Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[Ganga]

and of all the talk of Infrastructure, I would like to make a quick point. Infra is not just fancy clean roads in selected cities that the foreigners get impressed with. Its a cummulation of a variety of factors like Rails, Air corridors, electricity etc. If you refer the world economic forum report on Global competitiveness, you will see some of these parameters defined and both India and Pakistan rated on the same. While Infra in India is not that great, it is still rated 13 ranks above Pakistan's and there was a similar story in 2009 report too

You are absolutely right.A lot of things should be taken into consideration when the infrastructure of a nation is judged.

 

[justanobserver]

They know that a fundamental truism in history has been that two global powers cannot share borders.

Russia and China ?

 

[SMC]

And please stop giving us stupid personal anecdotes on American professors and your Western friends visiting Pakistan and being amazed.

Why not? Those anecdotes come from people who have been to BOTH, not just India, or just basing their opinion on what they hear in the media. When you don't want to hear about the ground reality, it seems to be that you're not interested in hearing experiences of people who have the true knowledge to put things into perspective.

You talk about American Professors, we have premier American colleges lining up to enroll Indian students. Last wednesday I attended a seminar by Booth School of business here in Delhi. Let me know when something like that happens in Pakistan.

I think you'll be quite surprised by your lack of knowledge here. I live in Canada so I don't know much about this but what my cousins in Pakistan tell me will surprise you.

Also, what does this have to do with the situations in either country?

We have the Americans using names like Bangalore to scare their kids into studying harder.

Err yeah, a city of 6 odd million representing whole of India. Yeah, not a good argument.

And dont give me $hyt about high growth rates and industrialization.

WTF?

Talk to us Indians when you have at least 3 companies in the Fortune 500. We have more than 10.

Talk to us when you have a globally recognized brand. We have too many to count here.

Talk to us when a Pakistani company employs more than a thousand Americans. TCS and Infosys do.

Talk to us when a Pakistani company takes over a landmark western institution. Tata did it with JLR and Reliance and Aditya Birla group have done it numerous times.

What do any of these have to do with the situation in either country? Does having few big name companies indicate what the ground reality is like? Conversely, does not having them also indicate what ground reality is like.

And talk to us when your country is known for any exports other than global terror.

Untill then, STFU!

Classical bharti ad hominem. Usually used when there are few other arguments left.

---------- Post added at 03:32 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:32 PM ----------

Russia and China ?

Russia is not a global power and will probably not become one anytime soon.

 

[Areesh]

And dont give me $hyt about high growth rates and industrialization.

Talk to us Indians when you have at least 3 companies in the Fortune 500. We have more than 10.

Talk to us when you have a globally recognized brand. We have too many to count here.

Talk to us when a Pakistani company employs more than a thousand Americans. TCS and Infosys do.

Talk to us when a Pakistani company takes over a landmark western institution. Tata did it with JLR and Reliance and Aditya Birla group have done it numerous times.

And talk to us when your country is known for any exports other than global terror.

Untill then, STFU!

Hey boy. The difference is that we used to even talk to you when you didn't had any of the above things and were famous with titles as Sick man of Asia and Stinky Nation. That's where the moral bankruptcy pays in.

 

[justanobserver]

Russia is not a global power and will probably not become one anytime soon.

Thats news to me...

were famous with titles as Sick man of Asia

Sick Man of Asia

The phrase "sick man of Asia" or "sick man of East Asia" originally referred to China in the late 19th and early 20th centuries when it was riven by internal divisions and forced by the great powers into a series of Unequal Treaties, culminating in the Japanese invasion of China in the Second World War. The phrase was intended as a parallel to "sick man of Europe", referring to the weakening Ottoman Empire during the same period.
--------------------
Now they're considered as an economic powerhouse, perceptions change (for both India and Pakistan).

 

[TechLahore]

Yeah right, Pakistan is better than India. My a$$. And please stop giving us stupid personal anecdotes on American professors and your Western friends visiting Pakistan and being amazed. You talk about American Professors, we have premier American colleges lining up to enroll Indian students. Last wednesday I attended a seminar by Booth School of business here in Delhi. Let me know when something like that happens in Pakistan. We have the Americans using names like Bangalore to scare their kids into studying harder.

Here we have a pompous ignoramus! If you can't listen to anything that falls outside the comfort of your preconceived notions then take a frickin' hike.

