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KSA wants huge Naval deals but on the condition that 50% of the value of each contract is spent locally

I still can't understand why Arab countries are not inducting Submarines. A Navy without good number of submarines is basically suicide mission. What on earth is stopping them from inducting submarines.
Saudi Arabia had requested submarines from Germany a while back,, but the request was refused..

There is a recent deal with France to make ships and submarines..
 
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That’s the LCS (littoral patrol ships basically) recently ditched by the US navy, after only a few years in service.

I was asking about something akin to the Arleigh Burkes
Saudi Arabia refused the LCS.. the negotiations went on for more than 10 years till a new design was displayed..then it was accepted..MMSC tailor made to KSA's specs..
 
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Are we talking about the same thing here? Littoral patrol ships is quite an understatement.

Lockheed Martin Started Construction on Saudi Arabia's 2nd MMSC's 2nd MMSC
Lockheed Martin picture

Lockheed Martin Started Construction On Saudi Arabia’s 2nd MMSC​

Lockheed Martin and Fincantieri started construction on the second Multi Mission Surface Combatant (MMSC) for the Royal Saudi Navy (RSN). A low key steel cutting ceremony took place on at Fincantieri Marinette Marine in Wisconsin in late January.​

Xavier Vavasseur 16 Mar 2021

A Lockheed Martin spokesperson confirmed to Naval News that the first cut of steel for MMSC 2 was on January 28, 2021 and shared pictures of the event. The name of the ship has not been disclosed yet.

For the record, Lockheed Martin was awarded a contract totaling $450 million to begin the detailed design and planning for construction of four Multi-Mission Surface Combatants (MMSC) to be built at Fincantieri Marinette Marine shipyard back in July 2018. The vessels are being procured as part of a modernization program for the RSN’s eastern fleet called SNEP II (Saudi Naval Expansion Program). Steel cutting for HMS Saud, the first ship-in-class took place on 28 October 2019.

MMSC is based on the Freedom-class Littoral Combat Ship of the U.S. Navy. It utilizes the COMBATSS-21 Combat Management System, built from the Aegis Combat System Common Source Library, enabling anti-air and anti-surface capabilities in a small surface combatant platform. With proven combat management system lineage, Lockheed Martin’s MMSC has the interoperability necessary for today’s joint and allied naval force maneuvers.

“We are pleased the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia has selected the Multi-Mission Surface Combatant to support its Royal Saudi Naval Forces fleet,” said in July 2018 Joe DePietro, vice president, Lockheed Martin Small Combatants and Ship Systems.


Lockheed-Martin-Fincantieri-Start-Construction-on-Royal-Saudi-Navy-1st-MMSC-1-1024x683.jpg
Artist impression of Royal Saudi Navy MMSC and MH-60R helicopter. Lockheed Martin image.

The July 2018 contract award was preceded by a $481 million FMS award in March 2018 and followed by another $282 million award in November 2018.

The Saudi MMSC will be fitted with 8x Mk41 vertical launch systems for ESSM surface to air missiles, a SeaRAM launcher on top of the helicopter hangar, 8x Harpoon anti-ship missiles, a BAE Systems Bofors 57mm main gun and 2x Nexter Narwhal 20mm remote weapon systems as secondary artillery. The sensor suite includes a Hensoldt TRS-4D AESA Radar, 2x SAAB CEROS 200 radar and optronic tracking fire control director, Argon ST WBR-2000 Electronic Support Measure and Threat Warning System and a variable depth sonar.

Royal Saudi Navy’s MH-60R Romeo​

Royal-Sausi-Navy-MH-60R-1024x571.jpg
Induction ceremony of the first MH-60R “Romeos” of the Royal Saudi Navy in December 2020. Saudi MoD picture.

The RSN is also procuring MH-60R Romeo to be deployed from these veseels. According to Lockheed Martin, paired with world’s most advanced maritime helicopter, the MH-60R, the MMSC will have a robust anti-submarine mission capability that is fully interoperable with the U.S. Navy and its coalition partners.

The first MH-60R maritime helicopters were inducted during an inauguration ceremony on 23 December 2020. During the ceremony, Commander of the Royal Saudi Navy, Lieutenant General Fahd bin Abdullah Al-Ghafili, said the Romeo features the latest technologies and systems, which will enhance the capabilities of the RSN to face all challenges and threats in the region. Saudi Arabia has 10 “Romeos” on order. The first delivery took place in 2018.

So far, the Romeo has been selected by the navies of the United States, Saudi Arabia, Denmark, Australia, India, Greece and South Korea. The U.S. Navy is the main operator of the MH-60R with 289 units in its fleet. It acts as the primary anti-submarine warfare and anti-surface warfare helicopter in the fleet.


