Kashmir is disputed territory, not part of India: Pakistan tells UN

[Tiki Tam Tam]

"Our founders" were very specific about Muslim majority states going to Pakistan and Hindu majority states going to India.

Kashmir was one of the highest muslim majority states on the subcontinent, then what happened?

You cant even play that card.

India has a higher population of Moslems than Pakistan. Now, what should that mean by your logic?

India only cares about land. How many people died in the Indo-China war? All for the sake of land I suppose.
Pakistan is in this for the people of Kashmir.

If one should use your logic, how many people died of Pakistan in the Kashmir Wars? All for the sake of land?

The wars are because of pursuing "ideals" and not land alone.

How many people died in the China - Vietnam war? All for land?

Once again, I think it would be acceptable for India to keep Jammu (its hindu majority as I understand), but Kashmir belongs to Pakistan. It did from the very start. Thats what the "K" in Pakistan stands for.

Odd logic that because "K" is name Pakistan, it should be Pakistan. "N" is also there. Therefore, should it be presumed that "Nepal" should also be Pakistan? "Pak" means Pure. Does it mean that all "impure" or those not saintly not have residence in Pakistan?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

China would not forget the good things Pakistan has done for China.

China appreciates Pakistan's friendship and ally.

China would assist Pakistan whenever possible.

Apart from such conciliatory statement as yours above, has China done anything for Pakistan during the Wars, when any such help would cause difficulties to India, though not insurmountable?

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

If maharaja had signed instrument of accession and it was legal than why India took the matter to UN and agreed on plebiscite? Nehru himself on a number of occasions promised people of Kashmir that they would be allowed to decide their own future.

If land cannot be divided on the basis of religion than why India invaded Hyderabad on September 13, 1948. Hyderabad state had decided not to join India or Pakistan and till 1948 was ruled by Nawab of Hyderabad. The Indians invaded on the pretext that the people wanted to join India. Why doesn’t that rule apply here?

India took the issue to the UN since Nehru wanted to project himself as a great leader in the lines of Gandhi, giving way to ideals rather than realpolitik. That is why he worked relentlessly for a Third World bloc based on the Panch Sheel. It is debatable if his attitude to project himself above national interest was worth it.

Hyderabad would be landlocked and had no hope in hell to survive! India would never have given it the status that Berlin has when Germany was defeated.

 

[Flintlock]

India took the issue to the UN since Nehru wanted to project himself as a great leader in the lines of Gandhi, giving way to ideals rather than realpolitik. That is why he worked relentlessly for a Third World bloc based on the Panch Sheel. It is debatable if his attitude to project himself above national interest was worth it.

Hyderabad would be landlocked and had no hope in hell to survive! India would never have given it the status that Berlin has when Germany was defeated.

I know I am going off on a tangent here....

I think Nehru' idealism did have some positive effect.
For one, it did elevate the respect for India in the eyes of the world.

Secondly, the non-aligned movement ensured that in the initial years after independence, when we didn't have the military or economic clout, no country was able to make India a satellite state.

Perception also plays a huge role in today's world, along with realpolitik. India was seen as a peaceful nation, with leaders lke Gandhi and Nehru.

Even today, India is seen as a peaceful country with no hostile intentions.

 

[UnitedPak]

I dont know why I am replying this to this since certain members on this board clearly dont have the ability to read my posts properly, but here goes.

India has a higher population of Moslems than Pakistan. Now, what should that mean by your logic?

1. India does NOT have more Muslims than Pakistan.
2. India has a much higher population growth rate than Pakistan, so it means squat.
3. A huge percentage of Indians Muslims converted to Islam way after the partition to escape their Dalit status, so your claim still means squat.

If one should use your logic, how many people died of Pakistan in the Kashmir Wars? All for the sake of land?

The wars are because of pursuing "ideals" and not land alone.

How many people died in the China - Vietnam war? All for land?

I clearly remember saying that Pakistan was in this for the people, and the protection of the rest of Pakistan since the Indus runs through Kashmir, and then to the rest of Pakistan. Then I said India was only in it for the land.
Then like a very wise person you ignored everything I said and made that stupid statement. I dont even know what point you were trying to make there.

