Kaveri Engine Project update

[sancho]

In fact Sancho still believe that LCA is just a prototype or tech demonstrator. ppl like him believe that LCA must be dropped and AMCA will be given focus.

LCA is just available as prototypes so far, but I never said LCA must be dropped for AMCA (at least not for IAF), just the other way!
I am simply not blind enough to take any PR show up of ADA or DRDO as a success, only because they are developing things indigenously. When it comes to the security of our nation, I prefer capable foreign arms and techs (at best co-developed), over low capable, failed, or delayed indigenous projects.

Making Engine is not easy job, and what if it is under power??? Rafael use underpower engine, like wise many fighter plane fly on underpower engine for there first batch.

Making an engine is not easy at all and the decision to do that wasn't wrong, but the decision to do it alone without foreign help, just like the decision to let GTRE develop it, instead of HAL (that already had some experience in that field) were simply stupid ideas.
The last part simply shows a big lack of knowledge, LCA has a TWR with GE 404 engine below 1, so below the initial plans. Rafale has a TWR above 1 and beat nearly all 4th gen fighters in dogfights and proved itself even against the F22. All this would not be possible if the Rafale would be underpowered, but one has to look at the thrust of the engine in relation to the weight of the fighter to understand that!

Unless we test it how can we learn???

Testing is not an issue, that's what we are doing with LCA and N-LCA prototypes for years and even the Kaveri engine is undergoing tests on IL 76. But getting things done and field it into operational service are the key issues!

 

[praveen007]

First phase Kaveri Engine trial encouraging
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First phase Kaveri Engine trial encouraging | idrw.org
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While the delay in the completion of the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA) was lamented by the armed forces, the developers of the Kaveri Engine stated that the tests of the same was encouraging. Interacting with media persons after the celebrations of the Defence Avionics Research Establishment (DARE), Scientific Advisor to the Defence Minister, V K Saraswat said that the first phase of the flight evaluations on board, the IL-76 aircraft was successful. He added that Phase II would start once the specific modification was done. Commenting on the delay of the protoypes of LCA, both navy and air force versions, he said, “It is a step beyond prototypes. So we should not look at few months of delay very seriously.” He added the LCA Navy should fly in a month. He shared that the taxi trials were underway and said that they had to ensure the systems and equipment of the two versions were working.

 

[PEACEMAKER2010]

 

[praveen007]

Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension - SP's Aviation
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Kaveri turbofan programme seeks extension .
By SP's Special Correspondent
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February 17, 2012 : The Kaveri turbofan engine programme has asked the government for an extension and more funds to overcome a fresh set of technological hurdles that have cropped up in the latest phase of flight tests. According to top sources, the extension involves at least 120 hours of additional flight testing. Interestingly, while the Kaveri is currently being flight-tested on a specially kitted out Ilyushin-76 engine test bed
aircraft at the Gromov institute in Russia, the Kaveri extension programme envisages flight testing on a modified Tejas airframe, or similar aircraft. An official familiar with the extension proposal says one of the early prototype vehicle of the Tejas, which haven't been flying for years, could be modified to fly with the Kaveri engine.
As things stand, the Kaveri has completed close to 60 hours of flight-testing at the Gromov institute, the highlight of which was the use of a fully indigenous FADEC. However, the flight testing phase has also accentuated the engine's fundamental problems that have kept it in development for so long. Adding to a littany of woes, compounded by overall insufficient performance parameters, are problems in the turbine and fan assemblies, possibly structural issues as well. The IAF and Navy don't want to fly with an engine that puts out anything less than 90kN with reheat at sea-level — the Kaveri falls well short of that figure, and is the principle reason why the IAF and Navy have both gone in for GE engines on all foreseeable deliveries of the Tejas Mk.1 and Mk.2.
The IAF, predictably, is not happy with progress.
An Air Commodore associated with liaison work on the Kaveri programme says, "The problem is no longer about delays and delivery, but about performance. The Kaveri engine in its present form cannot power fighter jets with modern performance requirements. It can be perhaps modified for other uses, but for fast jet performance, the Kaveri in its present form can be ruled out."
There have also been unforeseen delays in the joint engine effort by DRDO and Snecma for a robust 90kN turbofan engine, based on the M88 ECO core and meeting the minimum performance requirements of the IAF and Navy.
Negotiations on technology sharing and intellectual property have taken the better part of the two years, though a top official confirmed that a contract between DRDO and Snecma is likely to be signed within the year. The joint effort, in effect, calls an end to the Kaveri K9 programme as it stands. What it does is propose to quickly build a 90kN thrust turbofan and offer it off the block to the IAF and Navy for their Tejas Mk.1s.
The Kaveri-Snecma engine, in twin configuration, could also power India's advanced medium combat aircraft (AMCA), though that is still well into the future.
DRDO sources confirm that Snecma will transfer several key technologies as part of the join engine programme, which include single crystal blades, bladed disk and EBPVD (electron beam plasma vapour deposit coating), all critical areas that the Kaveri engine has failed to find solutions to within the country, though not for lack of trying. Programme managers believe single crystal blade technology will be a major solution to one of the Kaveri's biggest problems — deformation of blades during testing as a result of high ambient temperatures. This has proved to be a severe limiting factor, considering that structurally solidified blades have structural integrity that comes nowhere close to single crystal structures. According to sources, it is negotiations over the modalities for single crystal blade technology that has taken so long, though the end is finally in sight. Several DRDO labs and the MDNL have tried for years to create an indigenous SCT solution, but so far without success.
The tie up with Snecma will launch the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) into an all-new league, and will involve modern forging, welding and casting techniques for the first time.
Unlike the Kaveri K9 programme, the K10 programme (the official designation for the proposed effort with Snecma) will be professionally monitored from the outset, with hard timelines and investments. The work share model has been hammered down, and scientists are confident that they have extracted a competitive contract from the French. Initial reservations about sharing certain technologies were ironed out following the slew of military contracts that went France's way, the last being the substantive Mirage 2000 H/TH upgrade programme.
Almost the entire work force that has been dedicated so far to the Kaveri will be diverted to the K10 effort with Snecma. Scientists foresee challenges in absorbing the technology, but are confident that they will achieve goals once the contract is signed and the effort flagged off. A senior GTRE scientist says, "We have the will and the base technologies. We understand fully well what our shortcomings are, and are eager to deliver a full performance engine to the customer.
Gone is the time when we can stay in the lab indefinitely saying we will come up with certain technologies by ourselves. The French will help us cut down on development time. And we will both deliver an engine that will power Indian aircraft. Everybody wins."