I am not aware of any such plans but does anyone in KSA's neighborhood have those type of destroyers? I don't think that anyone in the Muslim world have ships in that class to begin with.

If USA would export the Arleigh Burke-class destroyer, I am sure that KSA would try to buy it.

What destroyer options would you have in mind for the RSANF? I personally had the South Korean KDDX-class destroyer in mind whenever (if) opens up for export if Western destroyer options are unavailable.
South Korea's Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) has launched Jeongjo the Great, the flagship ship of the KDX (Gwanggaeto)-III Batch-II destroyer project..

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The stealth destroyer with a length of 170 meters and a width of 21 meters is equipped with the latest Aegis combat system with Raytheon SM-3 Block IB interceptors that can not only detect and track ballistic missiles but also intercept them. It will be able to carry MH-60R Sea Hawk helicopters, which the country plans to start operating in 2024. The ship can reach a speed of 30 knots and accommodate 300 sailors..
 
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Regardless of who Saudi Arabia chooses, they need to unify their toys. Having all these suppliers from around the world is a drag on logistics and maintenance.
 
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Regardless of who Saudi Arabia chooses, they need to unify their toys. Having all these suppliers from around the world is a drag on logistics and maintenance.

The Spanish (Navantia) and French options will have a great deal of ToT and local production. Up to 60% from what I read. Not sure about the US MMSC's.

Basically all of them are Western systems that are already present in the Saudi Arabian navy and rather familiar. Only the Navantia cooperation is a new thing and ironically a lot was gained from that cooperation and much more will be gained.

South Korea's Hyundai Heavy Industries (HHI) has launched Jeongjo the Great, the flagship ship of the KDX (Gwanggaeto)-III Batch-II destroyer project..

View attachment 866226

The stealth destroyer with a length of 170 meters and a width of 21 meters is equipped with the latest Aegis combat system with Raytheon SM-3 Block IB interceptors that can not only detect and track ballistic missiles but also intercept them. It will be able to carry MH-60R Sea Hawk helicopters, which the country plans to start operating in 2024. The ship can reach a speed of 30 knots and accommodate 300 sailors..

South Korea seems as the best option on paper as I wrote. They are very generous with ToT and open for local production. Look at the recent deal that they signed with Poland. KSA and SK have close and historical ties, this should be taken advantage of. Only problem is the critical US parts in SK military products as we discussed earlier in the thread.

Anyway I saw this post of yours in the "Made in KSA" thread. Good news.

Jul 27, 2022

Technical services agreements are a key factor in the localization of the shipbuilding industry of all kinds in the Kingdom, and the signing of this agreement with our strategic partner HHI comes at a very appropriate time to support the launch of shipbuilding in the facilities of the International Maritime Industries Company soon.. God willing..

International Maritime Industries is delighted to sign a new agreement with Hyundai Heavy Industry ..This agreement increases efforts to transfer technical knowledge and contributes to strengthening our capabilities in the field of engineering and shipbuilding in the marine industries sector..




Saudi Arabia had requested submarines from Germany a while back,, but the request was refused..

There is a recent deal with France to make ships and submarines..

Do we know if Germany would be open for exports now that the geopolitics have changed completely and Europe (Germany in particular) is desperate economically speaking?

Probably there is less appetite for lecturing about "human rights" and playing the upper morale hand. I still find it funny that a nation like Germany with its bloody history (WW1 and WW2 anyone?) even dares to lecture anyone. Let alone given their dealings with Israel.
 
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The Spanish (Navantia) and French options will have a great deal of ToT and local production. Up to 60% from what I read. Not sure about the US MMSC's.

Basically all of them are Western systems that are already present in the Saudi Arabian navy and rather familiar. Only the Navantia cooperation is a new thing and ironically a lot was gained from that cooperation and much more will be gained.



South Korea seems as the best option on paper as I wrote. They are very generous with ToT and open for local production. Look at the recent deal that they signed with Poland. KSA and SK have close and historical ties, this should be taken advantage of. Only problem is the critical US parts in SK military products as we discussed earlier in the thread.

Anyway I saw this post of yours in the "Made in KSA" thread. Good news.





Do we know if Germany would be open for exports now that the geopolitics have changed completely and Europe (Germany in particular) is desperate economically speaking?

Probably there is less appetite for lecturing about "human rights" and playing the upper morale hand. I still find it funny that a nation like Germany with its bloody history (WW1 and WW2 anyone?) even dares to lecture anyone. Let alone given their dealings with Israel.
The submarines along with some ships will be French.. SAMI already signed an agreement with Naval group..
 
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Saudi Arabia had requested submarines from Germany a while back,, but the request was refused..

There is a recent deal with France to make ships and submarines..

Get from China, Japan, Sweden.
 
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Any details of that deal? How do those French submarines compare to the German ones?
https://english.alarabiya.net/busin...-frigates-military-submarines-in-Saudi-Arabia

There is no comparison..both are pretty sophisticated..the difference is in ToT.. Naval group has a ToT program..Germany doesn't..



Get from China, Japan, Sweden.
Forget Sweden and Japan..they won't give ToT.. China..maybe..But the YUAN class is too heavy for what KSA needs..
 
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News regarding the MMSC deal


• Saudi Arabia is making a large number of changes to its MMSC
• Riyadh chose CAMM missiles instead of the RIM-162 to equip four MMSC ships
The contract provides for the production of CAMM missiles in the Kingdom in cooperation with MBDA
• The contract value is $145 million

@The SC @FuturePAF @Zarvan
 
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how does this ship fit into the Saudi Naval doctrine?

I am not aware of the Saudi Arabian naval doctrine to be able to answer such a question. Maybe @The SC will be qualified to do so.

However my assumption based on naval purchase developments and otherwise regional Saudi Arabian policies and regional Saudi Arabian military/naval bases/close cooperation in countries such as Yemen, Djibouti, Eritrea, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia/Somaliland GCC etc. is that the long-term goals of KSA or at least the GCC alliance, is to have a blue-water navy. At least in the immediate sphere (Red Sea, Persian/Arab Gulf, Gulf of Oman and Arabian Sea.

As we discussed earlier in the thread, KSA/GCC is situated next to 3 of the most important/strategic waterways in the world (Suez, Bab el Mandeb, Strait of Hormuz) in the richest hydrocarbon region on the planet, strategically located along 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe) so that requires a strong navy, something that has been neglected overall IMO. At least looking at it from the outside.


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As an important side note and something that is worth taking into consideration here IMO, is that Eastern/Southern Yemen will have a hard time surviving on their own and that they would might want to join with KSA, giving KSA direct access to the Gulf of Aden and Arabian Sea. Before the Yemeni civil war, there were proposals and calls by leading Yemeni tribes in Hadhramaut to merge with KSA due to marginalization from the North. It is important to note here that the largest Hadhrami community in the Arab world is located in KSA, mainly Jeddah and elsewhere. Only the population in Indonesia, which makes up at least 5 million Arab-Indonesians, is larger worldwide.

This would also give KSA an opportunity to say that the intervention in Yemen was worthwhile other than stopping complete Houthi seizure of Yemen. Not talking about another Crimea here but such a move would have widespread support in large parts of those areas of Yemen. However whether it will be worth it economically or become a burden more than anything and outweighs the positives, is obviously unknown but at least it could become the first step to the natural merger of Arabia into a single federal state as I see it.

Anyway I can see that happening easily down the road.
 
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I am not aware of the Saudi Arabian naval doctrine to be able to answer such a question. Maybe @The SC will be qualified to do so.

However my assumption based on naval purchase developments and otherwise regional Saudi Arabian policies and regional Saudi Arabian military/naval bases/close cooperation in countries such as Yemen, Djibouti, Eritrea, Egypt, Sudan, Somalia/Somaliland GCC etc. is that the long-term goals of KSA or at least the GCC alliance, is to have a blue-water navy. At least in the immediate sphere (Red Sea, Persian/Arab Gulf, Gulf of Oman and Arabian Sea.

As we discussed earlier in the thread, KSA/GCC is situated next to 3 of the most important/strategic waterways in the world (Suez, Bab el Mandeb, Strait of Hormuz) in the richest hydrocarbon region on the planet, strategically located along 3 continents (Asia, Africa and Europe) so that requires a strong navy, something that has been neglected overall IMO. At least looking at it from the outside.


1658762364454.png



1658762392145.png



1658762384749.png


As an important side note and something that is worth taking into consideration here IMO, is that Eastern/Southern Yemen will have a hard time surviving on their own and that they would might want to join with KSA, giving KSA direct access to the Gulf of Aden and Arabian Sea. Before the Yemeni civil war, there were proposals and calls by leading Yemeni tribes in Hadhramaut to merge with KSA due to marginalization from the North. It is important to note here that the largest Hadhrami community in the Arab world is located in KSA, mainly Jeddah and elsewhere. Only the population in Indonesia, which makes up at least 5 million Arab-Indonesians, is larger worldwide.

This would also give KSA an opportunity to say that the intervention in Yemen was worthwhile other than stopping complete Houthi seizure of Yemen. Not talking about another Crimea here but such a move would have widespread support in large parts of those areas of Yemen. However whether it will be worth it economically or become a burden more than anything and outweighs the positives, is obviously unknown but at least it could become the first step to the natural merger of Arabia into a single federal state as I see it.

