Kashmir reeling from worst violence since 2010 as 30 killed

[AKD]

First declare the land with state officially through the world recognized body "United Nation". Last time I heard JAMMU & KASHMIR (Indian Occupied Kashir) is DISPUTED TERRITORY.

We will but first you need to give up yoir territory as whole Erstwhile State Of J&K is disputed

 

[Joe Shearer]

First of all, thank you for your patience in writing so much as it must be more than 6 am in India. The following is what I would like you to know which of course can be proven....

The Maharaja decided to stay independent because he expected that the State's Muslims would be unhappy with accession to India, and the Hindus and Sikhs would become vulnerable if he joined Pakistan. As per the Census in 1941, 71% of people in Kashmir were Muslims, more than 90% in some areas.

The violence in the eastern districts of Jammu that started in September 1947, developed into a widespread `massacre' of Muslims around 20 October, organised by the Hindu Dogra troops of the State and perpetrated by the local Hindus, including members of the RSS. The Maharaja himself was implicated in some instances. A team of British observers commissioned by India and Pakistan identified 70,000 Muslims killed, whereas the Azad Kashmir Government claimed that 200,000 Muslims were killed. About 400,000 Muslims fled to West Pakistan, some of whom made their way to the western districts of Poonch and Mirpur, which were undergoing rebellion. Many of these Muslims believed that the Maharaja ordered the killings in Jammu. According to reports these Jammu Muslims joined the uprising in Poonch and the western districts, and instigated the formation of the Azad Kashmir government.

In the north of the state lay Gilgit, which had been leased by British India but returned to the Maharaja shortly before Independence. Gilgit's population did not favour the State's accession to India. Sensing their discontent, Major William Brown, the Maharaja's commander of the Gilgit Scouts, did a coup on 1 November 1947, overthrowing the Governor Ghansara Singh. The bloodless coup d'etat was planned by Brown to the last detail under the code name `Datta Khel.' Gilgit locals formed a provisional government (Aburi Hakoomat), naming Raja Shah Rais Khan as the president and Mirza Hassan Khan as the commander-in-chief. But, Major Brown had already telegraphed Pakistan to take over. Pakistan's Political Agent, Khan Mohammad Alam Khan, arrived on 16 November and took over the administration of Gilgit.

During the 1950s, Indian Prime Minister Jawaharlal Nehru held talks with Pakistan's Prime Minister Muhammad Ali Bogra to sort out the plebiscite issue in Kashmir . The discussions between the two suggest that Nehru had even agreed to appoint a Plebiscite Administrator by April 1954. However, Pakistan then joined the CENTO alliance and India used this as a reason to reject the plebiscite and to cancel the talks. According to Nehru, Pakistan's entry into the CENTO alliance was an expression of Pakistan's insincerity in resolving the issue. However, in May 1955 Nehru held talks with Muhammad Ali Bogra during which he underlined his willingness to solve the Kashmir issue on the basis of a Partition of the state along the cease fire line. Nehru's cable to Krishna Menon in 1957 suggests that he favoured a 'readjustment' of the ceasefire line on strategic and geographic grounds. From the 1950s, India became lukewarm to the idea of a plebiscite and instead adopted the view that the Constituent Assembly of Jammu and Kashmir, which was elected in 1951, had ratified the state's accession to India therefore it was unnecessary to further determine the wishes of the Kashmiri people.

There have been thousands of rapes and murders of civilians done by the Indian Army as per Amnesty International. Yet not even a single person has been charged...

Except for your last line, your post was letter-perfect. You will not understand the feeling of vast relief that some sensible person, not a snotty-nosed whizz-bang school boy, has joined the forum.

WELCOME!

Hope you will participate actively, and contribute the meticulous facts that you have contributed. There are other meticulous reporters, and I will not add to my list of enemies by listing them, and incurring their wrath.

On that last line, Amnesty International is not only wrong but is actively misleading people. It is difficult to make a list of courts martial and judgements handed down and punishment awarded, but it is a formidable list. You can check the veracity of this with @hellfire .

PS: I am not replying to the other comments that appear, as they are addressed to someone else. There are elements with which I disagree, but do not wish to drop in on another conversation.

Pakistan has always said the will of the Kashmiri people must be taken into context. Pakistan's foreign office said this last time a month or so ago.

We are discussing Kashmir here...you can create discussion of other problems by making your own to the topic threads.

