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Kayani should be court-martialed - Even Musharraf blames Kayani for delay because Kayani was scared

You did not answer my question, what would have you done if you were in place of Zia? What I think of Zia being competent as COAS and president does not matter now. I strictly believe Bhutto bhi mar gya Zia bhi mar Gya now move on Pakistan.
I don't know what i'd have done. I don't have classified information on my hand. But based on what is accessible and I've read, I would not have gone in Afghanistan. Soviet was bound to collapse and if Pakistan was to be threatened, there would've been international coalation the same way it was for Korea. Beside, Pakistan was not an easy state to defeat like Afghanistan was. So I'd not have feared for Soviet expansion into Pakistan.

If I had no choice but to go, i'd have made sure that Pakistan stays clean and war happens in Afghanistan. I'd have taken on Afghanistan through Pakistani army, not create militia and train them in Pakistan, bring Ak47 in Pakistan and so forth.

For the 1st bold part what are we known as today now? After loosing near 60,000 lives and big time f**kng up our economy. How the world looks at us today? Who lost the most in this war?

For the second bold part are sure at that time they were using Pakistan's territory?
At that time we didn't know we will lose 60,000 lives or have an incompetent COAS like Kayani. Musharraf was absolutely sure Benzair and Nawaz were not to be allowed back.

You cannot compare like this.
 
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Musharraf blames Kayani for delay in action against Taliban - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

This guy is the most scared COAS of Pakistan that I've come to known. Worse than the general who surrendered in Bangladesh. That guy surrendered over 70,000 soldiers, this guy surrendered Pakistan. He was scared for his life, because of which, tens of thousands of innocents lives were lost. He didn't want to face the risk of being attacked and scared of religious people too and thus didn't pursue operation against Taliban. So indeed he should be court martialed for all the innocent lives that were lost because of an incompetent and scared general of Pakistan.

Terrorists existed during the time of Musharraf and he went for lal masjid operation despite many being against the operation and opting for peace talks. He knew that negotiations are not understood by barbaric, it only buys them time. Kayani's inefficiency resulted in the tumor of Pakistan growing and hitting every joint of Pakistan until recent loss of nearly 150 students. Their blood is also on Kayani. We've to do the dirty laundry because someone was too scared. Another article: Kayani feared religious right’s backlash against him: Athar Abbas - Pakistan - DAWN.COM

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KARACHI: Former army chief retired Gen Pervez Musharraf believes that one of the reasons why the country’s security challenges have become almost insurmountable now is because his successor, retired Gen Ashfaq Parvez Kayani, was too scared to take action against militants.

In an interview with Dawn on Tuesday, Gen Musharraf said that it was Gen Kayani’s own reluctance — and not poor judgement — that caused him to not launch an operation against the Taliban.

“You see, the main issue is that when a government is inactive, it requires an army chief to go and coax it into action. That’s what [Gen] Raheel has done. So either Gen Kayani was scared or too reticent or too reserved. He didn’t want to go and discuss this matter.”

‘I don’t think there should be martial law’
When this reporter pointed out that Gen Kayani must have gone to the then Pakistan Peoples Party government for an extension in his term as army chief — and the PPP government was said to have acquiesced within hours — Gen Musharraf said: “But that was for his own person. The army was clear in its views as a whole. They wanted action, even in Kayani’s days. Kayani has to be asked why he did not act [against militants]. I wouldn’t be able to comment on that. But the delay was all in that period.”

The former military ruler recalls that his government took on Tehreek-i-Taliban Pakistan chief Mulla Fazlullah in 2007. “We acted against him and defeated him. Peaceful elections were held in 2008. The turnout was good. The Awami National Party — and not religious parties — came to power in Khyber Pakhtunkhwa. And then Fazlullah was allowed to return and set on fire 13 girls schools. He had the tourist resort in Malam Jabba torched. No action was taken till he crossed the Shangla Hills and almost blocked the Karakoram Highway. When there was international hue and cry that the militants were only 100 miles away from Islamabad, then they woke up.”