If you are not aware that a significant percentage of the faculty of the Government College in Lahore is made up of American professors from leading US universities, then that is not my problem. If you are unaware that the FC College here in Lahore is the same, and that both these schools have exchange programs with American Universities, then that is not my problem. And if you are not aware that the board of LUMS is comprised of serving Professors from MIT, Harvard and other leading American universities, who come here, teach here, recruit from here and run programs where the same class is taught at the same time via live video cons between LUMS and MIT, then that is not my problem. If you are unaware that the University of Central Punjab has had exchange affiliations where students can attend an entire BS program and receive a US degree... SINCE 1993, then that is not my problem. And this is just a small sampling from Lahore. You are new to American universities working in your country, but we are not. The entire Punjab University New Campus was setup in Lahore in the 70s with US collaboration and exchange programs with American Universities. That was the time when you were flying the Socialist flag and it wouldn't be several decades later until you finally grew some brains and presented yourself at the altar of a different "friend".

And dont give me $hyt about high growth rates and industrialization.

I'm glad it hurts. Suck it up.

And talk to us when your country is known for any exports other than global terror.

Why don't I talk to you now when you are known globally for f1lth, insurgencies, terrorizing Kashmiris and Slumdog Millionaire. If you are going to take a bull$hit tone with me, I will respond in kind.

As for terror, don't count your chickens before they've hatched. With the Naxal insurgency raging over a far greater area than the Taliban can even dream of, and Kashmir in flames.... look in the mirror... unless its too scary of an image to deal with.

Untill then, STFU!

Get a life you and grow some. Learn to listen to reality beyond your bull$hit sorry a$$ local rags. And if being here hurts so bad, then FO!!!.

 

[TextMiner]

China is already a global power and throughout history two neighbours have never been able to attain the stature of global powers together. China will not allow you to project power globally as it is more than capable of creating enough security challenges in your own backyard (land and sea) that you will strain to meet them. Don't take this as an insult, this is just a fundamental rule of history.

In Europe too, the dominant global powers emerged when their neighbour had declined.

First of all, in what way can you tell me is China a Global Power ? A Global Power has to influence military, economic and political influence on those countries which inflluence policy making throughout the Entire Globe. Inability in any one front automatically dispels the Global Power notion ; China is able to do so on the economic front ; Also being in the UNSC its political influence is considerable ; Yet militarily China is still very much a regional power.

Secondly, Have you ever heard of the Hundred Years War between England and France ? This was a significant event in history where one power declined and the other power ascended, but the real power they started projecting was of an imperialistic doctrine and colonialism. It was this way they could get leeway, by being side-by-side as Global powers and yet, not annihilate each other. Read up on the aftermath of the Hundred Years War on the Global Foreign Policy of either nations. So, your second point too failed to be of any impact.

If you look back to the papers written by the founding fathers of America, a key part of the discussion was to prevent geographically contiguous countries from becoming too strong because if that were to happen, the US would not be able to break-out as a global power.

Here, i am not aware of any Doctrines by the Forefathers that did mention about such a notion. Most of the earlier foreign policies of the US was only not to bring wars into the American continent, and thereby support of such nations which did not have an interest in the Latin or Northern Americas. Even the Roosevelt Doctrine (Theodore) was only to be a hegemony in the Americas. The earliest i recollect of American global domination doctrines were only in the post World War II scenario.

 

[TechLahore]

Russia and China ?

And you think Russia is a global power? In what world???

 

[TechLahore]

This thread is closed. The discussion started due to a ridiculous mischaracterization in an Indian news article and it has since been visited by tangents concerning infrastructure, economies, uncontrolled bouts of anger and other typical India vs. Pakistan back and forth. In future, if I see an agenda driven, biased article from the Indian press I will simply kill the thread and save us all a few pages of reading effort.

 

[GreenStar]

Looks like the situation is getting worse...very disappointing to hear that the Indian goverment is failing to control the crowd in a civil productive manner.

 

[karan.1970]

As I said it isn't going to bring any change. The IOK is burning and it will till it gets freedom from the foreigners. As far as militancy is concerned it can rise against easily with all the ingredients for it are present in IOK. As far as about illegitimate occupation Kashmir doesn't belong to India in the first place, so it is obvious it is an illegitimate occupation. An occupation which is bound to end even at any cost.

These are just statements without any substance. More on the lines of "If wishes were horses"

I dont want to go into the to and fro of What Maharaja of Kashmir did in terms of aceeding to India and what were the conditions of the plebiscite and how they were never met.

In today's scenario, the situation is much better than what it was a few years ago. While there are spordaic up surges like the one we are seeing now, they are not strong enough to make a tangible difference. We have weathered much worse storms. Actually if you compare, the situation is much worse in places like Balochistan, and if Pakistan can manage that, we can certainly manage the issues in Kashmir.