Odd logic that because "K" is name Pakistan, it should be Pakistan. "N" is also there. Therefore, should it be presumed that "Nepal" should also be Pakistan? "Pak" means Pure. Does it mean that all "impure" or those not saintly not have residence in Pakistan?

I gave so many valid arguments on why Kashmir belongs to Pakistan, then at the end of my comment I stated that the K in Pak stands for Kashmir.
Like always you ignore the main arguments because they are too much to handle, and and make totally off topic posts by twisting my comments.
Same to Stealth. Thank you for ignoring every one of my main arguments.

Seriously, where did I say that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan because of the "K". Its obvious you are replying just for the sake of flooding this thread with pointless posts.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I dont know why I am replying this to this since certain members on this board clearly dont have the ability to read my posts properly, but here goes.

Indeed, if you don't know why you are replying, then why reply? Rather odd!

1. India does NOT have more Muslims than Pakistan.
2. India has a much higher population growth rate than Pakistan, so it means squat.
3. A huge percentage of Indians Muslims converted to Islam way after the partition to escape their Dalit status, so your claim still means squat.

Learnt a new word, 'squat'?

You are right, Pakistan has overtaken India as the second largest Moslem population of the world! Odd that you state that India has a higher population growth and yet Pakistan has overtaken India in the number of Moslems than what was before. One, therefore, wonders who is multiplying faster!

I clearly remember saying that Pakistan was in this for the people, and the protection of the rest of Pakistan since the Indus runs through Kashmir, and then to the rest of Pakistan. Then I said India was only in it for the land.
Then like a very wise person you ignored everything I said and made that stupid statement. I dont even know what point you were trying to make there.

It would require more than superficial knowledge to know what point I was making!

Anyone who has logic would understand. I was presenting the logical equation to your rather illogical contention!

I gave so many valid arguments on why Kashmir belongs to Pakistan, then at the end of my comment I stated that the K in Pak stands for Kashmir.
Like always you ignore the main arguments because they are too much to handle, and and make totally off topic posts by twisting my comments.
Same to Stealth. Thank you for ignoring every one of my main arguments.

If having "K" in the name of your country means that it is yours, then I am afraid that would mean the end of the world since any country wanting a aprt of another country would just add the appropriate alphabet and bingo!

Your argument, main or subsidiary, is equally on the same lines.

Why blame me?!

Seriously, where did I say that Kashmir belongs to Pakistan because of the "K". Its obvious you are replying just for the sake of flooding this thread with pointless posts.

If you do not understand what you yourself wrote, how can I explain it to you.

You flood the forum with inane arguments and which are rather quaintly infantile and hence what I reply appears to you as pointless!

Do forgive me for I cannot make it out when you are serious and when you jest!

3. A huge percentage of Indians Muslims converted to Islam way after the partition to escape their Dalit status, so your claim still means squat.

Funny that they did!

I presume that they did not know about 'Jajmans', and 'Kamin' or about "Ashraf" and "Ajlaf".

 

[A.Rahman]

castes among Indian Muslims developed as the result of close contact with Hindu culture and Hindu converts to Islam. It was man made innovation, you would not find it anywhere in quran or hadith.

so your argument of Islam promoting caste system is baseless.

The severity of caste among the Indian Muslims is hardly as acute as among the Hindus, with the practice of untouchability being virtually absent.

Pakistanis should feel lucky to practice their religion without the influence of Hinduism in Pakistan.

 

[EagleEyes]

Indeed, if you don't know why you are replying, then why reply? Rather odd!

Learnt a new word, 'squat'?

One, therefore, wonders who is multiplying faster!

It would require more than superficial knowledge to know what point I was making!

If having "K" in the name of your country means that it is yours, then I am afraid that would mean the end of the world since any country wanting a aprt of another country would just add the appropriate alphabet and bingo!

Your argument, main or subsidiary, is equally on the same lines.

Why blame me?!

If you do not understand what you yourself wrote, how can I explain it to you.

You flood the forum with inane arguments and which are rather quaintly infantile and hence what I reply appears to you as pointless!

Do forgive me for I cannot make it out when you are serious and when you jest!

Damn, if i have to edit your post. There would be nothing but a dot?

Cut it out.