Pakistan and India both did not listen to the UN. Pakistan wanted will of the people whereas India just wanted Kashmir regardless....

Thank you for the links. You must realise that there are two sides to any story. One man's terrorist is another man's freedom flighter. As I can comprehend from the links above, this man was a Hero to the Kashmiri people so naturally there is some resentment...

The following from the above Al Jazeera article summarizes the problems:-

Most people in Kashmir have long resented the Indian presence, and support rebel demands for an independent Kashmir or a merging with Pakistan. More than 68,000 people have been killed in the uprising and the subsequent Indian military crackdown in Indian administered Kashmir.

That figure, 68,000 people killed in the uprising and the subsequent Indian military crackdown, is nonsense. Please look up the existing data, which is widely available, since neither Al Jazeera nor Amnesty, whom you have cited elsewhere, does its own homework; it very frequently relies on the worst case scenario projected by those assuming the garb of spokesmen of the victims of a conflict. That is assumed garb, and in the case of Kashmir, there are specific individuals who can best be described as overground members and representatives of the underground.

 

[iPhone]

If this had happened anywhere else in India these indians wouldnot be defending the actions of the police. Civilians getting shot and killed by the army or police anywhere in the world units the people against the authorities.

But this is obviously not the case here. Indians here are proving to everyone that they do not consider the people of Kashmir as their own people. They are proving themselves to be the occupiers of the Kashmir land. And only occupiers open-up on the civilians in the name of maintaining order.

 

[hassamun]

Except for your last line, your post was letter-perfect. You will not understand the feeling of vast relief that some sensible person, not a snotty-nosed whizz-bang school boy, has joined the forum.

WELCOME!

Hope you will participate actively, and contribute the meticulous facts that you have contributed. There are other meticulous reporters, and I will not add to my list of enemies by listing them, and incurring their wrath.

On that last line, Amnesty International is not only wrong but is actively misleading people. It is difficult to make a list of courts martial and judgements handed down and punishment awarded, but it is a formidable list. You can check the veracity of this with @hellfire .

PS: I am not replying to the other comments that appear, as they are addressed to someone else. There are elements with which I disagree, but do not wish to drop in on another conversation.

That figure, 68,000 people killed in the uprising and the subsequent Indian military crackdown, is nonsense. Please look up the existing data, which is widely available, since neither Al Jazeera nor Amnesty, whom you have cited elsewhere, does its own homework; it very frequently relies on the worst case scenario projected by those assuming the garb of spokesmen of the victims of a conflict. That is assumed garb, and in the case of Kashmir, there are specific individuals who can best be described as overground members and representatives of the underground.

Thank you for your kind comments. I will try to find other sources as well. I'm sure there might have been some atrocities done by the Indian Army to maintain law and order. I haven't heard of any soldier being convicted.

If you disagree with some of my statements then please let me know so that it broadens my knowledge and understanding. All that I have written is not from my own mind but from sources....

 

[Established_1965]

Just a doubt.

Does Pakistan claim only Kashmir or all of Jammu, Ladakh and Kashmir??

 

[Hellfire]

Thank you for your kind comments. I will try to find other sources as well. I'm sure there might have been some atrocities done by the Indian Army to maintain law and order. I haven't heard of any soldier being convicted.

If you disagree with some of my statements then please let me know so that it broadens my knowledge and understanding. All that I have written is not from my own mind but from sources....

As @Joe Shearer has noted, your post was a good summation. Sorry to butt in but one instance of an example is the Machchil 'encounter' and the sentences handed to the Commanding Officer, One Officer, 03 x NCOs and a TA soldier of life imprisonment.

A brief background which may try and exhibit why it was actually a case wherein justice was done. I won't be posting the names of the unit(s) involved for obvious reasons (you can google it), but the issue was a complex one as it was presented as a case where 03 youth from Rafiabad were likely to cross the LC along Machchil nala towards Ringpen Village (Pakistani side) adjacent to Lunda Ridge where the nala enters Pakistani Kashmir. It was impressed upon all concerned that these were fresh recruits for LeT and were crossing over to get weapons and demolition training.

The information was given by 03 members of SOG who presented the information as a 'hard int' and claimed to have definite information about it and wanted Rs 50000 per person as their reward. Since these SOGs were turned militants, the cash incentive was understandable and they claimed that the money would help convince them three youth of their association with the local tanzeem.

