What's new

Kaveri Engine Project update

I don't know what the IAF is complaining about:

Kaveri:

Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)

Klimov 93 (powers JF-17)

Maximum thrust: 50.0 kN (11,230 lbf) Dry,
Afterburner: 81.3 kN (18,285 lbf)

Am I missing something?

In mid-2004, the Kaveri failed its high-altitude tests in Russia, This unfortunate development led the Indian Ministry of Defence (MoD) to order 40 more IN20 engines in 2005 for the first 20 production aircraft, and to openly appeal for international participation in completing development of the Kaveri. In February 2006, the ADA awarded a contract to SNECMA for technical assistance in working out the Kaveri's problems. At that time, the DRDO had hoped to have the Kaveri engine ready for use on the Tejas by 2009-10.

Kaveri only showed positive progress , as of 2008

But by then The GE-404 engines were already purchased.

next year in 2009
Scientific Advisor to Defence Minister M Natarajan said nearly 90 to 93 per cent of the expected performance had been realised and the government had recently floated an expression of interest to seek partners to move the programme further

And only this year has a full 100% of the engine been realised.

With still some minor weight reduction problems between 50-60 kg

But the IAF has branded both the Ge-404 an underpowered engine .

And asked for a new engine according to these parameters.

Specifications (F414-400)

Data from General Electric
General characteristics
Type: Afterburning turbofan
Length: 154 in (3,912 mm)
Diameter: 35 in (889 mm)
Dry weight:
Components
Compressor: Axial compressor with 3 fan and 7 compressor stages
Turbine: 1 low-pressure and 1 high-pressure stage
Performance
Maximum thrust: 22,000 lbf (98 kN)
Overall pressure ratio: 30:1
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 9:1

Ej-2000
Specifications

Data from Rolls-Royce
General characteristics
Type: Turbofan
Length: 157 inches (4.0 m)
Diameter: 29 inches (0.737 m)
Dry weight: 2,180 lbs (989 kg)
Components
Compressor: 3-stage LP, 5-stage HP
Turbine: 1-stage LP, 1-stage HP
Performance
Maximum thrust: 13,500 lbf (60 kN) dry thrust / 20,000 lbf (90 kN) with reheat
Bypass ratio: 0.4:1
Overall pressure ratio: 26:1
Specific fuel consumption: 21-23 g/kNs dry thrust / 47-49 g/kNs with reheat
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 9.175:1

compared to Kaveri they are better.

Specification (GTX-35VS Kaveri)

General characteristics
Type: Afterburning turbofan
Length: 137.4 in (3490 mm)
Diameter: 35.8 in (910 mm)
Dry weight: 2,427 lb (1,100 kg) [Production model goal: 2,100 lb (950 kg)]
Components
Compressor: two-spool, with low-pressure (LP) and high-pressure (HP) axial compressors:
LP compressor with 3 fan stages and transonic blading
HP compressor with 6 stages, including variable inlet guide vanes and first two stators
Combustors: annular, with dump diffuser and air-blast fuel atomisers
Turbine: 1 LP stage and 1 HP stage
Performance
Maximum thrust:
Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)
Specific fuel consumption:
Military thrust: 0.78 lb/(lbf•h) (79.52 kg/(kN·h))
Full afterburner: 2.03 lb/(lbf•h) (207.00 kg/(kN·h))
Thrust-to-weight ratio: 7.8:1 (76.0 N/kg)

If it had been ready earlier it may have seen more use but , sadly it's to late to catch the Tejas.

May be in latter Upgrades of the Tejas , a new Kaveri upgraded engine may be use but for now .

In September 2008, it was announced that the Kaveri would not be ready in time for the Tejas, and that an in-production powerplant would have to selected. Development of the Kaveri by the GTRE would continue for other future applications.

The DRDO, however, currently hopes to have the Kaveri engine ready for use on the Tejas by 2009-10. but according to latest news still research on it is going on and date to complete its research has been extended to 2011-2012.
 
