Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[JanjaWeed]

Has India successfully managed to 'internalise' kashmir?

i don't think it has ever been an external problem, no matter how hard people tried to make it & are still trying to! india always had the control over this & never allowed anyone to take advantage of the situation.

 

[Bull]

I'm not suggesting that protesters or rioters be given as you put it "a free hand" -- though Killing protesters does suggest that occupation forces find themselves under tremendous strain -- these killings will be responded to - we all know this - and of course this will be upping the ante - whose interest other than those who seek military confrontation will that serve?

well protesters are hot at when the lathis or batons fail, be it Paris or Manilla, their isn't anything 'occupying' in it. Its a law an order issue.

 

[Patrician]

Has India successfully managed to 'internalise' kashmir?

i don't think it has ever been an external problem, no matter how hard people tried to make it & are still trying to! india always had the control over this & never allowed anyone to take advantage of the situation.

No no...you didn't get what i was trying to say

Kashmir was pretty much very well discussed internationally even, say, 5-6 years ago. But things are perhaps changing now as far as that 'international spotlight' is concerned.

 

[su-47]

Kashmiries dont need help from any other country..... they will do all by themself..... Even if what you said i true still kashmir is a disputed land.....

we'll see.

i think its in india interest to let go kashmir and develop its people..... specially people living on footpaths.....

Thank you for the concern shown. There are many here who constantly dedicate their time and effort to fight for the poor in India. And your fight is bearing fruit. More Indians are being lifted out of poverty. This matter has been discussed before. The poor in India can sleep in peace, knowing that there are deicated groups of Pakistanis who care for their well being.

But hey, something just struck my mind. What about the poor in Pakistan? Who worries for them, considering you spent all your efforts worrying about Kashmir and Indian poor?

 

[Hulk]

I had sympathy for Kashmiri's but when I see their violent behavior, I lose all of the sympathy. Rioters should be dealt with Iron hand.
This is how I see the situations.
1) First death was accident not a HR violation. Since teargas is not meant to kill.
2) The protest that started after first death was uncalled for, since no one was at fault.
3) Opportunistic took advantage of situation, so they are to be blamed.
4) More deaths were caused by controlling riots ofcourse some collateral was their.
5) Opportunist kept selectively highlighting riot control to incite violence and Kashmiri's kept falling for it.
6) So for present situation Kashmiri's and opportunist are responsible.
7) One cannot have peace by indulging in rioting.

I think it will not be bad idea if this continues for another 6 months. At least Kashmiri's will realize that it will achieve nothing for them but they will be only loser. Sometime to fix a problem you need to first let it continue till people get tired.

 

[Dash]

Let them come out of the flood first...Iam sure they will, but when thay are is issues, they talk about us.

coming back to topic, Kashmir was always an internal matter and it will be. Crying doesnt help.

Let there be another Tiananmen square, doesnt matter.China is in peace now.

 

[Patrician]

I disagree there. We've not been able to muster a sustained backing on our position for as far back as I can remember.

Do remember that the int. community can only dive in when it sees there is room for it to do so. India doesn't allow anyone to dive in with criticism and will always throw back the 'this is an internal matter' to whoever talks of Kashmir.

We just don't have the cover to go out on a diplomatic offensive, so it's futile to think we should.

You talk of the MRCA, then you should find an answer within that yourself - India's economic influence. So powerful is India's standing when it comes to deals such as that, they can flag up the MRCA card to ward off any criticism if they wish to.

I agree with your final point. I think India got it wrong when it went with the 'ISI sponsored stone throwers' gambit from the outset of the protests. It was clearly internally inspired and was foolish to think Pakistan was behind it.

I think it's fair to say that we could be milking this situation a great deal more, but the reaction from the top has been clearly muted. I think that's a desire to keep on good terms if and when talks resume between the two nations.

One very interesting point comes to my mind when I think about the bolded part.

Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests.

I mean just think about it hypothetically for a second, imagine are GoI and you know your enemy (ISI/Pak) is sponsoring the stone pelters and inciting violence. Now, will you raise the issue internationally knowing that doing so would only lead to internationalization of the issue which will of course be only detrimental to your interests?

My point: It is very much possible that the current unrest is sponsored by ISI (and they have reason to do so keeping in mind the upcoming visit of Obama to India) and that the GoI firmly knows it but still it chooses to remain mum on that aspect in order to avoid attracting the attention of the international community.