They approached one particular infantry unit in Machchil, whose commanding officer declined to act on this information as he was unsure about the veracity of the whole 'Int'. Now you need to understand that only pass opening into Machchil is through Zamindar Khan Gali in Shamshabari overlooking Kupwara town. This pass is manned by security personnel at all times which is composed of army with JK Police personnel of local area stationed there for identification and verification.

The fact that these youth managed to pass into Machchil from an alternative route indicates that there might be some truth to claims that they were planning to cross LC for arms training. However, this is in hindsight and merely speculative.

The concerned unit which was ultimately involved, had completed a successful tenure in the region which is high altitude and one of the most active regions adjacent to Keran, and was in the process of de-induction and was approached by the said trio after being cold shouldered by the infantry unit earlier.

So, the CO and certain close knit confidantes took a call to consider this as an actionable 'Int' and agreed. What transpired is a tale of gross military stupidity which led to the whole case coming to fore. Am sure you can google the salient points of the case as they have been adequately covered by the media.

However, the rumour persisted with 'sources' that indeed the youth were in touch with handlers across the LC and it was an egress from J&K to Kel that was intercepted. But since no one came forward as a witness officially, this holds no water in this case.

The 'encounter' took place in general area due west of Pachnar in Machchil which is heavily forested and is composed of a deep valley with steep inclines surrounding it, rendering quick assault/fast moving operations difficult if not impossible. The concerned unit made the mistake of not alerting surrounding units and teams which is a norm and after the killing claimed an interception of a group. The most glaring aspect of the operation was the absence of any radio 'chatter' associated with any military operation for coordination and control. The unit later tried to pass it off as complete domination of the area requiring no communication, a near impossibility in the terrain.

Why I have given you a brief background is so that you understand that army could have easily made this case into a case wherein there was actionable "INT" and circumstantial "evidence" to carry out a liquidation. However, given the facts as a whole, even the army, after initial jubilation and euphoria of a successful interception, felt that the story was not adding up, especially in the manner the 'Op' was carried out.

That there was a civil hue and cry and pressure of state and central government in aftermath of large scale protests, was immaterial for the army to order a CoI. It were the above facts which did not add up, that made army take a look at the case again and order a CoI.

Sorry, this is a rough note only.




As for your reference to numerous rapes etc etc .. something which the common PDF member keeps perpetuating, am sure you shall agree that the human civil society is not perfect and there are crooks and down right bAstards of all kinds in every society.

Unfortunately, some manage to get power by wearing an uniform. Let me assure you, that the number of people who have been punished for rapes equals the number of rapes actually committed. There is no leniency in that, we can't afford the leniency there.

There is a propensity for women to cry rape as the security forces throw a cordon to search and apprehend militants on intelligence tip offs at ties to stall the forces and permit the militants to escape in the resultant imbroglio. In J&K as we have permitted media coverage, this trick is quite effective in stalling a cordon and search.

Are you aware that the stone pelting is normally an act taken up by school going and college children of 14-24 years and usually after their working hours or after friday prayers? And usually their (school children) mothers will intervene quickly in order to protect them ... at times providing screen for these kids to continue with their acts in which case the CRPF women company takes care of the situation

What the security forces do, is usually ask all women folk to clear out from a place they intend to search, something that is verified by CRPF women constables who are present, and then conduct a search. At no time do the troops enter a house without ensuring all inmates are accounted for outside the house.

The reasons are:

1. It ensures presence of registered and bonafide inhabitants of the village/town as also guests only. This is verified from the master list as also by the headman(in case of a village) personally identifying individuals and their identifying documents, usually an Aadhar Card nowadays.

2. That all citizens are safe in case of a gunfight.

3. That the house can be fired in case there are militants hiding in the house or within the insulated walls with no requirement of room entry.

If rapes were so common, then young girls would not be calling indian soldiers 'hun' (or dog) to their face ... lol

Also, the general Kashmiri has nothing against any army personnel or officer. Unlike what our friends from Pakistan want to believe and indeed perpetuate, the average Kashmiri is fully able to recognise a military personnel and as long as the personnel is in civil clothes and roaming around, he is never touched and is looked after as a guest in the true spirit of Kashmiriyat.

There have been instances wherein an army officer/personnel roaming around as an actual tourist in civil clothes has been warned with good intent of impending civil unrest by the very same people who indulge in it to leave the area in order to be safe. The same people will target the same guy if he is in uniform any other time. It has nothing to do with Indians or Kashmiris but more to do with government and civil population. Sad!

