Khatam e nabowat bill passed

[Jungibaaz]

What else response you expected for an absurd statement like " nor Jinnah envisage the full implementation of Sharia"

I mean, either Sharia is implemented or it is not -

Try refuting the point you made on not allowing participation of minorities, or don't bother discussing other issues. Clutching at straws is worse than not responding.

The quote above allows them freedom of worship, citizenship, and acknowledges they 'have their responsibilities also and they will play their part in the affairs of this state'. Just the words 'have their responsibilities' suggest that their responsibilities are different from others. Based on these special responsibilities, they will play their part in the affairs of this state. He is literally carving out a role for them.

I agree that he does imply a special status for them and role, but he also says that they would have every right a Muslim citizen has, making no further qualifying statement. "They will be, in all respects, the citizens of Pakistan without any distinction". We need someone better informed on Jinnah than me to find anything more conclusive than the quote I posted about Jinnah's take on the role of minorities.

 

[shah_123]

Doesn't matter what other quotes you dig up of his on Islamic system and what you believe that entails. Here he said it loud and clear, non-minorities participate in the state and are not excluded.

Refute this or don't bother with the rest, I never argued anything else with you beside this point.

Don't worry, you will get the response.
It's almost 1:00 am and it's a big headache to respond from a smartphone.

The quotes matter, how can you say it doesn't matter - Did he used the words Islamic state or not?

Jinnah will not give you A-Z on the functioning of an Islamic state in his speeches -- Refer to books explaining the subject.

 

[cocomo]

 

[HAIDER]

Before implementing Sharia, need to implement prerequisites of Sharia. Which is far more toughest job to implement Sharia. Welfare of living ones , taxation to judiciary all need to be revived and obey by every citizen of state. But, we seen a good circus yesterday under the election bill 2017.

 

[Verve]

Subversion of the state, if that is meddling, then I agree, but then you cannot limit that to minorities, it becomes true of any person, Muslim or Non-Muslim. Zia allowed Pakistan to become much more conservative and attempted to further tie Islam as he saw it to the state as much as possible, yet from day one his role as leader wasn't only based on a constitutional violation, he suspended the whole constitution and committed high treason which caries the death penalty. Also, I am quite sure Jinnah would have allowed reforms of any constitution of Pakistan.

Zia was not the founding father and he is dead and irrelevant. We need to build on our foundations and not look to West for the secular system for some magical economical and social progression - Jinnah and Iqbal gave us ample warnings on Western democracies.

Seculars are a minority (smaller than Ahmadis most likely) but they will not be allowed to dictate changes in the constitution that are against Quran and Sunnah. This is the type of breach that will not be tolerated.

Look at Malaysia. Shariah is imposed on Muslims only - minorities can drink (their right protected) but muslims are punished if caught. Also the state religion is Islam in Malaysia (despite a narrow majority) and no one is allowed to challenge that, same in Pak. But we have been here a few times already so no need to repeat.

 

[HAIDER]

prefer this over this ..

 

[Jungibaaz]

Don't worry, you will get the response.
It's almost 1:00 am and it's a big headache to respond from a smartphone.

The quotes matter, how can you say it doesn't matter - Did he used the words Islamic state or not?

Jinnah will not give you A-Z on the functioning of an Islamic state in his speeches -- Refer to books explaining the subject.

Look, I'll save you from writing a 10 page long reply distracting from the actual debate we were having.
Which was whether Jinnah believed in the right of participation of minorities or not.

You're providing Jinnah's statements about implementation of an Islamic system, that's fine, but you are then yourself implying that this means that Jinnah must advocate not allowing minorities political power equal to Muslim citizens, he has NEVER advocated such a thing, ever. If this is not what you're saying, then fine, we don't disagree and we have no further discussion.

Now, instead of posting around the subject using Jinnah, I gave you his direct quote where he says they will play their role in the state and they will be considered full citizens. I feel that settles the matter entirely, it's in plain words. What you are saying goes against what Jinnah said about minorities. Any further attempts you make to justify your opinion can't ignore the exact quote where he says they can participate.

 

[razgriz19]

Good for Pakistan. Country has no religion. People in a country should be free to practice whatever religion in peace

 

[HAIDER]

Look, I'll save you from writing a 10 page long reply distracting from the actual debate we were having.
Which was whether Jinnah believed in the right of participation of minorities or not.

You're providing Jinnah's statements about implementation of an Islamic system, that's fine, but you are then yourself implying that this means that Jinnah must advocate not allowing minorities political power equal to Muslim citizens, he has NEVER advocated such a thing, ever. If this is not what you're saying, then fine, we don't disagree and we have no further discussion.

Now, instead of posting around the subject using Jinnah, I gave you his direct quote where he says they will play their role in the state and they will be considered full citizens. I feel that settles the matter entirely, it's in plain words. What you are saying goes against what Jinnah said about minorities. Any further attempts you make to justify your opinion can't ignore the exact quote where he says they can participate.

Can you post the Quaid speech to first session of 47 parliament. It will clear all the dust. Where Quaid has pretty much sum up the whole under construction constitution in his speech.

 

[shah_123]

Try refuting the point you made on not allowing participation of minorities, or don't bother discussing other issues. Clutching at straws is worse than not responding.