I don't know what the IAF is complaining about:

Kaveri:

Military thrust (throttled):11,687 lbf (52.0 kN)
Full afterburner:18,210 lbf (81.0 kN)

Klimov 93 (powers JF-17)

Maximum thrust: 50.0 kN (11,230 lbf) Dry,
Afterburner: 81.3 kN (18,285 lbf)

Am I missing something?

Thrust is definitely not the problem with engine right now. Its the reliability of the engine. We know the thrust it produces with its afterburners but we don't know how long it can sustain its afterburners. Also we don't know the endurance without afterburners too. The fuel it consumes per thrust, the rate of acceleration, minimum thrusts sustainable, effects of altitude on the engine thrust, thermal signature, thermal envelope, life of the engine etc etc, there are hundreds of issues with an engine, when all these get sorted out, only then we can think of installing these in our fighter.
 
Angle of Attack: Kaveri Update

It seems like India's troubled jet engine program "Kaveri" is finally making some progress but the pace is still slow. Defense Minister AK Antony recently made comments on the engine in parliament. Meanwhile the efforts to install the Kaveri of a LCA seems to have been delayed.
In the parliament Defense Minister AK Antony said that there are issues with the weight of the Kaveri. Its more than 150 kgs heavy than planned and the performance of the engine has not reached 100% but is very near it. However the good news is that the tendency to throw blades is now rectified and the engine is safe. Another good news is that the engine sent to Russia for high altitude testing on-board a test bed has completed more than 100 hrs of "successful" testing. This brings the total testing hours close to the 2000 hrs mark.
However there are no plans to use the engine on-board the LCA and there is a very high possibility that the Kaveri Mk-2 would be reduced to just a technology demonstrator. However one LCA will definitely be powered by it and in future may be some UAV's and small naval vessels. The Japanese are also looking at the Kaveri to power their Stealth fighter prototypes but its highly unlikely that it would be chosen.
 
Angle of Attack: Kaveri Update

GTX-35VS_Kaveri.jpg


It seems like India's troubled jet engine program "Kaveri" is finally making some progress but the pace is still slow. Defense Minister AK Antony recently made comments on the engine in parliament. Meanwhile the efforts to install the Kaveri of a LCA seems to have been delayed.
In the parliament Defense Minister AK Antony said that there are issues with the weight of the Kaveri. Its more than 150 kgs heavy than planned and the performance of the engine has not reached 100% but is very near it. However the good news is that the tendency to throw blades is now rectified and the engine is safe. Another good news is that the engine sent to Russia for high altitude testing on-board a test bed has completed more than 100 hrs of "successful" testing. This brings the total testing hours close to the 2000 hrs mark.
However there are no plans to use the engine on-board the LCA and there is a very high possibility that the Kaveri Mk-2 would be reduced to just a technology demonstrator. However one LCA will definitely be powered by it and in future may be some UAV's and small naval vessels. The Japanese are also looking at the Kaveri to power their Stealth fighter prototypes but its highly unlikely that it would be chosen.
 
Angle of Attack: Kaveri Update

It seems like India's troubled jet engine program "Kaveri" is finally making some progress but the pace is still slow. Defense Minister AK Antony recently made comments on the engine in parliament. Meanwhile the efforts to install the Kaveri of a LCA seems to have been delayed.
In the parliament Defense Minister AK Antony said that there are issues with the weight of the Kaveri. Its more than 150 kgs heavy than planned and the performance of the engine has not reached 100% but is very near it. However the good news is that the tendency to throw blades is now rectified and the engine is safe. Another good news is that the engine sent to Russia for high altitude testing on-board a test bed has completed more than 100 hrs of "successful" testing. This brings the total testing hours close to the 2000 hrs mark.
However there are no plans to use the engine on-board the LCA and there is a very high possibility that the Kaveri Mk-2 would be reduced to just a technology demonstrator. However one LCA will definitely be powered by it and in future may be some UAV's and small naval vessels. The Japanese are also looking at the Kaveri to power their Stealth fighter prototypes but its highly unlikely that it would be chosen.

