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Kashmir reeling from worst violence since 2010 as 30 killed

As @Joe Shearer has noted, your post was a good summation. Sorry to butt in but one instance of an example is the Machchil 'encounter' and the sentences handed to the Commanding Officer, One Officer, 03 x NCOs and a TA soldier of life imprisonment.

A brief background which may try and exhibit why it was actually a case wherein justice was done. I won't be posting the names of the unit(s) involved for obvious reasons (you can google it), but the issue was a complex one as it was presented as a case where 03 youth from Rafiabad were likely to cross the LC along Machchil nala towards Ringpen Village (Pakistani side) adjacent to Lunda Ridge where the nala enters Pakistani Kashmir. It was impressed upon all concerned that these were fresh recruits for LeT and were crossing over to get weapons and demolition training.

The information was given by 03 members of SOG who presented the information as a 'hard int' and claimed to have definite information about it and wanted Rs 50000 per person as their reward. Since these SOGs were turned militants, the cash incentive was understandable and they claimed that the money would help convince them three youth of their association with the local tanzeem.

They approached one particular infantry unit in Machchil, whose commanding officer declined to act on this information as he was unsure about the veracity of the whole 'Int'. Now you need to understand that only pass opening into Machchil is through Zamindar Khan Gali in Shamshabari overlooking Kupwara town. This pass is manned by security personnel at all times which is composed of army with JK Police personnel of local area stationed there for identification and verification.

The fact that these youth managed to pass into Machchil from an alternative route indicates that there might be some truth to claims that they were planning to cross LC for arms training. However, this is in hindsight and merely speculative.

The concerned unit which was ultimately involved, had completed a successful tenure in the region which is high altitude and one of the most active regions adjacent to Keran, and was in the process of de-induction and was approached by the said trio after being cold shouldered by the infantry unit earlier.

So, the CO and certain close knit confidantes took a call to consider this as an actionable 'Int' and agreed. What transpired is a tale of gross military stupidity which led to the whole case coming to fore. Am sure you can google the salient points of the case as they have been adequately covered by the media.

However, the rumour persisted with 'sources' that indeed the youth were in touch with handlers across the LC and it was an egress from J&K to Kel that was intercepted. But since no one came forward as a witness officially, this holds no water in this case.

The 'encounter' took place in general area due west of Pachnar in Machchil which is heavily forested and is composed of a deep valley with steep inclines surrounding it, rendering quick assault/fast moving operations difficult if not impossible. The concerned unit made the mistake of not alerting surrounding units and teams which is a norm and after the killing claimed an interception of a group. The most glaring aspect of the operation was the absence of any radio 'chatter' associated with any military operation for coordination and control. The unit later tried to pass it off as complete domination of the area requiring no communication, a near impossibility in the terrain.

Why I have given you a brief background is so that you understand that army could have easily made this case into a case wherein there was actionable "INT" and circumstantial "evidence" to carry out a liquidation. However, given the facts as a whole, even the army, after initial jubilation and euphoria of a successful interception, felt that the story was not adding up, especially in the manner the 'Op' was carried out.

That there was a civil hue and cry and pressure of state and central government in aftermath of large scale protests, was immaterial for the army to order a CoI. It were the above facts which did not add up, that made army take a look at the case again and order a CoI.

Sorry, this is a rough note only.




As for your reference to numerous rapes etc etc .. something which the common PDF member keeps perpetuating, am sure you shall agree that the human civil society is not perfect and there are crooks and down right bAstards of all kinds in every society.

Unfortunately, some manage to get power by wearing an uniform. Let me assure you, that the number of people who have been punished for rapes equals the number of rapes actually committed. There is no leniency in that, we can't afford the leniency there.

There is a propensity for women to cry rape as the security forces throw a cordon to search and apprehend militants on intelligence tip offs at ties to stall the forces and permit the militants to escape in the resultant imbroglio. In J&K as we have permitted media coverage, this trick is quite effective in stalling a cordon and search.

Are you aware that the stone pelting is normally an act taken up by school going and college children of 14-24 years and usually after their working hours or after friday prayers? And usually their (school children) mothers will intervene quickly in order to protect them ... at times providing screen for these kids to continue with their acts in which case the CRPF women company takes care of the situation

What the security forces do, is usually ask all women folk to clear out from a place they intend to search, something that is verified by CRPF women constables who are present, and then conduct a search. At no time do the troops enter a house without ensuring all inmates are accounted for outside the house.

The reasons are:

1. It ensures presence of registered and bonafide inhabitants of the village/town as also guests only. This is verified from the master list as also by the headman(in case of a village) personally identifying individuals and their identifying documents, usually an Aadhar Card nowadays.