Think about it! It could be a very well thought out startegy by the GoI...a very strategic move. It will be a trade-off, GoI will gain some ire of some internal stakeholders but will be successfully able to avoid the attention of the major world powers.

SHORT TERM LOSS, LONG TERM GAIN

It could be possible!

 

[Dash]

huh?.You want your countrymen killed.

They are protesting against India, true country men will not do it. They better be killed.

 

[Patrician]

Hey guys, one very interesting thing comes to my mind when I think of the current unrest in Kashmir:

I REQUEST YOU THAT BEFORE READING ANY FURTHER PUT ON YOUR THINKING CAPS:

One very interesting point comes to my mind when I think about the bolded part.

Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests.

I mean just think about it hypothetically for a second, imagine are GoI and you know your enemy (ISI/Pak) is sponsoring the stone pelters and inciting violence. Now, will you raise the issue internationally knowing that doing so would only lead to internationalization of the issue which will of course be only detrimental to your interests?

My point: It is very much possible that the current unrest is sponsored by ISI (and they have reason to do so keeping in mind the upcoming visit of Obama to India) and that the GoI firmly knows it but still it chooses to remain mum on that aspect in order to avoid attracting the attention of the international community.

Think about it! It could be a very well thought out startegy by the GoI...a very strategic move. It will be a trade-off, GoI will gain some ire of some internal stakeholders but will be successfully able to avoid the attention of the major world powers.

SHORT TERM LOSS, LONG TERM GAIN

It could be possible!

 

[Dash]

Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests

This doesnt matter, its been for years, the issue still then is not internaional. No one seems to bother for reasons that Kashmirs should be left to India and Pak, something the non alligned and non NPT, non CTBT signatories enjoy, and a blessing in disguise.

Saying ISI is behind this will not cause much concren apart from Pak.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

That is the crux of the problem....You are trying to put down my throat your version...what do you mean by Kashmiris???? Are you referring to people in valley???? Then yes you ar right...However here we are talking about State of Jammu and Kashmir, no??? Yes people are unhappy with GOI especially in valley however they are divided among themselves about what they want...Now please tell me what is wrong in my statement??

I am not shoving anything down your throat, and for clarification I am referring to Kashmiris as in those from Kashmir, not Jammu and Laddakh. What I am pointing out is that Indians are refusing to consider the possibility that the Kashmiris want the 'Azadi' to be able to determine their future status as part of Pakistan, India or independence. By refusing to deal with that possiblity, one that was in fact promised to the Kashmiris by the Indian State, it is India that is shoving pre-conditions down the throats of the Kashmiris.

The problem is you want to somehow criticize....I don't know about Pakistan but lets talk about India here....

The problem is that you want to discuss everything but the proverbial 'elephant in the room'.

"India’s economy is diverse, depending on agriculture, handicrafts, textile, manufacturing, and a multitude of services."

Indian Economy & Industry | Economy of India | world?s third largest economy

Yes 2/3 population depends on Agricuture directly on indirectly but do you know percentage of GDP they produce???

More than 52% of country's population depends on agriculture, a sector contributing only 17.5% of the GDP.

Indian Economic Structure: Indian Industry Sectors & Industries | Economy Watch

Do i need to explain how much is industrialization is important???

I am sorry, but to argue that the tens of thousands of Kashmirs are on the streets asking for 'Azadi' and abusing India is because of 'animal husbandry and agriculture' is just plain ludicrous. Industrialization is important, but why did this not happen in every single State in the Indian Union and in Pakistan before industrialization took place?

This argument is reflective of a deep desire to not deal with reality.

Your problem is too much talk about plebiscite without getting to the bottom of debate especially when it comes to kashmir...I know it is emotional subject but lets not leave intellectual mind while talking....I have already explained that Kashmiris(in other words people of jammu and kashmir) are divided on what they want....Is there disenchantment at all...of course Yes...is everyone part of it, Not at all....

The people of Kashmir are not really divided about what they want. A pretty significant majority wants 'Azadi'.

I am not being dishonest here but you are....I can understand the reason behind it but i don't know what can be achieved by being dishonest....May i know what data you have that tell you all the protestors are school/college going students who have not experienced "disenchantment with the job market"...Anyways let me take you words as correct...So now can you please tell me what Job market is Jammu and Kashmir going to provide these youths when they pass out from colleges/schools??? Are saying that you need to be out there unemployed for years before you get frustrated??? Is that the reason that young Pakistani are blowing them by wearing suicide wests in every corner of Pakistan? Perhaps all of them would be college pass outs waiting for jobs for years, no??? Clearly there is more to think about it before passing judgements, no???....