Japan has much batter options i.e. US and EU
 
Kaveri nozzle CAD animation....


Source: Shiv Aroor
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi June 28, 2010, 0:46 IST

IAF feels DRDO fronting for French engine, citing ‘joint development’.

India’s Tejas light fighter is failing to meet performance targets, largely because of an underpowered engine. And, the Indian Air Force (IAF) believes the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is actively stalling the process of choosing a new engine.

A furious IAF, which urgently needs the Tejas to replace its retiring MiG-21 squadrons, has complained in writing to the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The IAF report says that even as the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA — which oversees the Tejas programme — is choosing between two powerful, modern engines from the global market, the DRDO has confused the issue by throwing up a third option: An offer to resurrect its failed Kaveri engine programme, this time in partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma.

The IAF report, currently with the highest levels of the MoD, makes two points. First, since the DRDO has been unable, for over two decades, to deliver a Kaveri engine that can power the Tejas, the ongoing procurement — of either the General Electric (GE) F-414, or the Eurojet EJ200 engine — should go ahead.

The IAF’s second objection is even more damning for the DRDO: Snecma, the IAF charges, has already developed the heart of the engine it is offering, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter. The DRDO, therefore, will not co-develop the engine, but merely provide Snecma with an indigenous stamp. In reality, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that has laboured for decades on the Kaveri, will hardly participate in any “joint development”.

Further, says a top IAF source, a Kaveri engine based on Snecma’s new core will leave the Tejas short of performance, providing barely 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust. In contrast, the GE and Eurojet engines already short-listed for selection provide 90-96 KN, a significant advantage. The source says sneaking in the underpowered Kaveri-Snecma engine through the GTRE back door will damage the LCA project.

For the IAF, the performance of the new engine is crucial. It has agreed to accept the Tejas into service as soon as the fighter obtains its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December, even though the Tejas does not yet fly, climb, turn or accelerate fast enough. The IAF’s accommodation is based on a promise from the ADA that a new, more powerful engine will overcome all the Tejas’ current performance shortfalls.

Senior IAF officers explain that the DRDO needs the Tejas project to endorse the Kaveri-Snecma engine because Snecma insists on a minimum assured order of 300 engines as a precondition for partnering GTRE in “joint development”. Since India’s futuristic Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) — the other potential user of a Kaveri-Snecma engine — has not yet been sanctioned, only the Tejas programme, with some 120-140 fighters planned, provides the numbers needed for satisfying Snecma.

The IAF will buy two squadrons (42 fighters) of Tejas Mark 1, which use older GE F-404 engines. In addition, five squadrons (110 fighters) of Tejas Mark 2 are planned, which will be powered by a new engine. Given that each Tejas could go through 2-3 engines during its lifetime, the LCA Mk 2 will actually need 200-300 of the new engines.

Contacted by Business Standard, the DRDO declined to comment on the subject.

Business Standard has already reported (December 12, 2009, “Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters”) that the MoD is backing Kaveri-Snecma as a new engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). That report was corroborated on May 13 by Defence Minister A K Antony, who told Parliament that the Kaveri “requires to be optimised for lower weight and higher performance so that it can be used for the Tejas and possibly for Indian next generation combat Aircraft.”

But there are mixed signals from the establishment. In the same statement, Antony also talked about the possibility of engine import. And the ADA chief, P S Subramaniam, has told Business Standard: “There are many Tejas already flying that will soon need new engines and we will use the Kaveri-Snecma engines for those. The Tejas Mark 2 will be powered by either GE F-414 or the EJ200.”

