Karzai to ask for lethal weapons, won't mind Indian troops on Afghan soil

[ejaz007]

Karzai meets Indian leaders in push for military aid

NEW DELHI: Afghan President Hamid Karzai held talks with Indian leaders Tuesday, hoping to secure more military aid as he looks to beef up his security forces after international troops pull out next year.

An Indian foreign ministry source confirmed that Karzai had held talks late Tuesday with Prime Minister Manmohan Singh after a separate meeting earlier in the evening with his Indian counterpart Pranab Mukherjee.

But there were no immediate details about the discussions and officials said there would be no official statement as is customary after such meetings nor any plans for a press conference.

Officials had said before the meeting that Karzai would use his trip to India to drum up support from a long-time ally.

Karzai's spokesman, Aimal Faizi, said last week that Karzai would ask for "all kinds of assistance from India in order to strengthen our military and security institutions" during his talks in the capital New Delhi.

An Indian foreign ministry official, speaking on condition of anonymity, also said at the weekend that the discussions would cover a potential arms deal between the two countries.

"India is ready to meet any request that would strengthen Afghan security institutions," said the official.

India has been training a limited number of Afghan military officers for years at its military institutions, but has provided little weapons assistance except for some vehicles.

Speaking on Monday night as he accepted an honorary degree from a university in the northern state of Punjab, Karzai thanked India for its support since he came to power in 2001 after the fall of the Taliban.

"India, as a friend of Afghanistan, has made an immense contribution in uplifting its youths," he said.

"India has contributed $2 billion from the hard-earned money of its taxpayers for the betterment of Afghanistan."

Karzai meets Indian leaders in push for military aid - thenews.com.pk

 

[Secur]

Recall you told Digital that Afghans "did not learn" -- Are we better? From what you have written, it seems that it has all been one disaster to another, how very much like Afghanistan?

Anyway, back to the topic at hand, this unbalanced Karzai playing rogue - What's he going to get from the Indian, other than thanks for coming? Not much, actually nothing. look for noises making nice to the Iranians next.

I remember well , mate . Yes , somehow we are , muse , we did learn at times . From sanctions and American treachery . That is another story that at most important occasions , we were left but with one option . No other choice to make it simple . I am talking about the civil war in Afghanistan after Soviets left and the Op.Enduring Freedom after September 11 attacks . But we never learned to keep our foreign policy " balanced " and this is what saddens me .

I would leave the army part for another thread , seriously . Because that will derail the thread .

What opinion did you have when Karzai said " the US wanted bases - several of them " only to be met with a strong denial from the top American brass ? I know his unbalanced part , I just do not know where does it end . At " conjoined twins " things , at requesting " Indian military presence " part or the much awaited Tehran trip next . I personally , do not think he's going to get anything from New Dehli for some reasons . Cant he get better military aid from the EU countries who are actually willing to help him ? I see nothing of substance that the Indians can sell at the moment .

 

[muse]

we were left but with one option . No other choice to make it simple . I am talking about the civil war in Afghanistan after Soviets left and the Op.Enduring Freedom after September 11 attacks . But we never learned to keep our foreign policy " balanced " and this is what saddens me .
What opinion did you have when Karzai said " the US wanted bases - several of them " only to be met with a strong denial from the top American brass ? I know his unbalanced part , I just do not know where does it end . At " conjoined twins " things , at requesting " Indian military presence " part or the much awaited Tehran trip next . I personally , do not think he's going to get anything from New Dehli for some reasons . Cant he get better military aid from the EU countries who are actually willing to help him ? I see nothing of substance that the Indians can sell at the moment .

I'm pretty confident that this India trip is more show than substance -- While, I think, Pakistan do want a new relationship with India, a relationship where they allow uncontested, India to arm a potential adversary, especially when it cannot supply that adversary, that's just too "new" of a relationship with India

And the Indian knows this, if the so called Pakistan army can create the general impression in Pakistan that it has made peace with TTP, while at the same time persuading the Indian, the Russian and the Chinese and the Iranian, that the so called Pakistan army is a leoard that can change it's pots, well, that's a significant achievement

 

[rubyjackass]

That could be Pakistan as well, couldn't it? Digital Soldier may be more angry than rational in his post, but lets look at this beyond, us vs them, because as you can see, sometimes they are the same - wear are a peoples that agreed to lose a majority of it country to satisfy what exactly?? And we are a peoples who are not united in condemning sectarian hate organizations, heck our own army nurtured and created those organizations.