Apart from blaming Gen Kayani for his pusillanimity even when a wave of terrorism swept through the country, Gen Musharraf also feels he was let down by his successor when political adversaries thought he was vulnerable — he had taken off the all-powerful army uniform — and threatened him with an impeachment move.

Was he disappointed? “To a degree, yes. He could have helped out there. But, you see, I didn’t want to sit in the presidency as a useless president. I am not that type.” Had Gen Kayani made it clear that in a stand-off between Gen Musharraf and the PPP government, he would be neutral. “Yes.”

But Gen Musharraf seems to be quite happy with his successor’s successor, Gen Raheel Sharif. So much so that he does not mind Gen Sharif becoming a globetrotting army chief, hobnobbing with world leaders and conducting the country’s foreign policy.

“It’s not he who’s doing that, it’s those countries who are giving him that stature. The army is the only stabilising institution in Pakistan. That is why they give importance to the military chief. Especially when they also see the degree of bad governance going on. They want to see where the stability comes from. That is why they give him importance. He should take it. He should be proud of it. Look, international relations largely depend on personalities. Agar aap nay ja kay kookro ban kay baith jana hai, to aap to kya importance milay gi.”

Emboldened by Gen Sharif’s initiatives against militancy — especially after the gruesome attack on the Army Public School in Peshawar — the Muttahida Qaumi Movement has called for the imposition of martial law in Sindh? Does Gen Musharraf think the call for martial law is reasonable and fair?

“I don’t think there should be martial law. And I have my reasons. Pakistan is facing the worst situation in its history. The economy is not doing well. Terrorism is in all the provinces. It has never been this bad. The army is a fallback force in the country. We call it in the military, a force in being. Its potential consists in being. If you use it or consume it, it’s gone. If you were to use the military, and suppose in the present situation of turmoil, they are unable to rectify the socio-economic ills of Pakistan, you’d have consumed this fallback force.

NRO deal, with the benefit of hindsight

Gen Musharraf feels bad having struck the NRO deal with former prime minister Benazir Bhutto. “I shouldn’t have done that. It impacted me very wrongly and the political realities of Pakistan. My popularity went down because of the NRO deal.”

Dismissing the assertion made by former US secretary of state Condoleezza Rice in her memoirs that she brokered a deal between Gen Musharraf and Ms Bhutto, he recalls that the NRO deal was actually aimed at “weaning away the PPP and Benazir” from the group of political parties that were agreeing on the Charter of Democracy in London.

“I met Benazir in Abu Dhabi. She had three demands. First, remove Article 58-2B [of the Constitution]. The moment she said that, I said out of the question. And the way I said it, she immediately conceded. She said alright put this aside. She demanded an end to the restriction on a person becoming a prime minister for a third time and withdrawal of corruption cases. I demanded that she wouldn’t return before the elections. She asked me when the elections would be held. I said roughly in the first or second week of Dec 2007. She said she would be able to come before New Year. And, on a lighter note, she asked me if she invited me to a New Year party, would I come. I said I would. This was the level of understanding of what she had to do.”

Gen Musharraf returned to Pakistan to discuss Ms Bhutto’s demands with his political partners, notably the Chaudhrys of Gujrat. Apparently, the veteran politicians told Gen Musharraf that if he removed the third-time prime ministership condition, he would merely confirm rumours already swirling in the country that the United States wanted Gen Musharraf to be president and Ms Bhutto to be his prime minister. They, however, had no issues with the corruption cases.

“They said that out of 11 cases of corruption against Benazir and Zardari, they have been acquitted in eight cases. They might get acquitted in the remaining three also. That got me convinced. Prime minister [Shaukat Aziz] used to attend all those meetings.”