 

[Areesh]

These are just statements without any substance. More on the lines of "If wishes were horses"

I dont want to go into the to and fro of What Maharaja of Kashmir did in terms of aceeding to India and what were the conditions of the plebiscite and how they were never met.

In today's scenario, the situation is much better than what it was a few years ago. While there are spordaic up surges like the one we are seeing now, they are not strong enough to make a tangible difference. We have weathered much worse storms. Actually if you compare, the situation is much worse in places like Balochistan, and if Pakistan can manage that, we can certainly manage the issues in Kashmir.

And it doesn't much time to make the reverse the cycle and take it back to where it was a few years ago. Fortunately the ingredients are their and your will to continue occupation would be just what needed to make the things back to where they before.

These are just statements without any substance. More on the lines of "If wishes were horses"

By the way last part of your post isn't much different.
.

 

[karan.1970]

And it doesn't much time to make the reverse the cycle and take it back to where it was a few years ago. Fortunately the ingredients are their and your will to continue occupation would be just what needed to make the things back to where they before.



By the way last part of your post isn't much different.
.

The difference is that your post is talking about what may happen in future and how its easy enough to take the violence in J&K back up thru the use of Pakistan based terrorists. Where as I am talking about how the present situation is relatively milder than past situation in India and is nothing compared to the present turmoil in Pakistan and how India has a much higher degree of staying power than Pakistan to weather this storm.

And it doesn't much time to make the reverse the cycle and take it back to where it was a few years ago. .

Actually it does take a lot to do that. India is much stronger than what it was 10 years back and Pakistan is much weaker (economically and politically). Also there is too much cr@p flying around in Pakistan in terms of TTP, LeJ and the likes for Pakistan to be able to focus any tangible attention to Kashmir. And then there is Afghanistan. So with a significantly distracted Pakistan in Balochistan, Afghanistan and KP region, and its horrific economic situation, it will be a tough ask to drum up a significant tangible action in Kashmir

But hey, ummeed pe duniya kayaam hai.. Keep on hoping..

 

[Areesh]

The difference is that your post is talking about what may happen in future and how its easy enough to take the violence in J&K back up thru the use of Pakistan based terrorists. Where as I am talking about how the present situation is relatively milder than past situation in India and is nothing compared to the present turmoil in Pakistan and how India has a much higher degree of staying power than Pakistan to weather this storm.

Well definitely IOK has past also which fortunately due to your occupation was very violent. Now with the same occupation in continuation and Kashmiri frustration on the boil it isn't a rocket science to understand how easy is it to make things worst in IOK. As far as Pakistan's turmoil is concern Pakistan has successfully weathered foreign sponsered terrorism in it's and can has every tendency to pay back in the same currency. With Pakistan very righteously claim on IOK, it is the best place to pay back the debt we have on our shoulders in IOK.

Actually it does take a lot to do that. India is much stronger than what it was 10 years back and Pakistan is much weaker (economically and politically). Also there is too much cr@p flying around in Pakistan in terms of TTP, LeJ and the likes for Pakistan to be able to focus any tangible attention to Kashmir. And then there is Afghanistan. So with a significantly distracted Pakistan in Balochistan, Afghanistan and KP region, and its horrific economic situation, it will be a tough ask to drum up a significant tangible action in Kashmir

OH come one we know how strong you are. Even if we accept you are as strong as America(which you aren't), you can see what is happening to America in Afghanistan. With China's support in this region and situation very quickly changing in Afghanistan Pakistan can easily support Kashmiris independence movement in IOK in every manner. Even back than when Pakistan was supporting so called cross border terrorism in IOK Pakistan wasn't an economic giant and their was political turmoil in Pakistan. But with all this it forced it's enemies to bleed in it's rightly claim territory. In 70's we faced Balochistan problem and in 80's we forced our stinky enemy to bleed, now again we face problems in KP and Balochistan. And God knows how we might respond to our enemies when Indian will to continue it's illegitimate occupation and Kashmiri frustration add to our advantage.

But hey, ummeed pe duniya kayaam hai.. Keep on hoping.

That is exactly what I am trying to you and other Bharatis. IOK's supposed accession to Bharat was a blunder and should be rectified.

 

[bc040400065]

Why isn’t India a pariah state?

By ROB BROWN
09/19/2010 04:51


The Indian occupation of Kashmir between 1989-2009 has resulted in more than 70,000 deaths but there are no serious moves to delegitimize the country.
Most citizens of this country probably feel they already have quite enough on their plates dealing with Hizbullah and Hamas without pondering what’s happening way off in the Himalayas. Current events in Kashmir do, however, deserve serious consideration, if only because dark and dangerous parallels between that conflict and the Israel-Palestinian one are being drawn by global jihadists, as well as by some influential international opinion-formers who should know better.