Look, lets for arguments sake say that it is may 2015, the most US and NATO are gone, and consensus is the US with regard to paying for a ANA is fraying -- and that increasingly Afghanistan is being run by war lords and the idea of Afghanistan as a state is one that is increasingly difficult to imagine, the ANA suffer many desertions and defeats

Quick question -- What do you imagine would be going on in Pakistan at the same time?????????????? Will Jihad fever have died down? Will sectarianism die down? Will international financial institutions be willing to bail out our non-tax paying behinds?? And will the so called Pakistan army really be willing to protect you, yes, specifically, you??

So, lets give Digiotal a wide berth, lets look at this less nationalistically and with more of preventative bent.

True man. Finally I saw one Pakistani who would accept that Taliban(both the bad and good variety) is dangerous for Pakistan. Most Pakistanis are just happy to have their leg burnt as long as the heat from it irks India. They are not seeing what happens when USA leaves. They plan to push out every last extremist into Afghanistan, like it is possible. Even if it is possible, it is morally wrong to wish upon someone what you don't what for yourself.

And they use a grand word called strategic plan for this drama. Like they have been masters at the game for decades. Somebody please them to stop boxing above their weight.

 

[Digital Soldier]

The Taliban aren't stupid.

They are morons of the worst kind on this planet.

 

[Digital Soldier]

So , your refugees in Pakistan parents never taught you any manners , kiddo . Why quote my post out of context when I actually said " Indian presence in Afghanistan is not acceptable to us " ? . Yeah , delude yourself about doing anything you like when majority of your country is still controlled by militants and there exists no Govt with any power .

I don't have time to type for you foool.

You have a pathetic habit of diverting the debate , first of all
Accept that you are a pathological liar .

I don't prefer to directly react the words of a hypocrite and idiot like you and this does not mean i am a pathological liar.

 

[Yeti]

You're comparing apples and oranges, Qatar is doing so openly and with US support. India is doing so secretly.

You're assuming to know what is best for India, as if you were in charge of nation and knew all of it's secrets.

Let's take a different approach to this, shall we? India may have some sort of contact (which I doubt), but let's say they do, now having open communication would be a bad thing for them, as it would jeopardize their relationship with the ANA and Afghan gov. They'd see it as India legitimizing the Taliban, and push the Afghan gov towards Pakistan.

Keeping your enemies close will get you killed, that saying has made no sense to me, so I take anyone who says it with a large amount of skepticism.

What regime? The Taliban don't have any form of real governance in the nation, besides just controlling land and taxing people.

Finally, if you can find the link, I would appreciate it.

I do not agree that having some sort of communication open would be a bad thing as having no form of contact as we did pre 9/11 did not do us any favours.

The USA knows all to well about the risk of terrorism faced by India if you remember the 2008 Indian embassy bombing in Kabul it was linked to the ISI through the Haqqani network and Taliban.

I am not saying that we should hold tea talks with the Taliban but in having a channel open with some of it's elements and that is also the view that many in our security establishment have been saying also.

The Americans themselves I must add have also met with Mullah Omar’s representatives, including Syed Taib Agha, a Taliban ambassador-at-large because there is a general view that the Taliban are not going to go away whether we like it or not so to ignore them and have no contact with them is a real mistake from a security point of view.

 

[surya kiran]

I'm pretty confident that this India trip is more show than substance -- While, I think, Pakistan do want a new relationship with India, a relationship where they allow uncontested, India to arm a potential adversary, especially when it cannot supply that adversary, that's just too "new" of a relationship with India

And the Indian knows this, if the so called Pakistan army can create the general impression in Pakistan that it has made peace with TTP, while at the same time persuading the Indian, the Russian and the Chinese and the Iranian, that the so called Pakistan army is a leoard that can change it's pots, well, that's a significant achievement

Indian agenda for Afghanistan is driven by the following :

1. Impact on Indian investment in Afghanistan
2. Impact on Kashmir

Both of these are dependent on how the new power situation plays out in Pakistan. The KP province will have IK at its head. Now, if they go for reconciliation with the extremist elements without disarming them, it is going to be the start of a new problem. This is going to be a more likely scenario.

Now, second question is how will the re-rehabilitation of militants happen? And will it happen. Easy solution is to re-direct their efforts towards a second target and the second target is quite obvious. Now this may not happen, but if it does there will be a re-action.

Indian supply of equipment will not be required in quantities. Why? The amount of equipment left behind by the Americans should be sufficient. Now, India could increase training programs and supply of choppers, that is a possibility. Also, I will not rule of Indian policy makers talking to Taliban elements to ensure protection of Indian investments. There will be speeding up of the Chabbar route and the taliban elements will get paid off to ensure smooth movement of goods.

 

[Koovie]

Some Anti-tank Missiles, artillery guns and some Akash should be a good start...

The Army desperately lacks ATGMs, arty guns and modern AA weapons and you want to send those things to AFGH. ?!?!

 

[jha]

The Army desperately lacks ATGMs, arty guns and modern AA weapons and you want to send those things to AFGH. ?!?!

Army lacks Next gen. ATGM.. BDL can churn out Milans as much as it wants to.. the same is the case with Arty guns.. We can afford to transfer some 105 mm guns..

Lets not forget that these weapons will enhance their preparedness a lot.. And they are our strategic partners. We are supposed to help them.

 

[That Guy]

They are morons of the worst kind on this planet.

If they were dumb, they would have lost the war already. In order to defeat your enemy, you must first learn to respect them.

 

[That Guy]

I do not agree that having some sort of communication open would be a bad thing as having no form of contact as we did pre 9/11 did not do us any favours.

Having an open communication is a bad thing, India will only face a backlash internationally.

The USA knows all to well about the risk of terrorism faced by India if you remember the 2008 Indian embassy bombing in Kabul it was linked to the ISI through the Haqqani network and Taliban.

ISI was never linked to them, it was only alleged. If there was evidence, why has India or the US never presented evidence to prove their claim? It's just scapegoating of the worst kind.

I am not saying that we should hold tea talks with the Taliban but in having a channel open with some of it's elements and that is also the view that many in our security establishment have been saying also.

I think you're confusing contacts with open dialogue, having contacts is fine, but open dialogue is not.

Please name me who in the Indian security establishment is suggesting such a thing. They need to be slapped on the back of their head for trying to mess up relations with Kabul.

The Americans themselves I must add have also met with Mullah Omar’s representatives, including Syed Taib Agha, a Taliban ambassador-at-large because there is a general view that the Taliban are not going to go away whether we like it or not so to ignore them and have no contact with them is a real mistake from a security point of view.

The Americans are trying, that is the reason why the Qatar office exists, but there is no evidence that they're getting anywhere with their talks. The Taliban look at the withdrawal as a sign of victory, which means that the US is only negotiating for a safe withdrawal, nothing more...but that's just me speculating.

Who knows, both of us could be wrong and Xenu the galactic overlord created this conflict to amusing him and his space minions.

 

[Digital Soldier]

If they were dumb, they would have lost the war already. In order to defeat your enemy, you must first learn to respect them.

They are not the main mindset, they are just programmed instruments that's why i called them morons of worst kind.

 

[ejaz007]

Karzai gives India military equipment ‘wish list’

NEW DELHI: Afghan President Hamid Karzai said on Wednesday he had given a “wish list” of military equipment to India during a visit this week, presenting a conundrum for New Delhi as it weighs whether arming the Afghan army is in its interests.

India wants to stabilise Afghanistan and is concerned about the resurgence of militant groups after foreign combat troops leave in 2014. But arming Afghanistan would alarm Pakistan. It takes issue with the influence of its old rival in Afghanistan. India does not want to get drawn into a proxy war with Pakistan, which has ties to the Taliban. India and Afghanistan signed a strategic partnership agreement in 2011 under which New Delhi agreed to assist in the training and equipping of Afghan security forces.

India has trained Afghan security force personnel in its military academies, but it has provided little military equipment, according to Indian officials. India’s Afghan strategy has centred on boosting its influence through economic reconstruction projects.

“We have a wish list that we have put before the government of India,” Karzai told reporters, adding that it was up to India to decide how much help it was prepared to give Afghanistan.

Karzai would not say what was on the list, but India’s firstpost.com website said it included 105 mm artillery, medium-lift aircraft, bridge-laying equipment and trucks.

