Kashmir front - High Wing loading JF17, F-16 and Mi35

[GuardianRED]

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com...ty-could-go-up-to-75/articleshow/50075387.cms

An in close to war training exercise - Red Flag - 100% avaliability!

 

[Flash_Ninja]

Though the Jf17 the engine does have a lower thrust in comparison to other modern fighters, its low weight, and its aerodynamic profile means for take off it can be pretty nimble:

Once in the air it can make use of its higher altitude, and maneuvering to its advantage.

The Mi-35 i agree is a notoriously slow and bulky aircraft, but its primary function is for troop transport and in that capacity its functional, for the war on terror they are great aircraft as they are fairly low cost to maintain, and provide a tactical advantage in areas with inhospitable terrain such as Baluchistan or Waziristan.

Aircraft in inventory which are better suited to reconnaissance and attack in the Kashmir region are the bell helis and cobra attack helicopters (along with the new viper helis), both cobra and viper helicopters are superior the the LCH heli, and even though the bell helicopters are outdated they have been upgraded with modern equipment like infrared cameras and such.

It should also be noted that the primary doctrine of the Armed forces in Kashmir is defense rather than offense, and I think the current aircraft are suitable to suit this, while the older aircraft are well purposed to fight militants for the time being. Perhaps as older aircraft get phased out, more newer (maybe domestic?) aircraft will be inducted which are better suited to the Kashmir environment.

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

your so called long range fighter has less than 50% availability for sortie generation while our has more than 90%.

I have just started,

sir please if you can stay on topic, if you are this much insecure about your d!ck measurement there are plenty of other threads to feast on, you are in PDF think tank, please stay on topic.

Indians always making their own fairy tale war stories , laughing by themselves, crying by themselves, trolling by themselves and being left alone by themselves never talk about peace so many behind the screen hero's here talk about friendship and peace for once rather then talking about star wars. War is nothing pretty their will be massive damage on sides a lot of lives lost and etc lets hope and pray for peace for once.

What was that? and how is it related even remotely to thread? are you posting just for sake of posting? stay on topic if you can and please dont reply to this.

@waz please see to it, there was a reason I posted this in Indian defence forum to attract less trolls but someone moved it into the troll kingdom. Please whoever moved this remove unrelated posts too.

 

[PakSword]

There is a reason that PAF is so content about the performance and abilities of JFT and "others" wanting a detailed inspection of this beast.

 

[R!CK]

How is the performance of F-16 MLU on higher altitude air bases? Im assuming block 52s should be fine, but do they operate a different engine in PAF fleet? Any idea anyone?
Our Migs except Mig 29 wasn't really effective that high up, so I'm assuming PAF Mirages and F7 to have same problem.

Good Day!

 

[BlackOpsIndia]

How is the performance of F-16 MLU on higher altitude air bases? Im assuming block 52s should be fine, but do they operate a different engine in PAF fleet? Any idea anyone?
Our Migs except Mig 29 wasn't really effective that high up, so I'm assuming PAF Mirages and F7 to have same problem.

Good Day!

F16 got good amount of thrust, a powerful engine and bit extra wing area. The engine is powerful enough to overcome any problem created by low wing area but it still require a longer runway cuz wing area play a very significant role in lift off.

 

[SQ8]

A point conveniently omitted by all in trying to bias out the scenario(IMHO redundant and ridiculous if the whole confinement is Kashmir) is that there will be around 80 F-16s focused on being the main OCA counterpunch that might operate in that area. There is a reason for the large number of JDAM kits.

Although all aircraft have operated out of Skardu at one time or another, the focus of the Skardu base is for point defence operations and it is likely that F-7PGs rather than other jets might be based there due to the terrain favoring their suited tactic of Ambush CAP. If anything, response time for that sector is generally based on luck with radars placed on most anticipated approaches.