An “intifada-style popular revolt” is how The New York Times has portrayed the latest popular uprising against Indian occupation which has swept through this predominantly Muslim province this summer, making the breathtakingly beautiful Kashmir Valley appear even more of a paradise lost. Although not clad in keffiyehs, young Kashmiri teenagers can sometimes resemble their Palestinian peers as they throw stones at army patrols and dodge tear-gas canisters on the streets of the state capital, Srinagar.


But what the world is never told by The New York Times, nor by most other supposedly liberal organs, is that New Delhi’s response to such civil disobedience has been far more savage and brutal than anything authorized in Jerusalem or Tel Aviv, leading in the past to serious armed insurrection (often incited by Pakistan).

The Indian essayist Pankaj Mishra justly observed recently: “The killing fields of Kashmir dwarf those of Palestine and Tibet. In addition to the everyday regime of arbitrary arrests, curfews, raids and checkpoints enforced by nearly 700,000 Indian soldiers, the valley’s 4 million Muslims are exposed to extrajudicial execution, **** and torture, with such barbaric variations as live electric wires inserted into the penis.”
A LEADING local NGO, the International People’s Tribunal on Human Rights and Justice in Indian-Administered Kashmir, has reported that extrajudicial killings and torture are commonplace there. It claims that the Indian military occupation of that state between 1989-2009 has resulted in more than 70,000 deaths, and many of these killings were deemed “acts of service” by India’s feared Central Reserve Police Force, leading to promotion and financial reward (bounty is paid after claims made by officers are verified, apparently).

Still, there are no serious moves afoot in editorial corridors or academic campuses anywhere in the Western world to transform India into an international pariah. No calls for boycotts, disinvestment or sanctions against the world’s largest democracy.

The deafening silence over Kashmir speaks volumes about the double standards by which different governments around the globe are judged on their human rights records.

Partly this stems from the post-imperial guilt complex which continues to afflict so many citizens of the West.

The atrocities committed by former colonies are endlessly excused by loose-thinking liberals in London and Paris, however flagrant and ugly such abuses might be. On the extremely rare occasions when repugnant regimes are taken to task, the real responsibility for their brutality is usually reported to lie with external agents.

The Pakistani Marxist polemicist Tariq Ali recently regaled readers of the zealously anti-Zionist London Review of Books with the claim that the real cause of Kashmiris’ current suffering is the ever-evil IDF. “It has been open season on Muslims since 9/11, when the liberation struggle in Kashmir was conveniently subsumed under the war on terror,” he wrote. “Israeli military officers were invited to visit Akhnur military base in the province and advise on counter-terrorism measures.”

Ali gleefully quotes the Web site India Defense, which noted in September 2008 that “Maj.-Gen. Avi Mizrahi paid an unscheduled visit to the disputed state of Kashmir last week to get an up-close look at the challenges the Indian military faces in its fight against Islamic insurgents.

Mizrahi was in India for three days of meetings with the country’s military brass, and to discuss a plan the IDF is drafting for Israeli commandos to train Indian counter-terror forces.”

The concern isn’t that such conspiracy theories are recycled on the pages of the LRB – a small, self-important literary journal – but they are also plastered across countless Islamofascist Web sites, reinforcing the dangerously warped worldview of some of the most dangerous people on the planet. In her days as director-general of the British security service MI5, Eliza Mannigham- Buller observed how jihadists are driven by “a powerful narrative that weaves together conflicts from across the globe, [including] long-standing conflicts such as Israel-Palestine and Kashmir.”

What this leading spook didn’t add is that the crazed fury which results from such communal paranoia isn’t directed with equal vehemence and violence against the various alleged perpetrators. The once heavenly Kashmir Valley has become hell on earth for many of its inhabitants, but Indians are unlikely to have to endure the same hellish condemnation as Israelis. The sole Jewish state on the planet is proving a wonderful lightning rod for Islamic militants – and their misguided liberal-leftist allies – in a way that the Indian-administered state of Jammu and Kashmir could never be.

Raw economic factors reinforce such inconsistencies.

People may be killed like poultry in Kashmir, as in Tibet, but even “progressive” Western politicians are too chicken to jeopardize their countries’ rapidly expanding commercial connections with either India or China. Of course, little Israel isn’t anywhere near as lucrative a marketplace. Consequently, a Kashmiri (or a Tibetan) life will continue to count for far less than that of a Palestinian.

Why isn?t India a pariah state?