According to ADA sources, both the GE and Eurojet engines have fully met the technical requirements for the Tejas Mk 2. The Eurojet EJ200 is the more modern, lighter, flexible engine and has impressed the IAF. The GE F-414 is significantly heavier, but provides more power. The Indian tender for 99 engines (plus options) demands that all engines after the first 10 be built in India.

http://www.business-standard.com/india/news/air-force-says-drdo-stalling-tejas-fighter-engine/399639/
 
Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine
Ajai Shukla / New Delhi June 28, 2010, 0:46 IST

IAF feels DRDO fronting for French engine, citing ‘joint development’.

India’s Tejas light fighter is failing to meet performance targets, largely because of an underpowered engine. And, the Indian Air Force (IAF) believes the Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is actively stalling the process of choosing a new engine.

A furious IAF, which urgently needs the Tejas to replace its retiring MiG-21 squadrons, has complained in writing to the Ministry of Defence (MoD). The IAF report says that even as the Aeronautical Development Agency, or ADA — which oversees the Tejas programme — is choosing between two powerful, modern engines from the global market, the DRDO has confused the issue by throwing up a third option: An offer to resurrect its failed Kaveri engine programme, this time in partnership with French engine-maker, Snecma.

The IAF report, currently with the highest levels of the MoD, makes two points. First, since the DRDO has been unable, for over two decades, to deliver a Kaveri engine that can power the Tejas, the ongoing procurement — of either the General Electric (GE) F-414, or the Eurojet EJ200 engine — should go ahead.

The IAF’s second objection is even more damning for the DRDO: Snecma, the IAF charges, has already developed the heart of the engine it is offering, an uprated derivative of the M88-2 engine that powers the French Rafale fighter. The DRDO, therefore, will not co-develop the engine, but merely provide Snecma with an indigenous stamp. In reality, the Gas Turbine Research Establishment (GTRE), the DRDO laboratory that has laboured for decades on the Kaveri, will hardly participate in any “joint development”.

Further, says a top IAF source, a Kaveri engine based on Snecma’s new core will leave the Tejas short of performance, providing barely 83-85 Kilonewtons (KN) of maximum thrust. In contrast, the GE and Eurojet engines already short-listed for selection provide 90-96 KN, a significant advantage. The source says sneaking in the underpowered Kaveri-Snecma engine through the GTRE back door will damage the LCA project.

For the IAF, the performance of the new engine is crucial. It has agreed to accept the Tejas into service as soon as the fighter obtains its Initial Operational Clearance (IOC) in December, even though the Tejas does not yet fly, climb, turn or accelerate fast enough. The IAF’s accommodation is based on a promise from the ADA that a new, more powerful engine will overcome all the Tejas’ current performance shortfalls.

Senior IAF officers explain that the DRDO needs the Tejas project to endorse the Kaveri-Snecma engine because Snecma insists on a minimum assured order of 300 engines as a precondition for partnering GTRE in “joint development”. Since India’s futuristic Medium Combat Aircraft (MCA) — the other potential user of a Kaveri-Snecma engine — has not yet been sanctioned, only the Tejas programme, with some 120-140 fighters planned, provides the numbers needed for satisfying Snecma.

The IAF will buy two squadrons (42 fighters) of Tejas Mark 1, which use older GE F-404 engines. In addition, five squadrons (110 fighters) of Tejas Mark 2 are planned, which will be powered by a new engine. Given that each Tejas could go through 2-3 engines during its lifetime, the LCA Mk 2 will actually need 200-300 of the new engines.

Contacted by Business Standard, the DRDO declined to comment on the subject.

Business Standard has already reported (December 12, 2009, “Kaveri engine comes alive; will power Indian fighters”) that the MoD is backing Kaveri-Snecma as a new engine for the Light Combat Aircraft (LCA). That report was corroborated on May 13 by Defence Minister A K Antony, who told Parliament that the Kaveri “requires to be optimised for lower weight and higher performance so that it can be used for the Tejas and possibly for Indian next generation combat Aircraft.”