Any strikes on IAF targets in the north will be focused on aircraft operating out of MoBs to the south or other dispersal sites less high up.
Another conveniently omitted point is the overall distance to the current target AO. flight time from PAF Peshawar is to Srinagar is around 25 minutes at best at 380knots average(including cruise time and ingress) on a hi-lo-lo-hi mission.
The aircraft dont even have to return to Peshawar as they can recover at the countless airfields PAF has.

So the whole issue of high and low loading is piecemeal at best and that too on the JF-17 as if it is all the PAF will have.

As for the Mi-35, they are for FATA. The PA has not generally used gunships at that altitude and if it does,the likely usage will be newer assets which could by either the AH-1Z, T-129 or Z-10.. the Fennecs too can operate and provide light support at those altitudes.

As for the usual "Tumhara Kutta Kutta and Mera Kutta Tommy" arguments by the Indians on suvivability and all; I trust the war-fighters and their assessments.. and these are war-fighters from the PAF, USAF and two IAF offficers. Their assessments are FAR FAR different from any of the stupidly nationalistic observations from most members besides our TTA's and I wont be indulging in it.

Ironically, my somewhat attempt at simulation was not that far from their assessment.

F16 got good amount of thrust, a powerful engine and bit extra wing area. The engine is powerful enough to overcome any problem created by low wing area but it still require a longer runway cuz wing area play a very significant role in lift off.

Skardu has enough to have F-16s taking off with 4x 500 pound bombs, 2 AIM-120s and 2 AIM-9s in the upcoming exersizes.

 

[Spectre]

A point conveniently omitted by all in trying to bias out the scenario(IMHO redundant and ridiculous if the whole confinement is Kashmir) is that there will be around 80 F-16s focused on being the main OCA counterpunch that might operate in that area. There is a reason for the large number of JDAM kits.

Although all aircraft have operated out of Skardu at one time or another, the focus of the Skardu base is for point defence operations and it is likely that F-7PGs rather than other jets might be based there due to the terrain favoring their suited tactic of Ambush CAP. If anything, response time for that sector is generally based on luck with radars placed on most anticipated approaches.

Any strikes on IAF targets in the north will be focused on aircraft operating out of MoBs to the south or other dispersal sites less high up.
Another conveniently omitted point is the overall distance to the current target AO. flight time from PAF Peshawar is to Srinagar is around 25 minutes at best at 380knots average(including cruise time and ingress) on a hi-lo-lo-hi mission.
The aircraft dont even have to return to Peshawar as they can recover at the countless airfields PAF has.

So the whole issue of high and low loading is piecemeal at best and that too on the JF-17 as if it is all the PAF will have.

As for the Mi-35, they are for FATA. The PA has not generally used gunships at that altitude and if it does,the likely usage will be newer assets which could by either the AH-1Z, T-129 or Z-10.. the Fennecs too can operate and provide light support at those altitudes.

As for the usual "Tumhara Kutta Kutta and Mera Kutta Tommy" arguments by the Indians on suvivability and all; I trust the war-fighters and their assessments.. and these are war-fighters from the PAF, USAF and two IAF offficers. Their assessments are FAR FAR different from any of the stupidly nationalistic observations from most members besides our TTA's and I wont be indulging in it.

Ironically, my somewhat attempt at simulation was not that far from their assessment.


Skardu has enough to have F-16s taking off with 4x 500 pound bombs, 2 AIM-120s and 2 AIM-9s in the upcoming exersizes.

Few points @Oscar which you very well know

1. If Aircrafts are being used (officially and large scale) then it is a full out war and not a limited skirmish a' la Kargil/Siachin

2. In case of all out war everything is in play which paradoxically makes fighter jets if not redundant then limited in scope.

Fog of war sets in, missiles starts flying, politicians are sweating, generals are smoking, fingers are twitching so who cares if some jets are buzzing

 

[TOPGUN]

Though the Jf17 the engine does have a lower thrust in comparison to other modern fighters, its low weight, and its aerodynamic profile means for take off it can be pretty nimble:

Once in the air it can make use of its higher altitude, and maneuvering to its advantage.