 

[sudhir007]

Press Information Bureau English Releases

Project for development of aero-engine "Kaveri" was taken up in 1989 by Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) with a sanctioned cost of Rs.382.81 Cr and Probable Date of Completion (PDC) of 1996. The cost of the project was revised to Rs.2839.00 Cr with PDC of December 2009. Further continuation of Kaveri project beyond the PDC has been approved by the Government within the sanctioned cost and scope.

Although there has been delay in this project due to certain reasons but for the first time Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) ventured to initiate engine development programme and achieved many milestones, like Official Altitude Testing, Phase-I flight trials in the Flying Test Bed, etc. Kaveri (K9) Engine was integrated with IL-76 Aircraft and flight tested for over 55 hours. This flight test envelop covered 12 Km altitude and a speed of 0.7 Mach No. Thus, DRDO demonstrated its technological capability in aero-engine technology. This has been a great achievement in the aerospace community of the country, when the first ever indigenously developed fighter aircraft engine was subjected to flight testing. Tacit knowledge acquired by the DRDO scientists during this project will also be applied for further aerospace technology. Kaveri spin-off engine can be used as propulsion system for Indian Unmanned Strike Air Vehicle (USAV).

The following are delayed CCS projects being carried out by DRDO:-

Projects


Light Combat Aircraft (LCA), Phase-II

December 2008
Rs.3301.75 Cr

December 2012
Rs.5777.53 Cr

Naval Light Combat Aircraft (LCA, Navy), Phase-I

March 2010
Rs.948.90 Cr

December 2014
Rs.1714.98 Cr

Aero-engine Kaveri

December 1996
Rs.383.81 Cr


December 2009*
Rs.2839.00 Cr

Airborne Early Warning & Control (AEW&C) System

October 2011
Rs.1800.00 Cr

March 2014
Rs.2157.00 Cr

Long Range Surface- to-Air Missile (LR- SAM)

May 2011
Rs.2606.02 Cr

December 2015
No revision.



* PDC has been extended within the sanctioned cost and scope.

The following are some of the reasons for delay in completion of the above projects:-

(i) Ab-initio development of the state-of-the-art technologies.

(ii) Technical/technological complexities.

(iii) Non-availability of infrastructure/test facility in the country.

(iv) Non-availability of critical components/equipment/materials and denial of technologies by the technologically advanced countries.

(v) Enhanced user`s requirements or change in specifications during development.

(vi) Increase in the scope of work.

(vii) Non-availability of trained/skilled manpower.

(viii) Extended/long-drawn user trials.

(ix) Failure of some of the components during testing.

(x) Technology Denial Regimes.



The following measures have been taken to complete the ongoing projects without any further delay:-

· Consortium approach has been used for design, development and fabrication of critical components.

· Three-tier project monitoring approach is being followed in the major projects/programmes.

· Project Monitoring Review Committee (PMRC); and Project Appraisal and Review Committee (PARC) meetings are held regularly to monitor the progress of the ongoing projects.

