Kashmir | News & Discussions.

[Awesome]

Why wasn't this explicitly stated by GoP in 1947?

Am I to construe that the stance of GoP vis a vis independence has changed?

Pakistan has always supported the right of self-determination by Kashmiris.

If they want to commit their allegiance to Martians then so be it, thats their right.

 

[Patrician]

*RESOLUTION 39 (1948) SUBMITTED BY THE REPRESENTATIVE OF BELGIUM AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 230TH MEETING HELD ON 20 JANUARY, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/654, DATED THE 20TH JANUARY, 1948).

THE SECURITY COUNCIL

Considering that it may investigate any dispute or any situation which might, by its continuance, endanger the maintenance of international peace and security, and that, in the existing state of affairs between India and Pakistan, such an investigation is a matter of urgency,

Adopts the following resolution:

1. A Commission of the Security Council is hereby established, composed of representatives of three Members of the United Nations, one to be selected by India, one to be selected by Pakistan, and the third to be designated by the two so selected.Each representative on the Commission shall be entitled to select his alternates and assistants.

2. The Commission shall proceed to the spot as quickly as possible. It shall act under the authority of the Security Council and in accordance with the directions it may receive from it. It shall keep the Security Council currently informed of its activities and of the development of the situation. It shall report to the Security Council regularly, submitting its conclusions and proposals.

3. The Commission is invested with a dual function; (1) to investigate the facts pursuant to Article 34 of the Charter of the United Nations; (2) to exercise, without interrupting the work of the Security Council, any mediatory influence likely to smooth away difficulties, to carry out the directions given to it by the Security Council; and to report how far the advice and directions, if any, of the Security Council, have been carried out.

4. The Commission shall perform the functions described in Clause C: (1) in regard to the situation in Jammu and Kashmir State set out in the letter of the Representative of India addressed to the President of the Security Council, dated 1 January 1948, and in the letter from the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan addressed to the Secretary-General, dated 15 January 1948; and (2) in regard to other situations set out in the letter from the Minister of Foreign Affairs of Pakistan addressed to the Secretary-General, dated 15 January 1948, when the Security Council so directs.

5. The Commission shall take its decision by majority vote. It shall determine its own procedure. It may allocate among its members, alternate members, their assistants, and its personnel such duties as may have to be fulfilled for the realization of its mission and the reaching of its conclusions.

6. The Commission, its members, alternate members, their assistants, and its personnel, shall be entitled to journey separately or together, wherever the necessities of their task may require, and, in particular within those territories which are the theater of the events of which the Security Council is seized.

7. The Secretary-General shall furnish the Commission with such personnel and assistance as it may consider necessary.

*The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 20-1-1948 with the following result:

Infavour: **Argentina, **Belgium, **Canada, China, **Columbia, France, **Syria, U.K. and U.S.A

Against: None

Abstaining: Ukrainian S. S. R. and U. S. S. R.

**Non-Permanent Members of the Security Council.


http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc20jan48.htm

---------- Post added at 02:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:57 PM ----------

*DRAFT RESOLUTION PRESENTED BY THE PRESIDENT (CANADA) OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL AND THE RAPPORTEUR (BELGIUM) ON 6 FEBRUARY, 1948 (DOCUMENT NO. 667, DATED THE 10TH FEBRUARY, 1948)

THE SECURITY COUNCIL

1. Having considered the claims and allegations of India and Pakistan expresses the conviction that a peaceful settlement of the dispute about the accession of Jammu and Kashmir will best promote the interests of the peoples of Jammu and Kashmir of India, and of Pakistan.
2. Considers that it is urgent and important to stop acts of violence and hostility in Jammu and Kashmir and to decide the question of whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall accede to Pakistan or to India by the democratic method of a plebiscite to be held, as recognized by the parties, under the auspices of the United Nations to ensure complete impartiality.
3. Believes that the joint action of the Governments of India and Pakistan is required to carry out the purposes setforth below:
4. Alternative A
Takes note with satisfaction that both Governments, in seeking a solution by negotiation under the auspices of the Council, have agreed to cooperate with each other and with the Council in developing specific proposals, and, to this end, to apply the following, principles which, in the opinion of the Council, should, among others, constitute the basis of a just settlement;