The Mi-35 i agree is a notoriously slow and bulky aircraft, but its primary function is for troop transport and in that capacity its functional, for the war on terror they are great aircraft as they are fairly low cost to maintain, and provide a tactical advantage in areas with inhospitable terrain such as Baluchistan or Waziristan.

Aircraft in inventory which are better suited to reconnaissance and attack in the Kashmir region are the bell helis and cobra attack helicopters (along with the new viper helis), both cobra and viper helicopters are superior the the LCH heli, and even though the bell helicopters are outdated they have been upgraded with modern equipment like infrared cameras and such.

It should also be noted that the primary doctrine of the Armed forces in Kashmir is defense rather than offense, and I think the current aircraft are suitable to suit this, while the older aircraft are well purposed to fight militants for the time being. Perhaps as older aircraft get phased out, more newer (maybe domestic?) aircraft will be inducted which are better suited to the Kashmir environment.

What is that read it and understand it... plus you don't tell me to stay on topic its the other way around !!

 

[DESERT FIGHTER]

How is the performance of F-16 MLU on higher altitude air bases? Im assuming block 52s should be fine, but do they operate a different engine in PAF fleet? Any idea anyone?
Our Migs except Mig 29 wasn't really effective that high up, so I'm assuming PAF Mirages and F7 to have same problem.

Good Day!

MLU are essential upgraded to block 52+ standards .. Same engine,avionics,radar etc... The only thing they lack compared to 52+ is CFTs.

 

[SQ8]

Few points @Oscar which you very well know

1. If Aircrafts are being used (officially and large scale) then it is a full out war and not a limited skirmish a' la Kargil/Siachin

2. In case of all out war everything is in play which paradoxically makes fighter jets if not redundant then limited in scope.

Fog of war sets in, missiles starts flying, politicians are sweating, generals are smoking, fingers are twitching so who cares if some jets are buzzing

1. Kargil had aircraft from both sides utilized; please see ACdre Tufail;s writeup.
2. Not exactly, it is no secret that simply due to numbers if not quality; in an all out the PAF will be done for within a week in its effective presence over the front lines - but then the nukes are out by then. Unrelated as such, but it is a big factor as to the whole "cold start"(or reduced deployment time) hoopla that came up. Any thing that is all out is nuclear and hence unlikely to occur because -umm- nobody wants tens of millions to burn unlike many of your internet warrior countrymen here and mine as well.
2-a. A limited skirmish favors the PAF since it continues to hold a strong edge in sortie rate and mission availability over the IAF. Currently both through better aircraft readiness and even in the future due to greater pilot to asset ratio. That ensures a consistent 1 to 1 ratio(or better) in day or two day limited scope engagements.


The Fog of war does set in but in today's India Pakistan conflict the Fog will not be an actual fog of not knowing where the enemy is but what is he doing. Both sides have seriously sophisticated surveillance on each other's border and in cases extends well into each others territory by a few hundred km.

This in a way has made tense situations more dangerous as both sides are very twitchy and then will react to even paralell flights to the border with swashbuckling.

 

[khanmubashir]

I have no doubt regarding that. We have similar plans for our Tejas.

What both these aircrafts suffer from is the range limitations by the virtue of them being smaller and lighter aircrafts. This is something which cannot be easily modified if ever.

For Pakistan the range issue is ever more acute with India being much larger in size thus necessitating deeper strikes. Central India onwards to the south if Pakistan wishes to strike Indian installations - pilots would have to be prepared for a one way trip specially for your JF-17s where as most of Indian aircrafts like Mirages, Su-30 etc can strike quite deep within Pakistan and still hope to make it back.

I hope you understand this critical limitation because this allows India to position it's jets further back and still be in range while denying Pakistan that luxury.

cfts block 3 & beyond

This thread is not about glory or weakness of JF17 but about a certain design aspect please stay on that if you can else dont post and derail.