Trial or vendetta

Gen Musharraf grimaces when he is reminded — apologetically — that former president Asif Ali Zardari almost always refers to him as a billa. However, when he is asked the reason for Mr Zardari’s animus towards him, he chuckles and says: “No reason. He has made the best of everything. I know he knows that I didn’t have Benazir assassinated, though he keeps maligning me on this issue. And the language is certainly unbecoming.”

Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif, however, has a valid reason to bear a grudge against Gen Musharraf. The former strongman ousted Mr Sharif in a coup in Oct 1999.

“Nawaz Sharif has a reason, but he’s taking it to an extent where it has become an issue of instability ... my trial, being hostile towards me, putting my name on the ECL [Exit Control List] ... these things are not going down well with the army ... my trial is vendetta. I am the only former head of state in Pakistan who has been to the lowest courts in the subordinate judiciary.”

Gen Musharraf’s travails will come out in the sequel to his autobiography that he is updating these days.
Hede come another bullshit from N league it was Kiyani who cleared South Wazristan and SWAT and Bannu and other tribal areas there was not much support than and also he didn't wanted to give the message it was done under USA orders
 
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Nothing like that he knew if he would not stand with US then he would have to leave leave Government so he stand with US and became king of country.
Sanctions work. Pakistan was already effected by the sanctions imposed after the nuckes test. As a matter of fact, siding with US on on war on terror helped ease some sanctions. Correct me if i'm wrong, it was this time that we received our F16s. Otherwise we'd have said good bye to them for next many years.

Hede come another bullshit from N league it was Kiyani who cleared South Wazristan and SWAT and Bannu and other tribal areas there was not much support than and also he didn't wanted to give the message it was done under USA orders
Haha. Indeed the current ISPR dude and Musharraf are pro PML-N to say Kayani was a scared army chief.
 
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I don't know what i'd have done. I don't have classified information on my hand. But based on what is accessible and I've read, I would not have gone in Afghanistan. Soviet was bound to collapse and if Pakistan was to be threatened, there would've been international coalation the same way it was for Korea. Beside, Pakistan was not an easy state to defeat like Afghanistan was. So I'd not have feared for Soviet expansion into Pakistan.

If I had no choice but to go, i'd have made sure that Pakistan stays clean and war happens in Afghanistan. I'd have taken on Afghanistan through Pakistani army, not create militia and train them in Pakistan, bring Ak47 in Pakistan and so forth.


At that time we didn't know we will lose 60,000 lives or have an incompetent COAS like Kayani. Musharraf was absolutely sure Benzair and Nawaz were not to be allowed back.

You cannot compare like this.
Before showing your ignorance read who cleared 90 % of Tribal area before talking shit as always
 
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Ignorant fools will never learn. It is better to ignore the morons for:

Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience.”

Even though here is no question of experience or dragging down but arguing with such fools is utter waste of time.
 
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Before showing your ignorance read who cleared 90 % of Tribal area before talking shit as always
Oh he cleared 90% tribal areas? Then who are we fighting today? The 10%?

Did you manage to read the article? Musharraf clearly states that Kayani went into action due to Taliban coming close to the capital and it became a major concern across the world.

Anyway, I know you're a military guy and one who wants sharia law in Pakistan and are very religious. Pointless to argue with you, especially when you failed to read the article.
 
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Oh we cleared 90% tribal areas? Then wwho are we fighting today? The 10%?

Did you manage to read the article? Musharraf clearly states that Kayani went into action due to Taliban coming close to the capital and it became a major concern across the world.
Yes the 10 % other parts were all cleared massive development also done there only NW was left
 
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I don't know what i'd have done. I don't have classified information on my hand.

So you see it is easy for you without classified information to court martial Kiyani.

At that time we didn't know we will lose 60,000 lives or have an incompetent COAS like Kayani./QUOTE]

We did not know or we knowingly were willing to sacrifice our National interest and our lives for someone else?

Musharraf was absolutely sure Benzair and Nawaz were not to be allowed back.
You cannot compare like this.