But there are mixed signals from the establishment. In the same statement, Antony also talked about the possibility of engine import. And the ADA chief, P S Subramaniam, has told Business Standard: “There are many Tejas already flying that will soon need new engines and we will use the Kaveri-Snecma engines for those. The Tejas Mark 2 will be powered by either GE F-414 or the EJ200.”

According to ADA sources, both the GE and Eurojet engines have fully met the technical requirements for the Tejas Mk 2. The Eurojet EJ200 is the more modern, lighter, flexible engine and has impressed the IAF. The GE F-414 is significantly heavier, but provides more power. The Indian tender for 99 engines (plus options) demands that all engines after the first 10 be built in India.

Air Force says DRDO stalling Tejas fighter engine

Hi, Ironman

Wouldn't it be a good idea to use this engine procurement, to combine it for a co-developed Kaveri engine. I mean, we buy 100 EJ 200 with 90kN and team up with them for a Kaveri-EJ engine for 100, or more kN. These could be used in later LCA versions, or even in AMCAs too.
The EJ 200 is reported to have the potential for a 100kN, or even up to 120kN improvment and they even offered us 3D TVC. They have only limited money to fund these developents, so if we team up with them, wouldn't it be useful for their engine, as well as ours?
 
Hi, Ironman

Wouldn't it be a good idea to use this engine procurement, to combine it for a co-developed Kaveri engine. I mean, we buy 100 EJ 200 with 90kN and team up with them for a Kaveri-EJ engine for 100, or more kN. These could be used in later LCA versions, or even in AMCAs too.
The EJ 200 is reported to have the potential for a 100kN, or even up to 120kN improvment and they even offered us 3D TVC. They have only limited money to fund these developents, so if we team up with them, wouldn't it be useful for their engine, as well as ours?

The idea is quite inspiring but is somebody listening ?
:cheers:
 
Hi, Ironman

Wouldn't it be a good idea to use this engine procurement, to combine it for a co-developed Kaveri engine. I mean, we buy 100 EJ 200 with 90kN and team up with them for a Kaveri-EJ engine for 100, or more kN. These could be used in later LCA versions, or even in AMCAs too.
The EJ 200 is reported to have the potential for a 100kN, or even up to 120kN improvment and they even offered us 3D TVC. They have only limited money to fund these developents, so if we team up with them, wouldn't it be useful for their engine, as well as ours?

The bold part is I don't agree. They already developed a cutting edge tech engine so they actually don't need huge amt of money to future developments Coz all other elements and technology of an engine already exists there,then future development costs will lesser.Am I?
 
Hi, Ironman

Wouldn't it be a good idea to use this engine procurement, to combine it for a co-developed Kaveri engine. I mean, we buy 100 EJ 200 with 90kN and team up with them for a Kaveri-EJ engine for 100, or more kN. These could be used in later LCA versions, or even in AMCAs too.
The EJ 200 is reported to have the potential for a 100kN, or even up to 120kN improvment and they even offered us 3D TVC. They have only limited money to fund these developents, so if we team up with them, wouldn't it be useful for their engine, as well as ours?


Forget KAVER-EJ ..its already Kaveri-SCHNEMA ...
And EJ and GE have alreday made it claer that they will not share anu crucial techs. with us..

The only way Kaveri can be used is in AMCA ..that too if it achieves ~95 KN thrust beacause of AMCA being a double engined plane..

If LCA is to be inducted it has to be using PHOREN engine..
 
Forget KAVER-EJ ..its already Kaveri-SCHNEMA ...
And EJ and GE have alreday made it claer that they will not share anu crucial techs. with us..

The only way Kaveri can be used is in AMCA ..that too if it achieves ~95 KN thrust beacause of AMCA being a double engined plane..

If LCA is to be inducted it has to be using PHOREN engine..

I dnt think the contract sign yet jv of kaveri-schnema. I think it is good idea to cancel the jv with schnema Ist buy 100 ej-200 and co-develop kaveri-ej for second batch and for future of amca.
 

Country Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom