Kashmir: why talk to India?

[laphroaig]

Drop scene is very near....Thank you Modi

Inshalla Ali. And tathastu for good measure.

 

[dadeechi]

thats the idea, but what if in the process they end up losing a bit of territory? Unlike vajpayee ,modi would certainly would not hold back a military fight. Conventional might of indian armed forces has virtually closed that option. What they want to do is to take it to international audience and make them act.

Pakistan's strategy is this. Cross-posting
=========================================================================================

I do not think Pakistan is fully ready today. You need strong naval presence to protect your sea lanes. That should happen once Chinese naval presence in Gwadar completed. Chinese Navy would keep the Indian Navy at bay, Chinese Army would protect the strategic installations in defensive mode while Pakistan's Army would go full throttle to capture Kashmir and any counter offensive from India Army to recapture Kashmir would be fought with NASR being used on India mainland and to maintain the status quo.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/1-100km-trench-built-alongside-pak-afghan-border-in-balochistan.435661/page-5#ixzz4I1VMD6sV

 

[A_Poster]

like mumbai (26/11)??????What if india retaliates and targets oh i don't know hospitals, schools and markets??? What will pak do then? hypothetically speaking ofcourse.

What it India shells Lahore to a rubble?

These Pakistanis do not understand that India does not need nukes to bomb them to stone age. Each and every city of theirs is within artillery (tube or rocket) range, and if incessant targeting of civilians become a norm, there won't be anything left in Pakistan.

For example: If taking hints from Arshad Mahmood's post, some Pakistani general send terrorists in Mumbai, Bengaluru, or Delhi. What would India do?

(1) Do nothing, and hammer Pakistan on international forums painting it as terrorist state and get UN sanctions against it.

(2) Suppose it is not done ,say due to Chinese shielding Pakistan. Then use rocket artillery and aircrafts to target their power plants, and infrastructure. Off course world would appeal for calm, but since Pakistanis have struck first, it would be Pakistan on whom onus of calming down would be. We even need not go to full war. Just target some power plant and adopt defensive posture. If Pakistan wants to reciprocate, let it attack and see its military evaporate.

Conventional superiority is such a nice thing to have. A country with conventional superiority could dictate tempo of conflict. Pakistan just need to make targeting of civilians, kosher.

And what if they hit back in your own CPEC projects?


You forgot CPEC! these days they worry about CPEC more than their kids.

And poor CPEC too. Again within artillery range and on very unstable geology.

Pakistan is smelling the blood and would go for the kill this time. Rematch of 1971 set for 2018.

For that they would need much stronger than their current pathetic military, else it would be one sided slaughter in Air and Sea, and one sided slaughter on land after their Air-supremacy is gained.

Only morons would believe that redesigned Mig-21s (Called JF-17 from J-7) have a chance against MKI, Mig29s, or Mirage2000s.

thats the idea, but what if in the process they end up losing a bit of territory? Unlike vajpayee ,modi would certainly would not hold back a military fight. Conventional might of indian armed forces has virtually closed that option. What they want to do is to take it to international audience and make them act.

The problem with that is that there is less than Zero sympathy for Muslims anywhere in the world ,except in Muslim countries,and Muslim countries opinion does not count for anything as all of them are exclusive resource exporters, and are in turmoil while oil prices have been driven into the ground. They could not even impose oil embargo.

+ What India is doing (using pellet guns) is considered legal and just in all countries.

+Western civilian population is thirsting for Muslim blood, and their elites have too much riding on India's economy.

 

[Indika]

Pakistan's strategy is this. Cross-posting
=========================================================================================

I do not think Pakistan is fully ready today. You need strong naval presence to protect your sea lanes. That should happen once Chinese naval presence in Gwadar completed. Chinese Navy would keep the Indian Navy at bay, Chinese Army would protect the strategic installations in defensive mode while Pakistan's Army would go full throttle to capture Kashmir and any counter offensive from India Army to recapture Kashmir would be fought with NASR being used on India mainland and to maintain the status quo.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/1-100km-trench-built-alongside-pak-afghan-border-in-balochistan.435661/page-5#ixzz4I1VMD6sV

NASR will just be an invitation to India to go full blast. The chinese being far away from mainland wont last long. Even US needs a strong stretched supply chain to fight wars. chinese wont interfere in our fight and get their nose bloodied.