 

[ejaz007]

If Nehru took the Kashmir issue to UN to project himself than he did that at the cost of India. Don't you find it strange that a PM is doing this or the instrument of accession had not real legal value because Maharaja only wrote letter to Indian Government after uprising by the people of the state to save his own neck? People’s uprising clearly meant that he was acting against the wishes of clear majority.

 

[ejaz007]

I also need a simple answer to my question from all out there especially Indians. Is Kashmir disputed or not? YES or NO please.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

castes among Indian Muslims developed as the result of close contact with Hindu culture and Hindu converts to Islam. It was man made innovation, you would not find it anywhere in quran or hadith.

so your argument of Islam promoting caste system is baseless.

The severity of caste among the Indian Muslims is hardly as acute as among the Hindus, with the practice of untouchability being virtually absent.

Pakistanis should feel lucky to practice their religion without the influence of Hinduism in Pakistan.

Oh yes, anything disgusting, blame it on Hindus or India.

Totally living in denial.

Indeed the Quaran or Hadith has no such references as caste.

Are you suggesting that Islam is not as powerful, as it is claimed, to keep the evil influences away?

Are you suggesting that Hinduism has still a powerful influence?

Pakistanis should be lucky? They practice it.

Pakistani Dalits Seek Rights In Islamic Nation
Pakistani Dalits Seek Rights In Islamic Nation Petition

Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) has said: "Halal is clear and Haram is clear; in between these two are certain things that are suspected. Many people may not know whether those items are Halal or Haram. Whosoever leaves them, he is innocent towards his religion and his conscience. He is, therefore, safe. Anyone who gets involved in any of these suspected items, he may fall into the unlawful and the prohibited. This case is similar to the one who wished to raise his animals too close to a restricted area, so that the animals may step into that area. Indeed for every landlord there is a restricted area. Indeed the restriction of Allah are the Haram." (Sahih Bukhari & Sahih Muslim).

 

[ejaz007]

Salim,
You have stated that “Pakistani’s should be lucky? They practice it.” Do you mean Muslims in India cannot practice Islam? You have also not answered my question.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Salim,
You have stated that “Pakistani’s should be lucky? They practice it.” Do you mean Muslims in India cannot practice Islam? You have also not answered my question.

You have not understood what I wrote.

Moslems of Pakistan are lucky was a rhetoric one since it was said that Pakistan Moslems are beyond the evils of Hinduism visiting them. What is meant by "Pakistanis should be lucky? They practice it" is very sardonic in content.

On the issue of whether Indian Moslems can or cannot practice Islam in India, anyone who keeps abreast with the times would know. In India, the Constitution has been changed to suit the Islamic jurisprudence! While such a extraordinary step was taken to suit the Deobandis and other Islamic active schools of thought, it was contrary to contemporary societal fairplay in existence and accepted in India. The Constitutional change, to appease the Mullahs, trampled on women's rights! It would be worth noting such a precedence has not been extended to other religious groups. To my mind, progressive Islam was done disservice.

It is also worth noting that while in India, the Constitution is changed to suit Islamic schools of interpretation, in Pakistan the Hudood is implemented and then with the death of the most Islamic of Presidents of Pakistan, General Zia, it is actively worked against and change demanded to the Sharia Law! I commend Gen Musharraf for putting social necessities above the Sharia, even though it is going against the Sharia!

In other words, India bends backward to appease those of Islam who wish to be blind to contemporary societal needs, while Pakistan, a avowed Islamic state, is bold to repeal the issues of the Sharia which are archaic and not in keeping with the times.

Thus, Pakistan is more modern and progressive in thought than India in so far as Islamic rights are concerned since India prefers to be retrograde and allows Moslem, under the pressure of the Mullahs, to be herded into the medieval times when Islam is the issue! Sort of like, "What Lola wants, Lola gets!"

I hope that answers your query.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

I also need a simple answer to my question from all out there especially Indians. Is Kashmir disputed or not? YES or NO please.

To the best of my knowledge, from the Indian point of view - NO.

 

[Tiki Tam Tam]

Damn, if i have to edit your post. There would be nothing but a dot?

Cut it out.

If I post a reply to a post which is worth a dot, then the post that is worth a dot should also become a dot.

If so, no quibbles on fairplay!