I can't really help if you don't even know the basic functioning of an Islamic state (the understanding will come from reading books and not arguing in a public forum)

Please don't put your words in my mouth and don't argue with me on assumptions.-- Where I said that non Muslims can't participate in the affairs of an Islamic state ?

How could you even give examples of rohingyas/black Americans in our discussion relating to Pakistan. --- Aren't our minorities part of our armed forces, police - Aren't they lawyers/judges/doctors etc.,

But the key positions can't go to minorities - We are an Islamic state and not a secular state.

Look, I'll save you from writing a 10 page long reply distracting from the actual debate we were having.
Which was whether Jinnah believed in the right of participation of minorities or not.

You're providing Jinnah's statements about implementation of an Islamic system, that's fine, but you are then yourself implying that this means that Jinnah must advocate not allowing minorities political power equal to Muslim citizens, he has NEVER advocated such a thing, ever. If this is not what you're saying, then fine, we don't disagree and we have no further discussion.

Now, instead of posting around the subject using Jinnah, I gave you his direct quote where he says they will play their role in the state and they will be considered full citizens. I feel that settles the matter entirely, it's in plain words. What you are saying goes against what Jinnah said about minorities. Any further attempts you make to justify your opinion can't ignore the exact quote where he says they can participate.

Lala Gee!
minorities participating in state affairs and holding key positions like PM/ Army chief etc., are two different things.

On one end you accept that Jinnah wanted an Islamic state, humein bhi toa samjhao how can a non muslim become head of an Islamic state -- Give me one example of an Islamic state from our history, starting from Prophet Muhammad and ending on Ottomans, where a non muslim was the head or held key positions.

Minorities can happily participate, who is stopping them -- Hindu generals were part of Aurangzeb Alamgir's army, Jews participated in affairs of Ottomans etc.,

 

[Jungibaaz]

I can't really help if you don't even know the basic functioning of an Islamic state (the understanding will come from reading books and not arguing in a public forum)

Please don't put your words in my mouth and don't argue with me on assumptions.-- Where I said that non Muslims can't participate in the affairs of an Islamic state ?

How could you even give examples of rohingyas/black Americans in our discussion relating to Pakistan. --- Aren't our minorities part of our armed forces, police - Aren't they lawyers/judges/doctors etc.,

But the key positions can't go to minorities - We are an Islamic state and not a secular state.

LOL. First time I responded to you, we were discussing the role of non-Muslims meddling in state affairs.

But the business of state will be Islam, refer to Quaid's other speeches. --- and an Islamic state doesn't allow non Muslims to interfere/meddle in it's affairs.

The following discussion for the past two pages has been on this topic, and now you change your stance, you're accusing me of misrepresenting your point?

...then tying that to an Islamic state, then tying that with a particularly long rope for non-participation for non-Muslims.

Also, you should know, not allowing minorities to participate is classic oppression and discrimination.

where religious minorities are excluded from participation.

...non-minorities participate in the state and are not excluded.

...to what extent a non-Muslim can participate.

Try refuting the point you made on not allowing minorities to participate.

Which was whether Jinnah believed in the right of participation of minorities or not.

Well it is good to see you accepting that minorities have the right to participate (sorry for using that word again), albeit with the little disclaimer that top level leadership should remain to your liking.

Okay, whatever, as long as you're now not taking the more extreme position. That's fine by me if you yourself have got rid of the disagreement.

 

[Verve]

Meddling == interfere in something that is not one's concern
Participate == be involved; take part

Meddling - No!
Participate - Yes!
Political Power to over-rule/replace Islamic laws/system - No!

People should look at the history of Islamic Spain (711-1492) and how the jews and christians thrived during that time in comparison to their earlier rulers. They participated and thrived, especially the jews, but they were not granted political power.

 

[YeBeWarned]

What if i tell you me & hell hound has signed a "deal"?

@Hell hound baich dia apna iman , sirf 1 BBQ pizza mai .. Kamine

 

[Jungibaaz]

Meddling == interfere in something that is not one's concern
Participate == be involved; take part

Meddling - No!
Participate - Yes!
Political Power to over-rule/replace Islamic laws/system - No!

People should look at the history of Islamic Spain (711-1492) and how the jews and christians thrived during that time. They participated and thrived, especially the jews, but they were not granted political power.

On the last part, I'd add, political power =/= meddling. Political power is participation. Think about it, they say the whole point of democracy is that the demos (ordinary people) get the final say on how society is structured and organised and how they govern themselves, they do this by participating, in today's world that means voting. In ancient Greece, Athenian democracy meant literally participating, voting did not happen at all, instead any citizen could be randomly selected to serve a maximum term wielding political power, that's called sortition.

I think what you mean is that they ought not to be given complete authority, top level positions, and any power that would substantially undermine the Islamic Republic. Giving minorities political power is just a right extended to them as citizens.

 

[shah_123]

Well it is good to see you accepting that minorities have the right to participate (sorry for using that word again), albeit with the little disclaimer that top level leadership should remain to your liking.

Okay, whatever, as long as you're now not taking the more extreme position. That's fine by me if you yourself have got rid of the disagreement.

Yeah you finally won, Super Asia washing machine Aap ki hui.

Sarkar, I believe in the domination of Political, Social, Economic system of Islam -- If you didn't get my viewpoint ( mera kya kasur). Why would I or who am I to object when Islam gives right to minorities --- I simply said that minorities can't hold head of the state, army etc., positions.

Anyways, it was a good discussion.