 

[Deepika Maheshwari]

For example: If taking hints from Arshad Mahmood's post, some Pakistani general send terrorists in Mumbai, Bengaluru, or Delhi. What would India do?

(1) Do nothing, and hammer Pakistan on international forums painting it as terrorist state and get UN sanctions against it.

(2) Suppose it is not done ,say due to Chinese shielding Pakistan. Then use rocket artillery and aircrafts to target their power plants, and infrastructure. Off course world would appeal for calm, but since Pakistanis have struck first, it would be Pakistan on whom onus of calming down would be. We even need not go to full war. Just target some power plant and adopt defensive posture. If Pakistan wants to reciprocate, let it attack and see its military evaporate.

None of the above I guess. We will simply pay TTP to blow up schools, power plants, Bridges, hospitals etc and may hit gwadar with rockets if the issue further escalates.

 

[A_Poster]

None of the above I guess. We will simply pay TTP to blow up schools, power plants, Bridges, hospitals etc and may hit gwadar with rockets if the issue further escalates.

That should be done irrespective of what Pakistan does.

I am taking about an instance in which Pakistan sends terrorist against India la Mumbai style. In this we could use out victim status to get Pakistan sanctioned like it was done in wake of Mumbai attacks, failing which we could retaliate against their civilian infrastructure. We can hit theirs conventionally, they can't hit ours.

 

[AnnoyingOrange]

FOLLOWING the extensive discussions at the recent Pakistan envoys’ conference, Pakistan proposed a ‘separate’ dialogue on Jammu and Kashmir to India.

As expected, India promptly interposed preconditions for the talks, even more onerous than in the past. Pakistan’s counter — that the talks would be strictly on the basis of the UN resolutions on Kashmir — indicates that the proposal for talks was largely a tactical move to expose India’s obduracy.

It would have been unseemly to hold talks with India when it has just killed over 70 Kashmiris like Burhan Wani and blinded hundreds, including small children, and is continuing with its campaign of oppression. A ‘separate’ dialogue on Kashmir will not stop India’s repression. On the contrary, talks would have enabled India to deflect world attention from its atrocities by focusing on ‘terrorism’ and could have defused this latest Kashmiri revolt.

During Kashmir’s last major revolt in the 1990s, Pakistan refused talks with India unless it agreed to substantive discussions on the Kashmir dispute. Detailed proposals and counter proposals were exchanged prior to and following the foreign secretary-level talks in 1994. Pakistan called for implementation of the UN resolutions; India obfuscated. But, its foreign secretary indicated a readiness for a solution based on ‘autonomy plus’ (that is, more than provided in Article 370 of the Indian constitution) and ‘independence minus’ (that is, short of full statehood).

Talks with India at this point will not resolve the dispute and could demoralise the Kashmiris.
Obviously, since then, the ‘correlation of forces’ have moved negatively against Pakistan and the Kashmiri people. The Kashmiri freedom struggle was infiltrated and corrupted by India’s intelligence agencies, and then brutally suppressed by its half-a-million-man occupation force. After 9/11, and the attack on the Indian parliament, Pakistan was obliged, under heavy US pressure, to undertake not to allow its territory to be used by ‘terrorists’. As Islamabad’s support to the Kashmiri struggle ended, some ‘jihadist’ groups turned against Pakistan or went ‘rogue’. India now portrays any resistance in Kashmir as terrorism. Its powerful Western allies now accept this equation, enabling India to act with complete impunity in suppressing Kashmiri demands for azadi (freedom).

There is thus no point in talks with India at this time. It will not resolve the dispute; it could demoralise the Kashmiris. There are, however, two objectives which Pakistan can promote to help the Kashmiris; neither requires talks with India.