Yeah Musharraf made sure that does not happen by striking a deal under NRO
 
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Yes the 10 % other parts were all cleared massive development also done there only NW was left
Yup. We're fighting the tribal zombies now. Since you say Kayani had cleared Pakistan from the filth.

USA, Musharraf, ISPR and so on are all liars, pro PML-N to say Kayani was scared and didn't take much action.

Anyways, done with you.

So you see it is easy for you without classified information to court martial Kiyani.
I was talking about someone else and about something else. Learn to read.

And my God, are you a literate person? Am I court martialing Kayani? That's the job of army. And we've the classified knowledge that was not available before. This is coming from within army, ex army chief and current ISPR, saying kayani was scared and delayed the operation.

For second part, that was my point. He was absolutely sure Nawaz and Benazir would not come back. But things change. Just as Musharraf did not know they'll come back, he did not know that accepting US war on terror offer will result in 60,000 deaths. Mind you, majority of those deaths occurred during the time of Kayani.
 
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Yup. We're fighting the tribal zombies now. Since you say Kayani had cleared Pakistan from the filth.

USA, Musharraf, ISPR and so on are all liars, pro PML-N to say Kayani was scared and didn't take much action.

Anyways, done with you.


I was talking about someone else and about something else. Learn to read.

And my God, are you a literate person? Am I court martialing Kayani?
O Mr ignorant several agencies bigger than NW were in control of Taliban were all cleared under Kiyani Mr so get your facts right
 
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I was talking about someone else and about something else. Learn to read.

Okay after suggesting court martial of Kiyani without you having access to classified information, you come up with the best of your argument to tell me that I cannot read?

Okay wise educated sophisticated one you win, get Kiyani court martialed if you have balls.
 
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To make a major strategy decision you need broad consensus......unlike before, there is greater consensus now regarding how we combat militancy. I think in HINDSIGHT not enough was done previously especially after attack on GHQ and the back-stabbing by groups like TNSM which bombed girls schools (after the so-called "peace talks" and "cease fire" in 2008).

MY honest assessment:

Pros

-He placed huge emphasis on troops morale and on investing more on the soldiers (new uniforms, combat gear/equipment, modernization etc). Under his watch the Pakistani Army truly became a modernized and formidable fighting force.

-He was a soldier's soldier.....during Eid he would be with troops, not with family. During Rah e Nejat operation he flew in an F16 to oversee the insurgency hit areas with his own eyes (few Army Chiefs would do that)

-Supported strong institutions/democracy and political maturity, helped be a mediator when the civilians were busy being azzholes with their vendettas

-Was a reserved and calculated person....not very vocal, listened to views of others but didnt speak too much (also a con?)

Cons

-Took over an Army which until early/mid 2010 was not fully experienced enough to deal fully with counter-insurgency (as opposed to conventional war) -though this changed rather quickly through good leadership at all command levels

-Preferring to hear others talk while being quiet and chain-smoking rather than being overly vocal could be Interpreted by some as a sign of passiveness. This is up for interpretation.

-Had to deal with several 'distractions' which made his job much harder (e.g. GHQ attack, Abbotabad incident, murder of Pakistani troops @ Salala, Gayari avalanche, Major floods in 2010 etc.)
 
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Was it Musharaf, or someone whose name sounded exactly like him, who said all decisions are taken by core commanders. even his emergency decision.
 
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Okay after suggesting court martial of Kiyani without you having access to classified information, you come up with the best of your argument to tell me that I cannot read?

Okay wise educated sophisticated one you win, get Kiyani court martialed if you have balls.
LOL

Still an illiterate person. I am not the one in power to court martial.

And do you have classified information or anyone within army saying Kayani was not scared? I've given the articles. What have you given? Nothing. So exactly, you cannot read. Go and learn to read, then come back and read the Musharraf and ISPR has to say about Kayani.

And again, learn a bit of common knowledge to know that someone like me cannot go and get Kayani court martialed. And please don't tell me you hope to see Kayani leading the country, because the way you're coming off here defending his incompetency.
 
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