Anyway I can see that happening easily down the road.
With the US pivoting to the Indo-Pacific, the GCC is looking like it is trying to become as self-sufficient in taking control of its region. I recall an article a few years ago saying, considering how destabilizing an undeveloped Yemen, post hostilities would be, the Saudis had saved up a lot of money to come in and rebuild it, when the opportunity presented itself.

Hopefully part of the redevelopment will be building the bridge or tunnel between Djibouti and Yemen, and connecting it with the planned GCC railway. Regional connectivity will give a lot of opportunities to those willing to invest in the region and neighboring regions (South Asia and Africa), namely the GCC.
 
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how does this ship fit into the Saudi Naval doctrine?
Lockheed-Martin-MMSC_01.jpg


The MMSC can counter maritime threats in the open ocean, as well as along coasts in inside harbors. It can handle anti-surface warfare, anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-air warfare, mine warfare, electronic warfare (EW), and special operations.

The MMSC will feature Lockheed Martin COMBATSS-21 combat management system (CMS) to integrate the ship’s sensors, communications, and armament. Sensors will include a TRS-4D surveillance and target acquisition radar, a modern fire control radar, a multi-function phased array radar, an identification friend or foe (IFF) system, towed hull-mounted and dipping sonars, and a compact low-frequency active and passive variable-depth sonar.

The ship will have a large flight deck at the rear to accommodate an MH-60R Seahawk multi-mission maritime helicopter. It also will have a large hangar to accommodate the MH-60R helicopter, as well as and two unmanned helicopters.

The MMSC, in the anti-ship role, can be armed with two Harpoon missile launchers with eight RGM-84 Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles, one MK-15 Mod 31 SeaRAM close-in weapon system (CIWS) with 11-cell RIM 116C Block II Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAMs), a 57-millimeter Mk110 deck gun, and a medium-caliber rapid-fire gun.

For ASW missions the ship will have the MH-60 helicopter and AN/SLQ-25 torpedo defense system. For the anti-aircraft role, the MMSC can have an eight-cell Mk-41 vertical launch system with 32 RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow missiles (ESSM), long-range standard missiles, medium-caliber rapid-fire main gun, and CIWS.

For mine warfare, the ship can accommodate a remote multi-mission vehicle (RMMV). The ship also can support 20-millimeter remote guns on each side.

The MMSC will have combined diesel and gas engines, and will be able to operate as fast as 30 knots, even in high seas, with a range of 5,000 nautical miles.


In brief.. it will be a solid backbone for the RSN and the Jack of all trade..
 
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Lockheed-Martin-MMSC_01.jpg


The MMSC can counter maritime threats in the open ocean, as well as along coasts in inside harbors. It can handle anti-surface warfare, anti-submarine warfare (ASW), anti-air warfare, mine warfare, electronic warfare (EW), and special operations.

The MMSC will feature Lockheed Martin COMBATSS-21 combat management system (CMS) to integrate the ship’s sensors, communications, and armament. Sensors will include a TRS-4D surveillance and target acquisition radar, a modern fire control radar, a multi-function phased array radar, an identification friend or foe (IFF) system, towed hull-mounted and dipping sonars, and a compact low-frequency active and passive variable-depth sonar.

The ship will have a large flight deck at the rear to accommodate an MH-60R Seahawk multi-mission maritime helicopter. It also will have a large hangar to accommodate the MH-60R helicopter, as well as and two unmanned helicopters.

The MMSC, in the anti-ship role, can be armed with two Harpoon missile launchers with eight RGM-84 Harpoon Block II anti-ship missiles, one MK-15 Mod 31 SeaRAM close-in weapon system (CIWS) with 11-cell RIM 116C Block II Rolling Airframe Missiles (RAMs), a 57-millimeter Mk110 deck gun, and a medium-caliber rapid-fire gun.

For ASW missions the ship will have the MH-60 helicopter and AN/SLQ-25 torpedo defense system. For the anti-aircraft role, the MMSC can have an eight-cell Mk-41 vertical launch system with 32 RIM-162 Evolved Sea Sparrow missiles (ESSM), long-range standard missiles, medium-caliber rapid-fire main gun, and CIWS.

For mine warfare, the ship can accommodate a remote multi-mission vehicle (RMMV). The ship also can support 20-millimeter remote guns on each side.

The MMSC will have combined diesel and gas engines, and will be able to operate as fast as 30 knots, even in high seas, with a range of 5,000 nautical miles.


In brief.. it will be a solid backbone for the RSN and the Jack of all trade..
So in short, a medium range frigate (workhorse/all round decent enough platform) for the Saudi Navy. Perhaps under Saudi ownership, the ship will finally get to be what the designers had hoped it would become. Hopefully the engine/shaft issues have been addressed.
 
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