 

[Arsalan]

Here are the facts as I know them, without references, since I woke from a fitful sleep to write all this, and know that I will drop off very soon. However, at a later date and a better time, I will try to reference them.

1. Mountbatten had intended that in all borderline cases of the accession of princely states to India, there should be a referendum (he was not in charge of Pakistan, ever, and Jinnah became Governor-General there).
2. The Maharaja of Kashmir wanted to try for complete independence, although he had a stand-still agreement with Pakistan (not with India). When he lost Mirpur to a popular uprising (that is today Azad Kashmir), and when the Mirpuris welcome a column of armed raiders who then marched to Baramula, he started negotiating seriously with India for military help.
3. India asked for accession, and was unwilling to act for a non-aligned and uncommitted ruler. This was done on the 26th of October, and troops were airlifted almost immediately, just in time to salvage the situation by avoiding the running over of Srinagar Airport by the raiders.
4. After fighting the raiders, forcing them to retreat, and clearing Rajauri and Poonch, and on the other hand, relieving Leh, freeing Kargil and pushing the Chitral State Forces-Gilgit Scouts column back to Skardu, India went to the UN, naively expecting a condemnation and a resolution asking for the aggression to be vacated.
5. Instead, the UN made a conciliatory advisory resolution, asking everyone to stop fighting, and asking India to hold a referendum after Pakistan vacated the parts of Kashmir not under Indian control.
6. Pakistan did not raise the matter in the UN proper, but objected only once the referendum commission sat. There was to be no vacation of territory held, as India was not to be trusted!
7. These meetings broke down comically soon, and the status quo remained.
8. Subsequently, in years to come, the relationship between the two politicians, Nehru and Abdullah, deteriorated, and a period of political tension followed, not reflected on the ground in social or individuals conditions.

Incidentally, I read your post above, and the Indians were asked to retain as many troops as might be needed to maintain law and order.

These are the facts, and you are welcome to verify them.

There are some facts that you may want to add sir or perhaps i can try and point them out:

1. There were reasons for Maharaja citing to stay independent or not getting closer to India initially. The state was over 70% Muslim majority. It was pretty obvious how they would have reacted to Maharaja getting close to India. If you study the events that followed, one may argue that the idea was there from the very start. So when you mention how Maharaja wanted an independent Kashmir perhaps it is appropriate to mention the reasons as well.
   
2. The uprisings were common and with the head of state's direction pretty obvious, unrest was bound to happen. Also i hope you have studied the massacre of Muslims in those very same areas and surroundings preceding that uprising. Reason enough may be.

Sir i always stress on how it is important to realize what the problem actually is if we are serious in resolving it. If it is all just a promotional stunt and a feel good activity then i wont say much but if we and our governments are serious is letting all that innocent population of Kashmir live in peace then we will have to admit to some harsh realities that implicates our own wrong doings and those of our elders. 5hit happens, the thing is are we actually looking to get our self out of this mess. I just don't feel it to be fair that myself a Pakistani and you an Indian talk about all these possible decisions about the future of Kashmir while we are not getting them involved in the whole process. Unless we do so the problem will continue and despite all that smoke screen the last two weeks were enough to show that the struggle is far from over and the problem continues and required to be addressed sensibly.

@hassamun i went through your posts, well constructed arguments. Thanks for sharing your views here. @hellfire you have been in this category for some time now. Just keep it down a notch (on patriotism as it usually blind one of facts). ( not saying that you do so often, you dont!)

Lets try at identifying our mistakes rather than point at those of others. We have tried this for over 50 years to no avail, may be it is time to try a new approach?

@WAJsal @Joe Shearer anyone else up for it? @Levina ? or have you given up all hope?

 

[Hellfire]

@hellfire you have been in this category for some time now. Just keep it down a notch (on patriotism as it usually blind one of facts). ( not saying that you do so often, you dont!)

What category?

"Oh ban the bugger permanently ..... but he is not yet off the edge, so wait" category?


Anyways, I doubt there is patriotism in my post, as you rightly pointed it out, it beats the purpose. However, thanks for your heads up, indeed one has to have an open mind to really accept the situation and critically analyse it. For me, it is more of an eye opener as to my ignorance. People like @WAJsal are proving to be a treasure trove for expanding the limited knowledge I realise I have.