2. That all citizens are safe in case of a gunfight.

3. That the house can be fired in case there are militants hiding in the house or within the insulated walls with no requirement of room entry.

If rapes were so common, then young girls would not be calling indian soldiers 'hun' (or dog) to their face ... lol

Also, the general Kashmiri has nothing against any army personnel or officer. Unlike what our friends from Pakistan want to believe and indeed perpetuate, the average Kashmiri is fully able to recognise a military personnel and as long as the personnel is in civil clothes and roaming around, he is never touched and is looked after as a guest in the true spirit of Kashmiriyat.

There have been instances wherein an army officer/personnel roaming around as an actual tourist in civil clothes has been warned with good intent of impending civil unrest by the very same people who indulge in it to leave the area in order to be safe. The same people will target the same guy if he is in uniform any other time. It has nothing to do with Indians or Kashmiris but more to do with government and civil population. Sad!

Phenomenal.

Thank you very, very much.

There are some facts that you may want to add sir or perhaps i can try and point them out:
  1. There were reasons for Maharaja citing to stay independent or not getting closer to India initially. The state was over 70% Muslim majority. It was pretty obvious how they would have reacted to Maharaja getting close to India. If you study the events that followed, one may argue that the idea was there from the very start. So when you mention how Maharaja wanted an independent Kashmir perhaps it is appropriate to mention the reasons as well.
  2. The uprisings were common and with the head of state's direction pretty obvious, unrest was bound to happen. Also i hope you have studied the massacre of Muslims in those very same areas and surroundings preceding that uprising. Reason enough may be.
Sir i always stress on how it is important to realize what the problem actually is if we are serious in resolving it. If it is all just a promotional stunt and a feel good activity then i wont say much but if we and our governments are serious is letting all that innocent population of Kashmir live in peace then we will have to admit to some harsh realities that implicates our own wrong doings and those of our elders. 5hit happens, the thing is are we actually looking to get our self out of this mess. I just don't feel it to be fair that myself a Pakistani and you an Indian talk about all these possible decisions about the future of Kashmir while we are not getting them involved in the whole process. Unless we do so the problem will continue and despite all that smoke screen the last two weeks were enough to show that the struggle is far from over and the problem continues and required to be addressed sensibly.

@hassamun i went through your posts, well constructed arguments. Thanks for sharing your views here. @hellfire you have been in this category for some time now. :) Just keep it down a notch (on patriotism as it usually blind one of facts). :) ( not saying that you do so often, you dont!)

Lets try at identifying our mistakes rather than point at those of others. We have tried this for over 50 years to no avail, may be it is time to try a new approach?

@WAJsal @Joe Shearer anyone else up for it? @Levina ? or have you given up all hope? :)


Let me take a little while and put my thoughts in order; there are very deep implications to whatever action whichever nation takes at this point, and I ask you to bear with me while I catch my breath after a tiring day.

However, I would like to mention how one young man, hassamun, by being diligent and conscientous in doing his background work, and a soldier, presenting an honest account (yes, tinged with patriotism; aren't soldiers bred to that?) have raised the whole discussion to be worth your intervention. That itself is a very good thing, and gives me, personally, great hope.

For you, with your broad and humanist views, I would like to suggest a book which has exercised a powerful influence on me in my youth, and perhaps still lingers on: it is Julien Benda's La Trahison des Clercs. In it, he argues that intellectuals have a duty to the world of intellect first, and only secondarily to their national cause. But it is much more complex than that bald summary. Perhaps that influence might explain why some of us (NOT you) find ourselves detested by our own countrymen.

Sad that you do not seem to be learning anything from the recent past/recent history. Being ruthless wont get you anywhere and THE important lessons that you failed to learn.


I hope it just does that and not a general mind set.
For the sake of EVERYONE involved sir.

I feel quite gloomy and am beginning to share VCheng and chauism 's despair. But let us fight as long as we can.
 
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Im just glad that we have started paying them back! more trouble in India is a win-win for Pak and China.
 
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Thank you for your kind comments. I will try to find other sources as well. I'm sure there might have been some atrocities done by the Indian Army to maintain law and order. I haven't heard of any soldier being convicted.

If you disagree with some of my statements then please let me know so that it broadens my knowledge and understanding. All that I have written is not from my own mind but from sources....


Was it Snedden? I seem to recognise it :D Very sound, btw.
 
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Was it Snedden? I seem to recognise it :D Very sound, btw.
Hi,

WHy doesnt Inda provide them with jobs or basic living for that matter, perhaps that could enable them to get off the struggle horse ?
 