First, Pakistan should launch a major diplomatic offensive in international forums and the world’s capitals to halt India’s massive human rights violations in occupied Kashmir. Pakistan can call for: international investigations of India’s reported crimes, including the murder of Burhan Wani and blinding of unarmed children; the release of thousands of Kashmiri prisoners; the abrogation of India’s emergency laws; freedom for the Kashmiris to demonstrate peacefully; freedom for Kashmiri leaders to travel abroad and be released from imprisonment or house arrest; provision of medical and material assistance, including from Pakistan, to the suffering Kashmiris; withdrawal of Indian security forces from towns and villages into their cantonments and barracks; repatriation of all the refugees from India-held Kashmir, presently in Pakistan or elsewhere.

To be taken seriously, such demands would have to be translated into official proposals in the relevant international forums, such as the UN Human Rights Council and the General Assembly. Even if such proposals do not command majority support, they would draw world attention to the plight and aspirations of the Kashmiris and oblige Western governments and UN officials to press India to ease its oppression. More importantly, this will reinforce Kashmiri resistance.

Pakistan’s second objective should be to revalidate the legitimacy of the Kashmiri freedom struggle and distinguish this from ‘terrorism’.

There is a substantial body of international law and precedent to establish the legitimacy of the Kashmiri freedom struggle. The right to self determination is a central principle enshrined in the UN Charter. It has been repeatedly reaffirmed as a right of colonised and ‘dependent’ peoples. The Security Council resolutions on Kashmir have called for a plebiscite to enable the Kashmiri people to exercise their right to self-determination.

Further, UN General Assembly Resolution 2649 ( 1970) “affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognised as being entitled to the right of self determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal”. It was explicitly recognised in UN debates that “any means at their disposal”, includes armed struggle. The resolution also “recognises the right” of such peoples “to seek and receive all kinds of moral and material assistance” in the “legitimate exercise of their right to self-determination”. It is not illegal for Pakistan or anyone else to support the freedom struggle of the Kashmiris.

Pakistan should clearly reaffirm this internationally endorsed legal and political position and assert the right to provide both moral and material support to the Kashmiris. At present, such material support could be in various forms: finance for rehabilitation of Kashmiri families uprooted by Indian security forces; help to the Hurriyet for political mobilisation; expenses for the travel of Kashmiri leaders and for Kashmiris seeking medical treatment abroad; scholarships for Kashmiri youth in Pakistani and other educational institutions. Pakistan’s clear and tangible support to the Kashmiri resistance will make it easier for the government to act against outlawed groups which have assumed the mantle of solidarity with the Kashmiri struggle.

Promoting the two objectives outlined here may not immediately change the current balance of power within Kashmir. However, the Kashmiris have displayed extraordinary courage and resilience over the past 70 years in resisting India’s occupation. Today, a third generation of Kashmiris has risen to confront Indian rule. With moral and material support from Pakistan, the Kashmiris can sustain this resistance. Ultimately, like so many other peoples under colonial and alien domination, the Kashmiris will succeed in winning their freedom.

What Pakistan can do is to create the best conditions for the success of their struggle. This requires, for the present, active and bold diplomatic action by Pakistan; not talks with India. A Pakistan-India dialogue will be meaningful only when India comes to the conclusion that it cannot sustain its occupation of Kashmir — politically, militarily and morally.

The writer is a former Pakistan ambassador to the UN.

Published in Dawn, August 21st, 2016
http://www.dawn.com/news/1278902

@django @Zibago @DESERT FIGHTER @war&peace @PaklovesTurkiye

The effort tat Pakistani establishment is putting in to bring India to discussion table shows how desperate they are to talk.. because they understand that the differential between India and Pakistan is growing every day... and very soon India will be in no compulsion to talk to Pakistan... right now..its Pakistan's Compulsion to start a dialog with India and not the other way around... there was a time till about 2006 =when India needed to talk to Pakistan....but things have changed... no talk to another 5 years will shut the door on Pakistan firmly... thats' why Pakistani Diplomatic community is running amock...

 

[AugenBlick]

What it India shells Lahore to a rubble?

These Pakistanis do not understand that India does not need nukes to bomb them to stone age. Each and every city of theirs is within artillery (tube or rocket) range, and if incessant targeting of civilians become a norm, there won't be anything left in Pakistan.