Alternative B

Appeals, therefore, to both parties, in seeking a solution by negotiation under the auspices of the Council, to cooperate with each other and with the Council in developing specific proposals and, to this end, to apply the following principles which, in the opinion of the Council, should, among others, constitute the basis of a just settlement;
1. Acts of violence and hostility must end.
2. The withdrawal and continued exclusion of all irregular forces and armed individuals who have entered Jammu and Kashmir from outside must be brought about, each party using to that end all the influence at its disposal.
3. Regular armed forces in aid of the establishment and maintenance of order must be made available. In this connection the Governments should seek to ensure cooperation between their military forces to establish order and security until the question of accession shall have been determined by the plebiscite.
4. Regular armed forces must be withdrawn as soon as reestablishment of law and order permits.
5. After acts of violence and hostility have ceased, all citizens of the Jammu and Kashmir State, who had left on account of the recent disturbances, shall be invited and be free to return to their homes and to exercise all their rights without any restrictions on legitimate political activity. There shall be no victimization. All political prisoners should be released.
6. The conditions necessary for a free and fair plebiscite on the question of whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir shall accede to India or to Pakistan, including an interim administration which will command confidence and respect of the people of the State of Jammu and Kashmir must be established.
7. Such conditions include that the plebiscite must be organized, held and supervised under the authority of the Security Council at the earliest possible date.

*This draft resolution was considered by the Security Council on 10th and 11th February, 1948, but was not put to vote. Subsequent]y, a Joint Draft Resolution was introduced by the Representatives of Belgium, Canada, China, Columbia, United Kingdom and the United States of America and its amended version (Doc. No S/726) was adopted by the Security Council on 21-4-1948, vide Resolution No 47 (I948).

http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc6feb48.htm

 

[Patrician]

Kashmir in the United Nations

Guys please save me unnecessary labour, go and see the resolutionos for yourself.

Regards,

Peace

 

[Patrician]

Pakistan has always supported the right of self-determination by Kashmiris.

If they want to commit their allegiance to Martians then so be it, thats their right.

Please show me the source which says Pakistan supported 'independent' kashmir in particular in 1947.

 

[Awesome]

RESOLUTION 47 (1948) ON THE INDIA-PAKISTAN QUESTION SUBMITTED JOINTLY BY THE REPRESENTATIVES FOR BELGIUM, CANADA, CHINA, COLUMBIA, THE UNITED KINGDOM AND UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND ADOPTED BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL AT ITS 286TH MEETING HELD ON 21 APRIL, 1948. (DOCUMENT NO. S/726, DATED THE 21ST APRIL, 1948).

THE SECURITY COUNCIL

Having considered the complaint of the Government of India concerning the dispute over the State of Jammu and Kashmir, having heard the representative of India in support of that complaint and the reply and counter complaints of the representative of Pakistan,

Being strongly of opinion that the early restoration of peace and order in Jammu and Kashmir in essential and that India and Pakistan should do their utmost to bring about cessation of all fighting,

Noting with satisfaction that both India and Pakistan desire that the question of the accession of Jammu and Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and impartial plebiscite,

Considering that the continuation of the dispute is likely to endanger international peace and security,

Reaffirms its resolution 38 (1948) of 17 January 1948;

Resolves that the membership of the Commission established by its resolution 39 (1948) of 20 January 1948, shall be increased to five and shall include, in addition to the membership mentioned in that Resolution, representatives of ....and ..., and that if the membership of the commission has not been completed within ten days from the date of the adoption of this resolution the President of the Council may designate such other Member or Members of the United Nations as are required to complete the membership of five;

Instructs the Commission to proceed at once to the Indian sub-continent and there place its good offices and mediation at the disposal of the Governments of India and Pakistan with a view to facilitating the taking of the necessary measures, both with respect to the restoration peace and order and to the holding of a plebiscite by the two Governments, acting in co-operation with one another and with the Commission, and further instructs the Commission to keep the Council informed of the action taken under the resolution; and, to this end,

Recommends to the Governments of India and Pakistan the following measures as those which in the opinion of the Council and appropriate to bring about a cessation of the fighting and to create proper conditions for a free and impartial plebiscite to decide whether the State of Jammu and Kashmir is to accede to India or Pakistan.


A - RESTORATION OF PEACE AND ORDER

1. The Government of Pakistan should undertake to use its best endeavors:

1. To secure the withdrawal from the State of Jammu and Kashmir of tribesmen and Pakistani nationals not normally resident therein who have entered the State for the purposes of fighting, and to prevent any intrusion into the State of such elements and any furnishing of material aid to those fighting in the State;

2. To make known to all concerned that the measures indicated in this and the following paragraphs provide full freedom to all subjects of the State, regardless of creed, caste, or party, to express their views and to vote on the question of the accession of the State, and that therefore they should co-operate in the maintenance of peace and order.