How can accuse me of being 'dishonest' when your justification of 'dissatisfaction with agriculture and animal husbandry' is just plain ludicrous and unsubstantiated? Where is your data to indicate this is the reason for disenchantment with India?

I cannot recall any posters in these protests stating 'down with animal husbandry' or 'an end to agricultural jobs', or even more simply, 'where is our Industry and and where are our factories'!!

One would expect that if what you state was the primary motivation behind these protests, there would be some sign or mention of it, and such a scenario might be replicated in other regions where 'agriculture and animal husbandry' were the main professions.

Again your problem is being selective on the demands of Kashmiri's....Plebiscite is a very complex issue...One cannot solve it because Agno believes that is the right way to go....Inviting people to find out what they want shows a mature step and is being done on various platforms...Here is one such debate...An interesting one...

There are various sin-off's on the plebiscite proposal that allow for district or region wise selection, or the Chenab formula for example. And if people are being invited to share their thoughts, then why refuse to consider one very real possibility of a demand for 'Azadi to choose Pakistan, India or independence'? How is that mature, when you rule out listening to possibly the underlying cause for disenchantment?

- People of Jammu and Kashmir(P-o-k, Jammu, Valley, Ladakh, Displaced Kashmiri Pandits), China, Pakistan, demilitarization of Kashmir including complete pull back by Pakistan and scores of Pakistani's(non kashmiri's) who have settled in Kashmir....So i can understand why Author is not talking about it...can you???....

I can understand the Indian refusal to talk about the real issues and blame 'animal husbandry' - it is a disconnect with reality. Complete pullback by Pakistan is as likely as a complete pullback by India. The UNSC resolutions did not endorse it unconditionally and the UNCIP proposals on demilitarization did not endorse it either. But the rest of it can be resolved through negotiations - that is precisely why you need to 'listen' to all grievances, and be prepared to talk the issue with Pakistan. Resolution of complex issues does not come from sitting around twiddling your thumbs and refusing to acknowledge the elephant in the room.

The result was reached a stage where we were close to resolve the issue....

The ball is in India's court on that issue. Pakistan is not the one refusing to start off where we left off.

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

Yes my dear but that is our stand. What this thread is about is the international powers' stand and the reason for it.

As far as China is concerned, they are wise enough to know what is in their best interest and their current silence vis a vis Kashmir is a reflection of that realisation.

I'd like to know your view on topic.

well rather than any chest inflation about " Indians having arrived as a super power on the world scene...etc" ....my thoughts are a bit more pragmatic.....
I think this apparent silence is due to two reasons .....countries Like GB , France ,Russia which have been our traditional supporters and are still so have always remained silent....no point antagonising an ally and an arms buyer of enormous proportions....britain has always washed its hands of the Kashmir issue anyways.......

as far as the U.S is cocerned it is eyeing India as a potential "Swing state" to counter all U.S un friendlies ......Kashmir being our most sensitive issue it would be in their interest to give it a wide berth....

however China has not at all ignored Kashmir....as I see it they are slowly moving from discreet manuevours( stapled visas, invites to geelani) to overt ones( outright denial of visa to the admiral,to stationing troops in AK) .......this may be a attempt to corner India diplomatically ,part of a grand design or simply to assuage the concerns of their all weather ally pakistan....I am inclined to the former....

as for the Arab world they generally toe the U.S line like ....Australia , SKorea or Canada.......


however there is an important reason .....the Kashmir problem has long been hijacked by vested interests and nefarious agendas ......
and forces trying to stoke up trouble has long been using terrorism as an effective way of internationalising the issue ....it is possible that international silence on kashmir reflects the view that any changes in the status quo will result in an increase in fundamentalism ....detrimental to all parties concerned and a realization that .....some things are best left alone........

 

[DGMO]

One very interesting point comes to my mind when I think about the bolded part.

Could it be that after it had raised the 'ISI sponsored stone-pelters' card, India realised that doing this will only lead to more internationalisation of the issue i.e. kashmiris' protests.

I mean just think about it hypothetically for a second, imagine are GoI and you know your enemy (ISI/Pak) is sponsoring the stone pelters and inciting violence. Now, will you raise the issue internationally knowing that doing so would only lead to internationalization of the issue which will of course be only detrimental to your interests?

My point: It is very much possible that the current unrest is sponsored by ISI (and they have reason to do so keeping in mind the upcoming visit of Obama to India) and that the GoI firmly knows it but still it chooses to remain mum on that aspect in order to avoid attracting the attention of the international community.