For example: If taking hints from Arshad Mahmood's post, some Pakistani general send terrorists in Mumbai, Bengaluru, or Delhi. What would India do?

(1) Do nothing, and hammer Pakistan on international forums painting it as terrorist state and get UN sanctions against it.

(2) Suppose it is not done ,say due to Chinese shielding Pakistan. Then use rocket artillery and aircrafts to target their power plants, and infrastructure. Off course world would appeal for calm, but since Pakistanis have struck first, it would be Pakistan on whom onus of calming down would be. We even need not go to full war. Just target some power plant and adopt defensive posture. If Pakistan wants to reciprocate, let it attack and see its military evaporate.

Conventional superiority is such a nice thing to have. A country with conventional superiority could dictate tempo of conflict. Pakistan just need to make targeting of civilians, kosher.




And poor CPEC too. Again within artillery range and on very unstable geology.




For that they would need much stronger than their current pathetic military, else it would be one sided slaughter in Air and Sea, and one sided slaughter on land after their Air-supremacy is gained.

Only morons would believe that redesigned Mig-21s (Called JF-17 from J-7) have a chance against MKI, Mig29s, or Mirage2000s.




The problem with that is that there is less than Zero sympathy for Muslims anywhere in the world ,except in Muslim countries,and Muslim countries opinion does not count for anything as all of them are exclusive resource exporters, and are in turmoil while oil prices have been driven into the ground. They could not even impose oil embargo.

+ What India is doing (using pellet guns) is considered legal and just in all countries.

+Western civilian population is thirsting for Muslim blood, and their elites have too much riding on India's economy.

Love your answers .. my thoughts
I think he explicitly meant terrorists. Well two can play that game and I bet more pakistanis will blow them selves up for cash+72hoor than Indians both in absolute and % pop. Look at pakistanis whining about "humanity" on kashmir posts ... oddly enough they won't even acknowledge what they did in BD and are doing to their minority. Anyway they whine not to appeal to us or others(no one believes them except that ErdoGollum ) but for domestic consumption.

Re: Planes
Apart from their rented tactical nukes they have nothing ... let lasers + AI come online by the end of this century ... That advantage will be neutralized too

Re: Muslim Countries
All of them are a drag on the species.. The amount of money + time + energy spent due to islamic terrorism and islamic (muslim vs muslim ) wars saps these resources from other areas like AI, Fusion (ITER that is designed to produce 10x input energy) , Reusable SLVs etc etc. Outside of journalistic and leftist circles , Islamophobia isn't even a theme. The amount of apathy towards the islamic world is shocking.

Re: Pallet Guns
As I stated elsewhere they remove the element of Shaadat while ruining the remainder of life (due to injury and blindness). They are the perfect weapon against these terrorists.

Pakistan's strategy is this. Cross-posting
=========================================================================================

I do not think Pakistan is fully ready today. You need strong naval presence to protect your sea lanes. That should happen once Chinese naval presence in Gwadar completed. Chinese Navy would keep the Indian Navy at bay, Chinese Army would protect the strategic installations in defensive mode while Pakistan's Army would go full throttle to capture Kashmir and any counter offensive from India Army to recapture Kashmir would be fought with NASR being used on India mainland and to maintain the status quo.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/1-100km-trench-built-alongside-pak-afghan-border-in-balochistan.435661/page-5#ixzz4I1VMD6sV

Using similar tactics Pak has won 70 medals in Rio. It's no joke China participated and Pak was testing NASR.

 

[AugenBlick]

The effort tat Pakistani establishment is putting in to bring India to discussion table shows how desperate they are to talk.. because they understand that the differential between India and Pakistan is growing every day... and very soon India will be in no compulsion to talk to Pakistan... right now..its Pakistan's Compulsion to start a dialog with India and not the other way around... there was a time till about 2006 =when India needed to talk to Pakistan....but things have changed... no talk to another 5 years will shut the door on Pakistan firmly... thats' why Pakistani Diplomatic community is running amock...

True and False.

Yes pakistan is concerned that the gap will be too huge, but that does not explain their behaviour. they fundamentally lack long term planning and organization.