· Concurrent engineering approach has been adopted in technology intensive projects to minimize time-lag between development and productionisation of the systems, and Information Technology and modern management techniques have been applied.

· Encouraging joint funding by users to ensure their commitment towards earliest completion.

· Promoting synergy and better co-ordination among User Services, DRDO and production agencies through cluster meetings.



This information was given by Minister of Defence Shri AK Antony in a written reply to Dr. K.P. Ramalingam and Shri Upendra Kushwaha in Rajya Sabha today.

 

[RPK]

Kaveri Engine
The DRDO has not fixed any time frame to full develop the Kaveri Aero Engine for the LCA, Tejas.LCA, Tejasrequires 90 kN thrust class engine to meet its operational requirement, whereas Kaveri Engine does not fully meet this requirement. Therefore, it has been decided to use variants of Kaveri Engine to power Unmanned Air Vehicle and also for marine applications.

Two important milestones of Kaveri project have been successfully achieved:-

(i) Completion of Official Altitude Testing for 73 hrs at Central Institute of Aviation Motors (CIAM), Russia.

(ii) Flying Test Bed (FTB) trials for 55 hrs with IL-76 Aircraftconducted at Gromov Flight Research Institute (GFRI), Russia.

Endurance testing for about 2100 hrs has been conducted at Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).

It is planned to commence flight trials for Technology Demonstration of Kaveri Engine with LCA Tejas Mk-I in about 3 years time.

This information was given by Minister of Defence Shri A K Antony in a written reply to Shri Bal Kumar Patel in Lok Sabha today.

PK/NN
(Release ID :83706)

 

[Angad_NSA]

Now why 3 years more?

Italian family is enjoying their time in India with congressi crooks.

 

[SpArK]

Now why 3 years more?

Italian family is enjoying their time in India with congressi crooks.

Italian family is making the kaveri???

Must be renamed E La Kaveri

 

[Airway]

Success now our air force

 

[ramu]

Endurance testing for about 2100 hrs has been conducted at Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE).

That is about 88 days ... That engine must be red hot.

 

[Raje amar]

Now why 3 years more?

Italian family is enjoying their time in India with congressi crooks.

dont think otherwise, we definitely need to try and fix the Kavery engine.
We cant relay on imported engines for ever.
Scientists are facing challenges fixing the issues. Take what ever time you need but we need a potent Indigenous engine for our jets.

That is about 88 days ... That engine must be red hot.

its not 88 days continuous,

but total flight hours without repairs or facing any problems.

 

[sudhir007]

Kaveri Engine Project needs Proper Vision | idrw.org

After 26 years after it was authorized to launch a programme to develop an indigenous powerplant for the Light Combat Aircraft. Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE) a DRDO lab . work on Kaveri engine was handed over to GTRE since it had some experience in developing jet engines, and Work on engine design and development began after three years later .

Since then Project had missed countless numbers of deadline not by few years but by decades , but sense prevailed in 2008 when Kaveri engine project was de-linked from Light Combat Aircraft (LCA- Tejas) under strong recommendation from Indian air force and Various panel members, much to appointment of its developers GTRE and DRDO .

But GTRE and DRDO seems to buying time to carry out research on a engine which not only can power any manned aircraft nor unmanned aircraft . Latest flight test carried out in IL-76 test bed in Russia is moving at slow pace and it will require two more years to completely test and validate it flight characters and one more year to integrate with a LCA and complete the research .

Even after been de-linked from LCA , GTRE is adamant keep the whole project some what linked to Lca Tejas , time and time it has been in media speculating of offering Kaveri has a replacement for current Ge 404 engines which currently power Tejas MK-1 , GTRE has planned two Kaveri engine variants one been current engines based on K9+(81.0 kN) prototypes currently in testing phase to replace Tejas MK-1 engines and other Joint Venture (JV) partnership with a french engine manufacturer Snecma named K 10 (93-100 kN) program .

On Kaveri K9+ engine , GTRE wants them to be replacement engines of Tejas MK-1 , but the question is when will all 40 Tejas MK-1 aircraft’s ordered from HAL will be delivered to IAF ?? with current rate of production in HAL not by end of this decade at least , and engine replacement of new delivered Tejas MK-1 wont happen before they have served at-least a decade into Indian air force fleet ,which means whole R&D on Kaveri K9+ engine has to be kept active for another Decade and half ,which in terms of performance in aircraft will be Nil and IAF to is not keen on that , so why is GTRE is pushing for this arrangement is any bodies guess .

On Kaveri K9 + been used on Aura UCAV or other UCAV project is also a short sighted Proposal and nothing concrete . AURA UCAV has per sources will not be any bigger then a IAF HAWKS AJT , which means engines will have to be in 40.0 kN range , even other UCAV project under consideration and development world over will have similar capability engines , so not only GTRE has to develop a Downgraded engines for UCAV based On Kaveri K9 +, but also has to certify and test all its parameters before it can be used in UCAV programs , which is still a decade away from realisation .

