Kashmir Issue - Choose a Mediator

[Spectre]

Hi

I know loads of Indians would curse me for this thread and quote Shimla Agreement but anyway here is my reasoning: Bilateral process has not got us anywhere because we are too emotional, lot of historical baggage, vested domestic interests etc. We have tried and failed for close to 40 years and as Einstein said trying the same thing and accepting a different result is definition of insanity.

What is the harm in appointing a negotiator - if it does not work we can go back to our old ways. Precedent established can be demolished. Worthlessness of UN resolution has proven that.

Now some Indians will argue, we are comfortable as we are and happy with status - quo. I would say why settle for something good - enough. Yeh Dil Maange More!!

We all can agree Kashmir issue needs to be solved one way or the other. For the skeptics in India here is why:

1. We spend precious resources (human, economic and political) in Kashmir because of threat from Pakistan which can be better utilized for development.

2. Army deployment in Kashmir has created a paradoxical solution - Army is there to kill terrorist but it is deployment of army itself which is making more militants.

3. People of Kashmir are not happy - Period

4. Enmity with Pakistan is denying us the precious short access to Afghanistan and CAR.

5. Huge market of 200 million people is present right in our background with whom we share cultural, lingual, religious and ethnic ties. If our problems are solved we can turn into biggest supplier for Pakistan.

6. Arms race and existential threat of nuclear destruction.

7. Rationale for Pakistan to keep sending terrorist or as they say providing moral support to freedom fighters.

8. Closure for 180 Millions of our own Muslim Citizens

@Capt.Popeye @levina @nForce @SarthakGanguly @Oscar @MilSpec @Armstrong @Jango @waz @Akheilos @Goenitz @jamahir @Geralt @Stephen Cohen @Saahil84 @Peshwa @dilpakistani@Samudra Manthan @xenon54 @Winchester @DESERT FIGHTER @Madali @New World @Not So Good @Akheilos @kaonalpha @RazorMC @doppelganger @Doyalbaba @saurav @cnleio @third eye @VALKRYIE @M.SAAD @Srinivas @Abu Zolfiqar @Goenitz @Syed.Ali.Haider @P.K.@Optimos Prime IA @Optimus prime @JEskandari @acetophenol @KingMamba @AgNoStiC MuSliM

 

[Capt.Popeye]

If you ask me for an honest choice...... then here it is ......... god

 

[Spectre]

If you ask me for an honest choice...... then here it is ......... god

Lol, let me delete something and put it over there

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Hi

I know loads of Indians would curse me for this thread and quote Shimla Agreement but anyway here is my reasoning: Bilateral process has not got us anywhere because we are too emotional, lot of historical baggage, vested domestic interests etc. We have tried and failed for close to 40 years and as Einstein said trying the same thing and accepting a different result is definition of insanity.

What is the harm in appointing a negotiator - if it does not work we can go back to our old ways. Precedent established can be demolished. Worthlessness of UN resolution has proven that.

Now some Indians will argue, we are comfortable as we are and happy with status - quo. I would say why settle for something good - enough. Yeh Dil Maange More!!

We all can agree Kashmir issue needs to be solved one way or the other. For the skeptics in India here is why:

1. We spend precious resources (human, economic and political) in Kashmir because of threat from Pakistan which can be better utilized for development.

2. Army deployment in Kashmir has created a paradoxical solution - Army is there to kill terrorist but it is deployment of army itself which is making more militants.

3. People of Kashmir are not happy - Period

4. Enmity with Pakistan is denying us the precious short access to Afghanistan and CAR.

5. Huge market of 200 million people is present right in our background with whom we share cultural, lingual, religious and ethnic ties. If our problems are solved we can turn into biggest supplier for Pakistan.

6. Arms race and existential threat of nuclear destruction.

7. Rationale for Pakistan to keep sending terrorist or as they say providing moral support to freedom fighters.

8. Closure for 180 Millions of our own Muslim Citizens

@Capt.Popeye @levina @nForce @SarthakGanguly @Oscar @MilSpec @Armstrong @Jango @waz @Akheilos @Goenitz @jamahir @Geralt @Stephen Cohen @Saahil84 @Peshwa @dilpakistani@Samudra Manthan @xenon54 @Winchester @DESERT FIGHTER @Madali @New World @Not So Good @Akheilos @kaonalpha @RazorMC @doppelganger @Doyalbaba @saurav @cnleio @third eye @VALKRYIE @M.SAAD @Srinivas @Abu Zolfiqar @Goenitz @Syed.Ali.Haider @P.K.@Optimos Prime IA @Optimus prime @JEskandari @acetophenol @KingMamba @AgNoStiC MuSliM

No country will engage in a Trilateral thing anymore. Both super powers have burnt their hands in the region. Plus, we are in the driver's seat. It makes no sense to give that up without a good bargain. We should accept that India and Pakistan are now two very different nations with increasingly different cultures and ways of life. Let them be.

Also never forget - 'Strength is Life, Weakness is Death.' The peace exists because there are nukes and because both sides are to a certain extent ready for the other. If the balance is disturbed, things will fall apart.

Being naive is no substitute to good intent. And Kashmiris are not the thekedar of the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir.

Thanks.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Lol, let me delete something and put it over there

No, you can add it...... while also adding Somalia and North Korea to the Menu of Mediators.