Their current behavioral intensity is due to the upcoming NSG and UN meets where they hope to "stop" India.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

And what if they hit back in your own CPEC projects?


You forgot CPEC! these days they worry about CPEC more than their kids.

More than welcum to hit CPEC....bcuz if you'll do that......you'll get the taste of your own medicine from China too.....No?

I thought the first C in CPEC belongs 2 China....

NASR will just be an invitation to India to go full blast. The chinese being far away from mainland wont last long. Even US needs a strong stretched supply chain to fight wars. chinese wont interfere in our fight and get their nose bloodied.

You will only go blast if Pakistan allows you to do.....Pakistan has first strike nuke policy...Your far north western nicoban andaman islands where your nuclear installations are placed...are well within our range....

Don't get much hyped....You r just spectator, nothing less....Your poor soldiers and civilians will suffer. Think about that.

We never hesitated in fight against you despite being outnumbered...When push comes to shove, you will see what Pakistan will do to India. Your RSS government is hated in Pakistan to its core. Pakistanis will beat the crap out of UPPER CASTE indians and elite of RSS and company....the root cause of mess in South Asia

That should be done irrespective of what Pakistan does.

I am taking about an instance in which Pakistan sends terrorist against India la Mumbai style. In this we could use out victim status to get Pakistan sanctioned like it was done in wake of Mumbai attacks, failing which we could retaliate against their civilian infrastructure. We can hit theirs conventionally, they can't hit ours.

Within range work both ways, dumb. You got us covered and we got your *** covered with our sharp and lethal pencils...

 

[Indika]

More than welcum to hit CPEC....bcuz if you'll do that......you'll get the taste of your own medicine from China too.....No?

I thought the first C in CPEC belongs 2 China....



You will only go blast if Pakistan allows you to do.....Pakistan has first strike nuke policy...Your far north western nicoban andaman islands where your nuclear installations are placed...are well within our range....

Don't get much hyped....You r just spectator, nothing less....Your poor soldiers and civilians will suffer. Think about that.

We never hesitated in fight against you despite being outnumbered...When push comes to shove, you will see what Pakistan will do to India. Your RSS government is hated in Pakistan to its core. Pakistanis will beat the crap out of UPPER CASTE indians and elite of RSS and company....the root cause of mess in South Asia



Within range work both ways, dumb. You got us covered and we got your *** covered with our sharp and lethal pencils...

what nonsense . Do you ever think before posting? India has second strike capability using nuke subs which are constantly on the move.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

what nonsense . Do you ever think before posting? India has second strike capability using nuke subs which are constantly on the move.

I do think b4 and after posting comment unlike u....What makes you think Pakistan won't neutralize your "constantly on the move subs" b4 launching fireworks in India...

Read my comment again...I'll say it 4 u again, Indika.....U will only be able to retaliate if Pakistan allows you to do so...

 

[Nilgiri]

What makes you think Pakistan won't neutralize your "constantly on the move subs" b4 launching fireworks in India...

How do you propose to do that? The laughable Pakistan navy?

 

[Pulsar]

There is a substantial body of international law and precedent to establish the legitimacy of the Kashmiri freedom struggle. The right to self determination is a central principle enshrined in the UN Charter. It has been repeatedly reaffirmed as a right of colonised and ‘dependent’ peoples. The Security Council resolutions on Kashmir have called for a plebiscite to enable the Kashmiri people to exercise their right to self-determination.

Source: https://defence.pk/threads/kashmir-why-talk-to-india.445395/#ixzz4I2j3v8Qo

First quit P0K and GB as per the UN Resolutions of 1948. Then talk. Otherwise pipe down.

The international community has seen through the game Pakistan is playing as they are fully aware of what's happening in Balochistan too. Pakistan's double standards and duplicity are beyond bizarre. Thus if Pakistan feels that the international community will fall for Pakistan's shenanigans, they are sadly mistaken.

Secondly, the article in the OP says:

"UN General Assembly Resolution 2649 ( 1970) “affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognised as being entitled to the right of self determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal”. It was explicitly recognised in UN debates that “any means at their disposal”, includes armed struggle. The resolution also “recognises the right” of such peoples “to seek and receive all kinds of moral and material assistance” in the “legitimate exercise of their right to self-determination”. It is not illegal for Pakistan or anyone else to support the freedom struggle of the Kashmiris."