2. The Government of India should:
1. When it is established to the satisfaction of the Commission set up in accordance with the Council's Resolution 39 (1948) that the tribesmen are withdrawing and that arrangements for the cessation of the fighting have become effective, put into operation in consultation with the Commission a plan for withdrawing their own forces from Jammu and Kashmir and reducing them progressively to the minimum strength required for the support of the civil power in the maintenance of law and order;

2. Make known that the withdrawal is taking place in stages and announce the completion of each stage;

3. When the Indian forces shall have been reduced to the minimum strength mentioned in (a) above, arrange in consultation with the Commission for the stationing of the remaining forces to be carried out in accordance with the following principles:
1. That the presence of troops should not afford any intimidation or appearance of intimidation to the inhabitants of the State;

2. That as small a number as possible should be retained in forward areas;

3. That any reserve of troops which may be included in the total strength should be located within their present base area.

3. The Government of India should agree that until such time as the plebiscite administration referred to below finds it necessary to exercise the powers of direction and supervision over the State forces and policy provided for in paragraph 8, they will be held in areas to be agreed upon with the Plebiscite Administrator.

4. After the plan referred to in paragraph 2(a) above has been put into operation, personnel recruited locally in each district should so far as possible be utilized for the reestablishment and maintenance of law and order with due regard to protection of minorities, subject to such additional requirements as may be specified by the Plebiscite Administration referred to in paragraph 7.

5. If these local forces should be found to be inadequate, the Commission, subject to the agreement of both the Government of India and the Government of Pakistan, should arrange for the use of such forces of either Dominion as it deems effective for the purpose of pacification.

B - PLEBISCITE

6. The Government of India should undertake to ensure that the Government of the State invite the major political groups to designate responsible representatives to share equitably and fully in the conduct of the administration at the ministerial level, while the plebiscite is being prepared and carried out.

7. The Government of India should undertake that there will be established in Jammu and Kashmir a Plebiscite Administration to hold a plebiscite as soon as possible on the question of the accession of the State to India or Pakistan.

8. The Government of India should undertake that there will be delegated by the State to the Plebiscite Administration such powers as the latter considers necessary for holding a fair and impartial plebiscite including, for that purpose only, the direction and supervision of the State forces and police.

9. The Government of India should at the request of the Plebiscite Administration, make available from the Indian forces such assistance as the Plebiscite Administration may require for the performance of its functions.

10.
1. The Government of India should agree that a nominee of the Secretary-General of the United Nations will be appointed to be the Plebiscite Administrator.

2. The Plebiscite Administrator, acting as an officer of the State of Jammu and Kashmir, should have authority to nominate the assistants and other subordinates and to draft regulations governing the Plebiscite. Such nominees should be formally appointed and such draft regulations should be formally promulgated by the State of Jammu and Kashmir.

3. The Government of India should undertake that the Government of Jammu and Kashmir will appoint fully qualified persons nominated by the Plebiscite Administrator to act as special magistrates within the State judicial system to hear cases which in the opinion of the Plebiscite Administrator have a serious bearing on the preparation and the conduct of a free and impartial plebiscite.

4. The terms of service of the Administrator should form the subject of a separate negotiation between the Secretary-General of the United Nations and the Government of India. The Administrator should fix the terms of service for his assistants and subordinates.

5. The Administrator should have the right to communicate directly, with the Government of the State and with the Commission of the Security Council and, through the Commission, with the Security Council, with the Governments of India and Pakistan and with their representatives with the Commission. It would be his duty to bring to the notice of any or all of the foregoing (as he in his discretion may decide) any circumstances arising which may tend, in his opinion, to interfere with the freedom of the Plebiscite.

11. The Government of India should undertake to prevent and to give full support to the Administrator and his staff in preventing any threat, coercion or intimidation, bribery or other undue influence on the voters in the plebiscite, and the government of India should publicly announce and should cause the Government of the State to announce this undertaking as an international obligation binding on all public authorities and officials in Jammu and Kashmir.

12. The Government of India should themselves and through the government of the State declare and make known that all subjects of the state of Jammu and Kashmir, regardless of creed, caste or party, will be safe and free in expressing their views and in voting on the question of the accession of the State and that there will be freedom of the Press, speech and assembly and freedom of travel in the State, including freedom of lawful entry and exit.