 

[Levina]

A mediator would not be able to solve the Kashmir issue....this is as much a reality as a talking turkey.
Had there been a solution for this gargantuan issue then India would have tried its level best to solve it. But there's none..the K-word will keep boiling till one of us (Pak or India) gives up on its share of Kashmir.

 

[SarthakGanguly]

A mediator would not be able to solve the Kashmir issue....this is as much a reality as a talking turkey.

That is obvious. If two can't, three definitely can't. For that to happen, one big power needs to restrain the other two. I don't see either India or Pakistan to submit to a third power voluntarily.

 

[Levina]

That is obvious. If two can't, three definitely can't. For that to happen, one big power needs to restrain the other two. I don't see either India or Pakistan to submit to a third power voluntarily.

Kashmir (and not its ppl) is the real asset. Neither India nor Pakistan would pay heed to Kashmiris and their requests.

 

[Spectre]

No country will engage in a Trilateral thing anymore. Both super powers have burnt their hands in the region. Plus, we are in the driver's seat. It makes no sense to give that up without a good bargain. We should accept that India and Pakistan are now two very different nations with increasingly different cultures and ways of life. Let them be.

Also never forget - 'Strength is Life, Weakness is Death.' The peace exists because there are nukes and because both sides are to a certain extent ready for the other. If the balance is disturbed, things will fall apart.

Being naive is no substitute to good intent. And Kashmiris are not the thekedar of the entire state of Jammu and Kashmir.

Thanks.

I think if asked countries would volunteer, some specifically for seeking global prestige. Iran deal has successfully proven that third party involvement can calm tensions during talks and a way can be discovered to address concerns of both sides.

While I agree end goal cannot be anything more or less than conversion of LOC to IB but there has been no movement on that front hence the need for a mediator.

Yes we are in strengthened position now - that means best time to play our cards? Pakistan is going to improve hence forth based on my observation of their policies. This i think is the most beneficial time to strike a deal when gap is the largest between us in terms of influence and economy.

May be i am a foolish Naive kid today but that is the hat i have put on for this say It is PDF for God's sake not parliament what is the harm in exploring options?

No, you can add it...... while also adding Somalia and North Korea to the Menu of Mediators.

I had asked Kim-Jong-Un but he is not sleeping well due to continuous propaganda blasting by S. Korean Loudspeakers, hence is unable to indulge in further shouting matches

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Kashmir (and not its ppl) is the real asset. Neither India nor Pakistan would pay heed to Kashmiris and their requests.

It was. Now the integrity of the Union is the most important reason. There are Muslim demands for separation in other isolated pockets as well. Where do we stop?

Plus the point that our conflict has kept us from removing poverty is lame. Korea, Vietnam and not to mention Japan, Russia and Germany all did good. Hell, even Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have done a great job. We have failed in improving our lot, because we simply did not do enough. That's all. No point blaming our boys at the front.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

United Nations. As far as Pakistan is concern we already have made the decision.

 

[ranjeet]

I suggest Bangladesh, they have experience of living with Pakistanis.

 

[Spectre]

It was. Now the integrity of the Union is the most important reason. There are Muslim demands for separation in other isolated pockets as well. Where do we stop?

Plus the point that our conflict has kept us from removing poverty is lame. Korea, Vietnam and not to mention Japan, Russia and Germany all did good. Hell, even Bangladesh and Sri Lanka have done a great job. We have failed in improving our lot, because we simply did not do enough. That's all. No point blaming our boys at the front.

My point is convert LoC to IB through mediation as that would involve some saving of face on both sides.

No one talking about changing current Indian Geography

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I think if asked countries would volunteer, some specifically for seeking global prestige. Iran deal has successfully proven that third party involvement can calm tensions during talks and a way can be discovered to address concerns of both sides.

While I agree end goal cannot be anything more or less than conversion of LOC to IB but there has been no movement on that front hence the need for a mediator.

Yes we are in strengthened position now - that means best time to play our cards? Pakistan is going to improve hence forth based on my observation of their policies. This i think is the most beneficial time to strike a deal when gap is the largest between us in terms of influence and economy.

May be i am a foolish Naive kid today but that is the hat i have put on for this say It is PDF for God's sake not parliament what is the harm in exploring options?



I had asked Kim-Jong-Un but he is not sleeping well due to continuous propaganda blasting by S. Korean Loudspeakers, hence is unable to indulge in further shouting matches

Pakistan has nothing to give. Only to take. End of bargain. That is never going to improve for Pakistan. Unless they take Kashmir by military force.

My point is convert LoC to IB through mediation as that would involve some saving of face on both sides.

No one talking about changing current Indian Geography

That is the present scenario. That is the Shimla Accords. You are back to square 1. If peace stayed it would have been converted to the IB by now. But Pakistan does not want peace. She wants the entire piece. Good luck bargaining with that.

 

[Spectre]

Pakistan has nothing to give. Only to take. End of bargain. That is never going to improve for Pakistan. Unless they take Kashmir by military force.


That is the present scenario. That is the Shimla Accords. You are back to square 1. If peace stayed it would have been converted to the IB by now. But Pakistan does not want peace. She wants the entire piece. Good luck bargaining with that.

What Pakistan wants is irrelevant, what it can get is relevant. What it is getting is an end to bankruptcy inducing arms race with India. What it is getting is relinquishing of Indian claim on G-B and their side of Kashmir. What it is getting is peace to deal with evil within