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Hi,

WHy doesnt Inda provide them with jobs or basic living for that matter, perhaps that could enable them to get off the struggle horse ?

I feel like weeping. Your question is obviously sincere and well-meaning. Will you permit me to answer it with sincerity and a positive attitude?
 
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I feel like weeping. Your question is obviously sincere and well-meaning. Will you permit me to answer it with sincerity and a positive attitude?
Sure Sire, by all means. Please go-ahead. I m very keen to learn the attributes of the situation that is causing this alarm
 
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Sure Sire, by all means. Please go-ahead. I m very keen to learn the attributes of the situation that is causing this alarm

Thank you. I will give you a detailed reply on this. Let me make sure of my facts by checking a couple of sources first.
 
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Definitely ; WE Hindus have learnt a LOT from History

That is why we have become ruthless when it comes to Kashmir

And the next genrations will read how Kashmiris drove Indian forces nuts. Indian forces were with guns and they were with stones in hands. But they never gave up and fought for their freedom. Finally, they won it. History will also write, so called largest democratic country and its brutality. Since ever Kashmiris are suffering through inhumanity of Indians & fighting for their freedom & never gave up.
 
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Let me take a little while and put my thoughts in order; there are very deep implications to whatever action whichever nation takes at this point, and I ask you to bear with me while I catch my breath after a tiring day.
Sure thing sir. It can wait. I was just sharing my point of view on the two points and though there was a requirement to add a few details to those.

However, I would like to mention how one young man, hassamun, by being diligent and conscientous in doing his background work, and a soldier, presenting an honest account (yes, tinged with patriotism; aren't soldiers bred to that?) have raised the whole discussion to be worth your intervention. That itself is a very good thing, and gives me, personally, great hope.
Yup he have done a good job, despite the earlier troll and flaming posts by various members on this thread i now have some hope of having some good constructive discussion over here. :tup:

For you, with your broad and humanist views, I would like to suggest a book which has exercised a powerful influence on me in my youth, and perhaps still lingers on: it is Julien Benda's La Trahison des Clercs. In it, he argues that intellectuals have a duty to the world of intellect first, and only secondarily to their national cause. But it is much more complex than that bald summary. Perhaps that influence might explain why some of us (NOT you) find ourselves detested by our own countrymen.
Added to my list and will be getting this when i visit the store. In fact, moved it up on the list :P I just hope i get it in English or there are pictorial illustration if its in French :lol:

I feel quite gloomy and am beginning to share VCheng and chauism 's despair. But let us fight as long as we can.
Oh no please, do not get there and no it was not just despair. Perhaps i will share a few points with you on that matter some other time and somewhere else. For us, lets just keep the hopes high and keep trying to bring whatever little change we can. :-)
 
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Sure thing sir. It can wait. I was just sharing my point of view on the two points and though there was a requirement to add a few details to those.


Yup he have done a good job, despite the earlier troll and flaming posts by various members on this thread i now have some hope of having some good constructive discussion over here. :tup:


Added to my list and will be getting this when i visit the store. In fact, moved it up on the list :P I just hope i get it in English or there are pictorial illustration if its in French :lol:


Oh no please, do not get there and no it was not just despair. Perhaps i will share a few points with you on that matter some other time and somewhere else. For us, lets just keep the hopes high and keep trying to bring whatever little change we can. :-)

I just read an exchange between Sinopakfriend and khanz which astonished me. May I request you to take a look when you have a little free time? All of a sudden, it is raining reason, and I do not know what to make of it.

PS: I read Benda in English. If you can wait a bit, once I have cleared older promises, I will try to get a copy to you.
 
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I just read an exchange between Sinopakfriend and khanz which astonished me. May I request you to take a look when you have a little free time? All of a sudden, it is raining reason, and I do not know what to make of it.

PS: I read Benda in English. If you can wait a bit, once I have cleared older promises, I will try to get a copy to you.
Well thanks sir for tagging me there :tup:
The discussion was a treat to read really! :)

And thanks for your offer with the book. You recommending a book is a gift enough already :tup: I will see if i can get the English copy here and if i don't then surely i will bother you with it. Dont really feel shy asking for help when it comes to something informative/knowledgeable. Have quite a few books in my mini-library already and am always on the look for new good ones. (no please don't think that i am that intellectual who have all those gems of philosophy in my rack! Most are just mysteries and fiction or crime novels and History (Islamic specially) but there sure are a few deep ones too and i sure now look forward to adding this book in the list of my collection)
 
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