While reading about Pakistan defence procurement and equipment I come across this thought many times, PDF seems to be a good place where experienced professionals can help me understand it better.

Right from '47 attack on Kashmir, Pakistan had tried various strategies to conquer Kashmir irrespective of means and so far all our conflicts/wars are more concentrated in that particular area. Whenever there will be next war it will again concentrated more in Kashmir as opening another front in Punjab, Rajasthan or Gujarat wont be possible for Pakistan and its more like an advantage of India to open these front. Having said that our future conflict/war is generally limited to high altitude warfare in Kashmir.

Now when the objective is clear the preparedness or doctrine will be accordingly but while examining some important assets of Pakistan I am little surprised that is just opposite to it, I will take just two examples here.

JF17 :

Keeping aside all the who wha of trolls, I would like to talk about it more objectively and its role. As I have said Indo-Pak war is more limited to Kashmir domain and its India that is more likely to open another front on low altitude International border rather than Pakistan, I would like to know how will JF 17 fare in Kashmir.

Two basic aspect I would like to discuss about is:
1) Wing area of JF-17 is just 24.4 sq.mtr. which makes it ridiculously high wing loading which in turn favors it at supersonic speeds but induce a big penalty during take off.

2) Engine of JF17, PAF have so far miraculously managed low crash rate even with single engine jet of Russian engine (kudos to them) but the thrust of RD 93 coupled with low wing area makes it even more grim to take off with high loads and at high altitudes I wonder will it ever take off with all 7 hardpoints occupied with full load even with KM's long airstrip.

I would like to know why PAF preferred a low wing area and low powered jet as its backbone of airforce when they are most likely to fight in high altitude only and these two factors combined induces penalty on performance in those altitudes.

Beside the low number of Airbase in Kashmir, I am yet to see JF17 in Kashmir area (if anyone else have link of performance please share.). The JF17 bases are in Karachi, Peshawar and none in Kashmir or any mountainous area (info based upon wikipedia).

Mi35 :

This is again a heavy beast, though only 4 are on order, Pak will buy more in future for sure. Now they are kept for western border of Pakistan, mostly for anti terror ops but a machine of this caliber limited just to no air threat Jihadis is not wasting the capability of it? Wouldn't it be good with limited resources to buy more versatile or multirole machines that can help Pakistan in Kashmir, the only place they need serious power.

We have to use Mi17 last time in Kargil even after having Mi 35.

They again cant be used in Kashmir against India.


Now comparing this to India, which is most probably preparing exclusively for high altitude warfare with low wing loading Tejas or double engine long range Su30MKI and high altitude gunship LCH it seems India is on right track for mountainous warfare. While PAF doctrine/preparedness looks like mystery that how will they fight in Kashmir with old F-16 against Flankers and other IAF assets.


I would like to keep this discussion more of academic than troll fest, tagging a few username I know please add more and if there is mod please keep it clean. @MilSpec @hellfire @PARIKRAMA @MastanKhan

high altitude bases always take tool on man and machine yes it will reduce service life & over all performance of equip but 2 think this renders the equip useless is naive history is filled with instances of using tech in roles their specs were not meant 2 b and improvements r being made new blocks etc and jf 17 will b most numerous jet but not only 1 j31 tfx and some other option yet 2 made public

 

[Spectre]

1. Kargil had aircraft from both sides utilized; please see ACdre Tufail;s writeup.
2. Not exactly, it is no secret that simply due to numbers if not quality; in an all out the PAF will be done for within a week in its effective presence over the front lines - but then the nukes are out by then. Unrelated as such, but it is a big factor as to the whole "cold start"(or reduced deployment time) hoopla that came up. Any thing that is all out is nuclear and hence unlikely to occur because -umm- nobody wants tens of millions to burn unlike many of your internet warrior countrymen here and mine as well.
2-a. A limited skirmish favors the PAF since it continues to hold a strong edge in sortie rate and mission availability over the IAF. Currently both through better aircraft readiness and even in the future due to greater pilot to asset ratio. That ensures a consistent 1 to 1 ratio(or better) in day or two day limited scope engagements.