Doesn't that apply to Balochistan too? It was an independent sovereign state which was declared so by not only the British and Jinnah as well, but more importantly by the Balochistan Parliament in Aug 1947 but forcible amalgamated into Pakistan by the Pak Army by forcing the Khan of Kalat to sign the instrument of accession to Pakistan. The Khan had no locus standii to sign it as Independence was approved by the Balochistan Parliament and only they had the authority to amend it.

Thus, the UN General Assembly Resolution 2649 ( 1970) “affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognized as being entitled to the right of self determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal”, which applies to Balochistan too.

Pakistan can't have the cake and eat it too, right? The resolution also “recognises the right” of such peoples “to seek and receive all kinds of moral and material assistance” in the “legitimate exercise of their right to self-determination”. It is thus not illegal for India or anyone else to support the freedom struggle of the Baloch.

QED.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

How do you propose to do that? The laughable Pakistan navy?

U dare not say that........They will do their job one way or another....I m no military expert or defense analyst but "laughable Pakistan navy" was and I believe, still the trend setter in this region. We introduced maritime patrol aircraft in region, after which Indians came to their sensed and realized the need of it and bought P-8 Poseidon (Maritime Patrol Aircraft) from US for Indian navy. We were the one to introduced the first Sub in this region. India, then later joined it..

We were just having less money now. Its been addressed now. For example, we just procured and developed locally the fleet tanker ship with the help of Turk brethren. Men of sea were neglected in the past but not now. I m assuming that either they have the capability to neutralize, many as they can, nuke subs of India or they are just going to have it....We are quite sensitive when it comes to military procurement, no one knows what we r having right now or where do we lack except the navy folks.

Our motivation, determination and courage to inflict pain on enemy is quite healthy and ready to play in any given circumstances. I believe our men of sea are quite professional and are just waiting for orders to get Indians delivered....

First quit P0K and GB as per the UN Resolutions of 1948. Then talk. Otherwise pipe down.

The international community has seen through the game Pakistan is playing as they are fully aware of what's happening in Balochistan too. Pakistan's double standards and duplicity are beyond bizarre. Thus if Pakistan feels that the international community will fall for Pakistan's shenanigans, they are sadly mistaken.

Secondly, the article in the OP says:

"UN General Assembly Resolution 2649 ( 1970) “affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognised as being entitled to the right of self determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal”. It was explicitly recognised in UN debates that “any means at their disposal”, includes armed struggle. The resolution also “recognises the right” of such peoples “to seek and receive all kinds of moral and material assistance” in the “legitimate exercise of their right to self-determination”. It is not illegal for Pakistan or anyone else to support the freedom struggle of the Kashmiris."

Doesn't that apply to Balochistan too? It was an independent sovereign state which was declared so by not only the British and Jinnah as well, but more importantly by the Balochistan Parliament in Aug 1947 but forcible amalgamated into Pakistan by the Pak Army by forcing the Khan of Kalat to sign the instrument of accession to Pakistan. The Khan had no locus standii to sign it as Independence was approved by the Balochistan Parliament and only they had the authority to amend it.

Thus, the UN General Assembly Resolution 2649 ( 1970) “affirms the legitimacy of the struggle of peoples under colonial and alien domination recognized as being entitled to the right of self determination to restore to themselves that right by any means at their disposal”, which applies to Balochistan too.

Pakistan can't have the cake and eat it too, right? The resolution also “recognises the right” of such peoples “to seek and receive all kinds of moral and material assistance” in the “legitimate exercise of their right to self-determination”. It is thus not illegal for India or anyone else to support the freedom struggle of the Baloch.

QED.

If you're thinking u can needle Pak by raising so called "Baluchistan issue"......you're terribly wrong. Pakistan is not that sensitive unlike you. Pakistan, Kashmiris and world won't get distracted and will continue to put light on Kashmir, a real root cause of all bad blood, irrespective of India highlighting Baluchistan just for the sake of argument.