proves nothing, You cannot deny legal precedent! Please use any authoritative source to counter what I have put forward. But you cannot because there is nothing available that supersedes domestic law!

http://thestudentlawyer.com/2012/05...etween-domestic-and-international-law-part-1/

monism asserts the supremacy of international law within the municipal sphere and describes the individual as a subject of international law. The doctrine is established when international and municipal law form a part of the same system of norms which are based on general notions of fairness. The latter concept somewhat translates into an alternative theory which entails that international and municipal law are superseded by a general legal order which rests upon the rules of natural law.


https://www.law.berkeley.edu/library/dynamic/guide.php?id=65

Under United States law, however, there is a distinction made between the terms treaty and executive agreement. "In the United States, the word treaty is reserved for an agreement that is made 'by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate' (Article II, section 2, clause 2 of the Constitution). International agreements not submitted to the Senate are known as 'executive agreements' in the United States." [3] Generally, a treaty is a binding international agreement and an executive agreement applies in domestic law only. Under international law, however, both types of agreements are considered binding. Regardless of whether an international agreement is called a convention, agreement, protocol, accord, etc.; if it is submitted to the Senate for advice and consent, it is considered a treaty under United States law.

Why should there be a glass partition ?

They may as well have had a skype meeting

They have been watching too many hollywood movies.

.... more pakistani drama.

 

[Reichsmarschall]

Why should there be a glass partition ?

They may as well have had a skype meeting

this is how criminals get to talk to their families in jail

 

[third eye]

this is how criminals get to talk to their families in jail

Why go thru the rigmarole , a Skype meeting would have been the same.

Injury marks on & behind his right ear..

One of the reasons why physical meeting not permitted ?

 

[Great Sachin]

this is a joke...india should stop all diplomatic relations with pakistan

 

[Spy Master]

this is how criminals get to talk to their families in jail

Actually in India they make criminal and butcher their Prime Minister, so he was in shock after seeing how we treat criminals and terrorists here!

 

[RescueRanger]

http://thestudentlawyer.com/2012/05...etween-domestic-and-international-law-part-1/

monism asserts the supremacy of international law within the municipal sphere and describes the individual as a subject of international law. The doctrine is established when international and municipal law form a part of the same system of norms which are based on general notions of fairness. The latter concept somewhat translates into an alternative theory which entails that international and municipal law are superseded by a general legal order which rests upon the rules of natural law.


https://www.law.berkeley.edu/library/dynamic/guide.php?id=65

Under United States law, however, there is a distinction made between the terms treaty and executive agreement. "In the United States, the word treaty is reserved for an agreement that is made 'by and with the Advice and Consent of the Senate' (Article II, section 2, clause 2 of the Constitution). International agreements not submitted to the Senate are known as 'executive agreements' in the United States." [3] Generally, a treaty is a binding international agreement and an executive agreement applies in domestic law only. Under international law, however, both types of agreements are considered binding. Regardless of whether an international agreement is called a convention, agreement, protocol, accord, etc.; if it is submitted to the Senate for advice and consent, it is considered a treaty under United States law.



They have been watching too many hollywood movies.

.... more pakistani drama.

Lol nonsense! How does that counter the 3rd Amendment?

 

[RescueRanger]

Well done Pakistan!

 

[undercover JIX]

this is how criminals get to talk to their families in jail

First they wanted meeting, when that is granted, Why Behind glass partition, why standing, why not in 5 Star Hotel..Yaaro meeting ho rahi hai as you wanted, let the man meet his family be happy.

 

[YogaMudra]

Lol nonsense! How does that counter the 3rd Amendment?

Vienna convention was signed by pakistan in 61.

Your amendment was in 71 and is in violation of the Vienna convention.

So that is YOUR problem, not the worlds problem.

Stop looking at others to solve your own mess.