On Kaveri K10 Joint Venture (JV) partnership with a french engine manufacturer Snecma was first proposed in 2006 but other then Six years of negotiations , not even a contract has been signed between the two partners yet , and with GE 414IN been purchased for Tejas MK-II , its still not clear which aircraft it will be powering , India’s Development of AMCA is still on papers and final proposal of AMCA is yet to be handed over to Indian air force even when we are approaching mid of 2012 . Kaveri K10 even if it will power AMCA in future Kaveri K10 engine needs to have all the engine requirements as per specification lad out by ASR of IAF on MCA .

Little Clear Vision from MOD and active participation from Indian air force , will keep the whole engine development Program in track , but also keep GTRE which is used to making tall claims in check and strong and effective , hard decisions have to be made in Engine development to make sure every one has a clear vision in its development and avoid the fate which we had to suffer for last decades in this front .

 

[sancho]

Now why 3 years more?

Because they mean the integration of a possible K10, not the K9 which is not useful for LCA.

dont think otherwise, we definitely need to try and fix the Kavery engine.
We cant relay on imported engines for ever.
Scientists are facing challenges fixing the issues. Take what ever time you need but we need a potent Indigenous engine for our jets.

I strongly disagree! We even increased our dependancy on foreign imports, because of the failures and mistakes made during Kaveri/MMR and LCA development. We can't go on and waste more time and money only on the "hope" that they will fix the problems someday. We have delinked Kaveri from LCA, which already was fixing one of the major mistakes of the LCA development and now we aim to use Kaveri on AMCA. If we keep dreaming about fixing it alone, AMCA will face the same delays too, that's why we need the co-development with Snecma.

If you don't know how to do it, ask somebody who knows it, that's the best and fastes way to learn!

 

[Raje amar]

Because they mean the integration of a possible K10, not the K9 which is not useful for LCA.



I strongly disagree! We even increased our dependancy on foreign imports, because of the failures and mistakes made during Kaveri/MMR and LCA development. We can't go on and waste more time and money only on the "hope" that they will fix the problems someday. We have delinked Kaveri from LCA, which already was fixing one of the major mistakes of the LCA development and now we aim to use Kaveri on AMCA. If we keep dreaming about fixing it alone, AMCA will face the same delays too, that's why we need the co-development with Snecma.

If you don't know how to do it, ask somebody who knows it, that's the best and fastes way to learn!

Getting a product & developing a product are 2 different things.
I never denied the requirement of delinking LCA & Kaveri engine project. i surly welcome the selection of F 404 & F414 engine for LCA. the delay in developing Kavery was hurting our defence prepardeness.

But my point is we must have indigenous jet Engine as it is the most important part of the plane. tecnology development realisation is not time bound, it may take few years to decades. you cant be for sure that by some time you will get the desired results. you make it & then check it, you try to improve upon it every time you get the underperformance. but when you get the desired result still you should try to improve up on the new improvements in the product.

 

[sancho]

But my point is we must have indigenous jet Engine as it is the most important part of the plane. tecnology development realisation is not time bound, it may take few years to decades. you cant be for sure that by some time you will get the desired results. you make it & then check it, you try to improve upon it every time you get the underperformance. but when you get the desired result still you should try to improve up on the new improvements in the product.

It's a mistake to think Kaveri is not an indigenous engine, only because we might get the French as a co-development partner. It still is an Indian engine, developed, produced in India and meant for Indian fighters. I am for indigenous developments to, but not to do it alone by wasting a lot of time and money, because we don't have to! We have access to foreign techs and partners, so why are we limiting and putting ourself in disadvantage only to say we made it alone?
I would have prefered LCA MK1 with an French engine, an Israeli radar and Russian weapons, inducted into IAF and replacing older Mig 21s, some years ago, instead of doing it alone with all the delays, cost increases and most importantly, dead pilots that we lost during the Mig crashes. We still would be self reliant because we have inducted an Indian fighter, even if it uses parts from foreign but reliable countries.

This myth about indigenous developments that has to be done alone only and that this is the only way to make us self reliant and improve our scientists really must stop and we must see the reality. Dhruv and Shakti development with European partners improved us, MKI production in India impoved us, Brahmos co-development improved us, MTA and FGFA co-developments will improve us and all this at the top level and without leaving the security of India behind.
LCA and Kaveri developments were the right ways, but the decisions taken in these developments were disastrous and put our industry, just as our airforce years behind other countries. That's what people forget when they see DRDO/ADA celebrating another testflight of another prototype, or the useless testflight of Kaveri in Russia. That means so far we haven't benefitted at all from this, so we have to have the guts to say stop and find other solutions, when these kind of developments are going the wrong ways and don't support them whatsoever.