Think about it! It could be a very well thought out startegy by the GoI...a very strategic move. It will be a trade-off, GoI will gain some ire of some internal stakeholders but will be successfully able to avoid the attention of the major world powers.

SHORT TERM LOSS, LONG TERM GAIN

It could be possible!

I still believe it's incredibly difficult for an intelligence agency to influence protestors / stone throwers. It's easier to help militants, by training and arm them. I think you're overplaying the capabilities of the ISI. This really is a organic movement that has spiralled from the siege that population feels it is under.

You know what I think is more of an issue? Forget Obama's visit. With the CWG around the corner, and the media's focus on India, how do they ensure Kashmir is kept out of the headlines?

You can't avoid internationalisation when the worlds media descends on India. For India to have the CWG's going on, and protests and killings further north is a PR disaster and awareness it most definitely wants to avoid.

Something to bear in mind.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Unify over what??? When there understanding of Azadi is completely different, when the end result they are looking for is completely different then may i know what is the unification for????

I just gave you the answer in the post. It helps if you read the entire thing, instead of chopping it up.

'Azadi' means the 'Azadi to determine their future', whether as part of Pakistan, India or independent.

- There are some who complete reject this phenomenon
- There are some who want more Autonomy for Kashmir and consider it as Azaadi
- There are some who want complete freedom from India and merge with Pakistan
- There are some who want complete freedom from both India and Pakistan
- There are some who want to divide the state into three different states i.e. Kashmir, Jammu and Ladakh

So may i know what unity are you talking about??? Please understand that there is almost 2-3 months of protest and yet it has not been trickeled down to Jammu and Ladakh....Does this say something???

It says that the Kashmiris are primarily leading the cause, and that the solution perhaps lies in a regional or district wise plebiscite, or something like the Chenab formula.

Does that mean i am not Azaad??? Do people of Kashmir(J&K) do not have the freedom to decide about their future???? See how simplest definition can be screwed...Waht you are referring to as Azaadi in simplest term is People of Kashmir shoud decide which country they want to merge with, or to be an independent country and this is where they are not united...So yes they do not know what Azaadi means.....

The people of Kashmir were never asked whether they wanted to be part of the Indian State, and therefore until they are allowed to vote in a plebiscite, they do not have the right to determine their future. I am unaware of which part of India you are from, but perhaps the people of your State did indeed in some way support Gandhi and Nehru's creation of India in 1947.

And they are united in demanding the right to choose their destiny, what they end up choosing we will only know when a plebiscite is held. But once they have exercised that right, they will at least know that they were asked, and the majority chose a particular direction.

This is the only formulae that will work and we will end up having majority happy....people of valley will find themselves not directly under GOI control as border will be invisible, People of Jammu and Ladakh will find themselves alligned with GOI since borders are there though invisible and P-O-K people will find them free to move in and out in various parts of J&K

Again, it is not Pakistan that has refused to return to the point we left off at. You do realize that at this point India and Pakistan could have very well been at an advanced stage of implementing these proposals, and reducing their respective militaries at the borders, instead of dealing with dozens dead and massive protests.

A long standing demand of the people of G-B could be implemented at it be finally integrated into Pakistan as its fifth province.

Of course that would also mean that Indians would have to be called out on their canard of 'its in the Indian constitution and therefore there can be no plebiscite', since the Indian constitution refers to territories held by Pakistan and China, and it will have to be amended to reflect that reality.

 

[DGMO]

To me, the anger and frustration is more a result of the constant feeling of suffocation that has existed for the last 20 years or so.

I think that's a good analysis and interpretation of 'azaadi'.

For me, the Kashmiri's feel caged. If you're caged, then you want 'azaadi'. They're caged because of the security forces on every street corner, the check-posts and constant security checks. So if I were a Kashmiri, I'd want azaadi from that.

When they say 'Go India Go', what does India symbolise for the common Kashmiri? I think India = security forces and vice versa.

Can the security forces move out? Well why are they there? Militancy right? But is militancy at the same levels of the 90's? Is infiltration at the same levels? Do we seriously want to turn on the infiltration tap in the post 9/11 and 26/11 world? Jee nahin. I don't think there is that desire.

So easing the caged environment that Kashmiri's live in now could do wonders long-term. But this comes back to those tangible actions. Easing AFSPA is a first step. It's about sincerity, and we can get to the above further down the line, but time is running out. And New Delhi knows it.