Patriotism notwithstanding, you are right when you say that we have been accusing the other far too long!

@hassamun indeed posted a great write up and I just added a poor hurried post to try and put a counter narrative to the oft repeated posts of mass rapes, something which simply does not have any realism to it.

There was a case, wherein, it was the other way round and a militant was liquidated in Gishat Nar general area near Bandipore as he raped the daughter of a gujjar on a continuous basis and the Gujjar informed the local RR team about the presence of the militant and the liquidation took place. On the other hand, an unearthing of thriving sex and p0rn racket in Bandipore wherein the involved party was arrested by the local army unit and handed over to the police who let him off because of the racketeer's connection with Hurriyat, exposed the deep connections between the politicians and the Hurriyat.

The problem is that these social and political aspects of this problem have never been brought to fore. I have just posted this incident, there is no media source to back it, but then, it has happened on ground.

The nexus of politicians and hurriyat is something that needs a dispassionate analysis. Insofar the funding of hurriyat is concerned, they continue to receive funds from both India and Pakistan and have absolutely no clear cut agenda other than foment trouble which only brings misery on the common kashmiri, IMO. Both the politicians and Hurriyat are making tremendous personal wealth at the expense of the poor Kashmiri, and that is where I get stuck every time, my rant that nobody who claims to espouse the cause of the poor average Kashmiri actually sheds a light on this unholy nexus.

On a side note:
@Joe Shearer tagging you as have been asking people to ponder on u/m points and am trying to fit the same in the overnight appearance of posters in Pakistan requesting PA to take over as also now reports about unusual troop movements over and in Islamabad.

Had tagged you but upload failure occurred (i guess) so tagging you on edit


My one query which I have posed to a couple of members from Pakistan is why liquidate Wani now, when it could have been done on any day ever since he made his entry on to the scene?

Was it political expediency?

Ok if one is to take a view that perhaps it was decided to liquidate him on actual security reason (which is not so), then, why release his body to his kin for a burial, knowing very well that a large turnout will come for the last rites with potential civil unrest?

Granted his body was given even after considering the large gathering expected to turn up for the funeral procession. The next logical question crops up is why not deploy security forces for a stringent clampdown on Tral to negate civil unrest which followed? There were resources and troops enough to ensure that, army was never called out throughout, instead CAPFs and Paramilitary forces are being used. Indeed, the opposite took place and it was decided to withdraw security forces from the town.

So looking at these, my one question remains, who gained? or what has been achieved?

On a far fetched, I-certainly-hope-so-god, totally idiotic and crazy hope, are we heading for a surprise compromise on Kashmir between India and Pakistan where again all these may have been political posturing in order to divert the attention?

Now you can kick me off for being certified delusional @WAJsal

 

[Arsalan]

What category?

"Oh ban the bugger permanently ..... but he is not yet off the edge, so wait" category?

lolz, NO!!
This category bahi,,

......i went through your posts, @hellfire you have been in this category for some time now. Just keep it down a notch (on patriotism as it usually blind one of facts). ( not saying that you do so often, you dont!)

 

[Hellfire]

@Arsalan added my queries on Wani ... not able to pin point the logic of eliminating him now, not eliminating had intelligence value, but now who gains ...? request kick it around if you can ... and ponder over it

@notorious_eagle tagging you too

 

[CorporateAffairs]

Eliminate these terrorists and anti nationals mercilessly.

 

[Arsalan]

Definitely ; WE Hindus have learnt a LOT from History

That is why we have become ruthless when it comes to Kashmir

Sad that you do not seem to be learning anything from the recent past/recent history. Being ruthless wont get you anywhere and THE important lessons that you failed to learn.

I really deplore your answer.

It displays laziness and unwillingness to look into the records and annals to determine the correct situation.

I am particularly unhappy that the several times that i have written on this set of issues has seemingly had no impact on those who were members at that time.

This is very saddening.

I hope it just does that and not a general mind set.
For the sake of EVERYONE involved sir.

 

[ghazi52]

Its up to Kashmiris to become aware of the murder of their people, suppression of their rights, occupation of their home and lands

Every funeral should be a political message where azaadi is the central message and indian crimes are discussed and condemned

True..

 

[SQ8]

Spoke to my friend. All phone services suspended, the Indian forces there are on a killing spree against unarmed protestors.

 

[ghazi52]