The Fog of war does set in but in today's India Pakistan conflict the Fog will not be an actual fog of not knowing where the enemy is but what is he doing. Both sides have seriously sophisticated surveillance on each other's border and in cases extends well into each others territory by a few hundred km.

This in a way has made tense situations more dangerous as both sides are very twitchy and then will react to even paralell flights to the border with swashbuckling.

Exactly what I am saying.. Mian Sahaab will be out of loop when sh!t gets real , whom does Modi speak to? Some phallic obsessed general says look we have a shiny Brahmos, let's take out their Skardu or whatever base and get rid of those pesky jets and in response someone on your side get's an atomic erection - look we have Nasr! just a tiny bite..

I am sure the men are mature and in full cognizance of the consequences and the above is just a product of my paranoia but the thing is we don't trust each other. Pakistan in addition has blurred the lines by putting tactical nukes on the table. May the intent is to create fear and deter but one often forgets that with fear comes paranoia too!

 

[Dazzler]

An in close to war training exercise - Red Flag - 100% avaliability!

yep, try telling that to your fellow countrymen who have little to zero acquaintance with flying and aircraft maintenance. And the red flag example is ridiculous to say the least. The reality is quite the opposite. Try asking that to an honest IAF MKI crew member and come and argue it here.

sir please if you can stay on topic, if you are this much insecure about your d!ck measurement there are plenty of other threads to feast on, you are in PDF think tank, please stay on topic.



What was that? and how is it related even remotely to thread? are you posting just for sake of posting? stay on
topic if you can and please dont reply to this.

Mate, did you care to read the post to which i replied before calling your savior and tagging me as going offtopic?? Read both again to get ghe context.

 

[MilSpec]

JF17 :

Keeping aside all the who wha of trolls, I would like to talk about it more objectively and its role. As I have said Indo-Pak war is more limited to Kashmir domain and its India that is more likely to open another front on low altitude International border rather than Pakistan, I would like to know how will JF 17 fare in Kashmir.

Two basic aspect I would like to discuss about is:
1) Wing area of JF-17 is just 24.4 sq.mtr. which makes it ridiculously high wing loading which in turn favors it at supersonic speeds but induce a big penalty during take off.

2) Engine of JF17, PAF have so far miraculously managed low crash rate even with single engine jet of Russian engine (kudos to them) but the thrust of RD 93 coupled with low wing area makes it even more grim to take off with high loads and at high altitudes I wonder will it ever take off with all 7 hardpoints occupied with full load even with KM's long airstrip.

I would like to know why PAF preferred a low wing area and low powered jet as its backbone of airforce when they are most likely to fight in high altitude only and these two factors combined induces penalty on performance in those altitudes.

Beside the low number of Airbase in Kashmir, I am yet to see JF17 in Kashmir area (if anyone else have link of performance please share.). The JF17 bases are in Karachi, Peshawar and none in Kashmir or any mountainous area (info based upon wikipedia).
@MilSpec @hellfire @PARIKRAMA @MastanKhan

JF 17's operating in forward areas would preferably configured with 4SD10's (720, Kg's) + 2 Pl9's (230 Kg), and a 800 Liters Centerline drop tank (~ 672 Kgs with 95kg weight of shell and 576.8kg weight by 25-M82 density at 0.721 kg/l)
total weight in Air-sup configs would be around 162,2 kgs. As it is half of it's capability it would barely have any effect on it's performance in CAP and Area defence, for purely strike areas , it can run two Droptanks at wet stations from Chaklala or Kamra and still perform adequately with stand off munitions.

PAF doesn't operate any high-altitude forward bases to face any lift related issues due to engine bpc issues.