13. The Government of India should use and should ensure that the Government of the State also use their best endeavor to effect the withdrawal from the State of all Indian nationals other than those who are normally resident therein or who on or since l5th August 1947 have entered it for a lawful purpose.

14. The Government of India should ensure that the Government of the State releases all political prisoners and take all possible steps so that:
1. all citizens of the State who have left it on account of disturbances are invited and are free to return to their homes and to exercise their rights as such citizens;
2. there is no victimization;
3. minorities in all parts of the State are accorded adequate protection.

15. The Commission of the Security Council should at the end of the plebiscite certify to the Council whether the plebiscite has or has not been really free and impartial.

C-GENERAL PROVISIONS

16. The Governments of India and Pakistan should each be invited to nominate a representative to be attached to the Commission for such assistance as it may require in the performance of its task.

17. The Commission should establish in Jammu and Kashmir such observers as it may require of any of the proceedings in pursuance of the measures indicated in the foregoing paragraphs.

18. The Security Council Commission should carry out the tasks assigned to it herein.


* The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 20-1-1948 with the following result:-

In favor: **Argentina, **Canada. China, France, **Syria, U. K, and U. S. A

Against: None

Abstaining: **Belgium, **Columbia, **Ukrainian S. S. R. . and U. S. S. R.

** Non-permanent Members of the Security Council.



http://www.kashmiri-cc.ca/un/sc21apr48.htm

The UN resolution is by the UNSC not by Pakistan and both India and Pakistan are obligated to follow it as members of the UN.

I also would like to point out UN Resolution 98, one which Indians like to not publicize since in it, along with Pakistan withdrawing its troops, even India is asked to withdraw its troops. Both should reduce to a minimum level which was understood would be necessary to maintain law and order

Kashmir, UN Security Council Resolution 98

THE SECURITY COUNCIL,
Recalling its resolutions, 91(1951) of 30 March 1951, its decision of 30 April 1951 and its
resolutions 96 (1951) of 10 November 1951,

Further Recalling the provisions of the United Nations Commission for India and Pakistan
resolutions of 13 August 1948, and 5 January 1949, which were accepted by the Governments of
India and Pakistan and which provided that the question of the accession of the State of Jammu and
Kashmir to India or Pakistan would be decided through the democratic method of a free and
impartial plebiscite conducted under the auspices of the United Nations.

Having received the third report, dated 22 April 1952, and the fourth report, dated 16 September
1952, of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan;

1. Endorses the general principles on which the United Nations Representative has sought to bring
about agreement between the Governments of India and Pakistan;

2. Notes with gratification that the United Nations Representative has reported that the Governments
of India and Pakistan have accepted all but two of the paragraphs of his twelve-point proposals;

3. Notes that agreement on a plan of demilitarisation of the State of Jammu and Kashmir has not
been reached because the Governments of India and Pakistan have not agreed on the whole of
paragraph 7 of the twelve- point proposals;

4. Urges the Governments of India and Pakistan to enter into immediate negotiations under the
auspices of the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan in order to reach agreement on
the specific number of forces to remain on each side of the cease-fire line at the end of the period of
demilitarisation, this number to be between 3,000 and 6,000 armed forces remaining on the Pakistan
side of the cease-fire line and between 12,000 and 18,000 armed forces remaining on the India side
of the cease-line, as suggested by the United Nations Representative in his proposals of 16 July
1952, such specific numbers to be arrived at bearing in mind the principles or criteria contained in
paragraph 7 of the United Nations Representative's proposal of 4 September 1952;

5. Records its gratitude to the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan for the great
efforts which he has made to achieve a settlement and requests him to continue to make his services
available to the Governments of India and Pakistan to this end;

5. Requests the Governments of India and Pakistan to report to the Security Council not later than
thirty days from the date of the adoption of this resolution;

6. Requests the United Nations Representative for India and Pakistan to keep the Security Council
informed of any progress.

The Security Council voted on this Resolution on 23-12-52 with the following result:
In favour: Brazil, China, France, Greece, Netherlands, Turkey, U.K. and U.S.A.
Against: None
Abstaining: U.S.S.R.
One Member (Pakistan) did not participate in the voting.

 

[Awesome]

Please show me the source which says Pakistan supported 'independent' kashmir in particular in 1947.

Show me the source which says Pakistan was against Kashmir's independence in 1947. Please.

 

[Patrician]

Show me the source which says Pakistan was against Kashmir's independence in 1947. Please.

My source (the original text of the resolutions) doesn't mention 'independence' for kashmir.


If it is not mentioned, it means it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, It means GoP's current stance that Pakistan will support an 'independent' kashmir is in itself against the spirit of the resolution which it proclaims to uphold.


HOW CAN YOU SHOUT ABOUT RESOLUTIONS WHOSE VERY TEXT YOU YOURSELF NEGATE?

 

[Awesome]

I PROMISE I'LL THANK EVERY FUTURE POST OF THE PERSON WHO COULD SHOW ME THE WORD 'INDEPENDENCE' ABOVE.

Your assertion was not that whether or not UNSC gave independence as an option to the Kashmiris, you are saying the option was there but Pakistan got it removed.

Pakistan supports Kashmir forming into an independent state, if India would let go of its totalitarian position and come to this compromise.

 

[Agnostic_Indian]

India is as much secular as Israel or Vatican. A country which is birth place of hinduism reverting to secularism is dream at best. Think of saudis can be turned secular??



Bangladesh has a right to choose whatever political system they want be is secular or islamic. The fact is that with a country of 90% muslim population the majority influences will flow and it will remain an islamic country unless it gets kicked out of OIC.

Read indian constitution.
and in bangladesh people their elected a govt and they seems to be in favour of SECULARism.

 

[Awesome]

My source (the original text of the resolutions) doesn't mention 'independence' for kashmir.


If it is not mentioned, it means it doesn't exist. If it doesn't exist, It means GoP's current stance that Pakistan will support an 'independent' kashmir is in itself against the spirit of the resolution which it proclaims to uphold.


HOW CAN YOU SHOUT ABOUT RESOLUTIONS WHOSE VERY TEXT YOU YOURSELF NEGATE?

Of course Independence would be a compromised solution for the betterment and the prosperity of the Kashmiri people. But both India and Pakistan have to agree to it.

Pakistan agrees, India doesn't.

If you don't want it to go Indpendent then conduct a plebiscite. You know how that will end - In Pakistan's favor. We're doing YOU a favor and making sure your egos are not hurt by Pakistan clinching Kashmir through democratic means.

So be thankful that Pakistan is giving you more options than you deserve.

 

[Patrician]

1947... Fledgling nation... 3 Rivers.. 2010: Times change.

Now, paladin, you have provided me with what I was looking for!

Times change huh?

So Pakistan's stance changed?

What if I say, India's stance also changed. What if now I say "India doesn't care about the resolutions, times change (because Paladin said they do) and hence our stance has changed."

Ab bolo?

 

[Patrician]

Of course Independence would be a compromised solution for the betterment and the prosperity of the Kashmiri people. But both India and Pakistan have to agree to it.

Pakistan agrees, India doesn't.

If you don't want it to go Indpendent then conduct a plebiscite. You know how that will end - In Pakistan's favor. We're doing YOU a favor and making sure your egos are not hurt by Pakistan clinching Kashmir through democratic means.

So be thankful that Pakistan is giving you more options than you deserve.

Again my friend, you are digressing from the topic.

Pakistan didn't agree then or else it would never have accepted the resolutions itself.

The fact that pakistan accepted the resolution which doesn't mention 'independence' anywhere is quite liable to imly that it didn't support 'independence' then.

And if it didn't support independence then, how come Pakistan support it now?

 

[Awesome]

Now, paladin, you have provided me with what I was looking for!

Times change huh?

So Pakistan's stance changed?

What if I say, India's stance also changed. What if now I say "India doesn't care about the resolutions, times change (because Paladin said they do) and hence our stance has changed."

Ab bolo?

You haven't proven Pakistan's stance was against Independence yet...

You just made that up!

 

[Patrician]

You haven't proven Pakistan's stance was against Independence yet...

You just made that up!

My dear Asim,


Pakistan supported a resolution which doesn't support independence. It means Pakistan didn'y support independence at least back then.


What's so difficult to understand here my friend?

 

[Awesome]

My dear Asim,


Pakistan supported a resolution which doesn't support independence. It means Pakistan didn'y support independence at least back then.


What's so difficult to understand here my friend?

No it means Pakistan supported giving Kashmiris a democratic right to choose between India and Pakistan so that we won't have to fight a war instead. Remember that the UN resolutions were triggered by a ceasefire that India initiated, after Pakistan had taken the area which forms Azad Kashmir now.

It doesn't mean Pakistan was against it... Perhaps it never came up... Perhaps India was against it? I can make up stuff too. Stick to facts that are there in black and white.