The Indian government had no immediate comment on Karzai’s statement. Karzai’s spokesman said both countries had agreed not to discuss the contents of the shopping list.

An Indian government official said earlier that India had already provided some military equipment to Afghanistan but he declined to give details. He said he was surprised that Afghanistan was speaking openly about a weapons request.

India is not a major weapons exporter, and suffers chronic shortages of defence equipment itself, including artillery.

Afghanistan’s request for military equipment comes as its relations with Pakistan, which have been difficult for decades, are again at a low.

This month, Pakistan border guards and Afghan police clashed over a contested border area. The Afghan police complained they had been out-gunned and said they wanted heavy artillery and tanks.

Afghan security forces have also made no secret of their desire for an air force.

The clash over their border, which Afghanistan has never officially recognised, raised new tension between Afghanistan and Pakistan. reuters

Daily Times - Leading News Resource of Pakistan

 

[skysthelimit]

Why India is concerned about supplying arms to Afghanistan
May 22, 2013

Early this month, border guard Muhammad Kasim sauntered over to the Pakistani soldiers who had begun to erect fortifications near his dusty outpost in southern Afghanistan. He demanded they leave-and the words were followed by bullets.

Kasim was killed, and three other Afghans injured, in clashes that went on for six hours. Protestors have since marched through Afghanistan's cities shouting anti-Pakistan slogans, undaunted by a Taliban attack that claimed 11 lives. President Hamid Karzai has been riding wave of public anger, calling on the Taliban to “to drop their weapons against Afghanistan's people and aim at where the hostility is coming from”.

Karzai arrived in New Delhi on Tuesday, armed with a short but lethal wish-list that will let him aim wherever he wishes: 105 millimetre artillery, An.32 medium-lift aircraft, bridge-laying equipment, trucks. The equipment Karzai seeks isn't a military game-changer, but then the reason he wants isn't killing. The request is in fact a signal to Pakistan-a warning that if Islamabad continues to sponsor jihadists, the price will be a growing Indian military presence in Afghanistan.

India promised, in a strategic partnership agreement signed in 2011 to assist in “the training, equipping and capacity building programmes for [the] Afghan National Security Forces”. New Delhi, though, has stalled Karzai since his requests for military hardware were first revealed in November, 2012. Prime Minister Manmohan Singh's cherished pursuit of peace with Pakistan, the government feared, would be dead if India went down that road. New Delhi thus chose to dither-but it's running out of time to take a call.

]Hamid Karzai. Reuters. Hamid Karzai. Reuters.
Fighting along the Durand Line-the 2,640km. frontier drawn by imperial administrator Mortimer Durand and Afghan amir Abdur Rahman Khan in 1893, but never ratified by Kabul-has erupted periodically since 9/11. Last year, attacks by jihadist groups operating with Pakistan army support set off skirmishes which ran through the summer and autumn. In 2007, clashes broke out when the Pakistan army sought to erect fences inside Afghan territory in the Angoor Adda area, along the border with South Waziristan. In the summer of 2003, the Afghan government claimed Pakistan established bases up to 600 metres inside its territory.

In essence, Pakistan has been seeking to enforce the Durand Line, occupying positions vacated by departing international forces, and thus assert its sovreignity over ethnic-Pashtun tribes on its side of the border.

Kabul has, in turn, done its best to stop the line from settling. The message is simple: if the Pakistan army doesn't stop trying to install its jihadist proxies north of the border, Kabul will stoke Pashtun irredentism.

Last year, some thought the two sides had reached a deal. Pakistan promised to move incarcerated Taliban commanders to Doha, and thus facilitate negotiations between them and Afghan peace council chief Salahuddin Rabbani. In the event 18 low-ranking Taliban were released-but remained on in Pakistan, most without severing their links to the insurgency. Pakistan's Inter-Services Intelligence shot down Afghan demands for key pro-dialogue Taliban leader Abdul Gani Baradar. To make things worse, terrorist commanders like Islamist warlord Jalaluddin Haqqani continue to operate from safe havens inside Pakistan.

The key hardware Afghanistan wants include hand-me-down A2.A18 105-milimeter howitzer, a robust and rugged weapon India has used for years. The Afghan army has an estimated 84 second-hand A2.A18s-also known as the D.30-donated by Slovakia and Bosnia. The Afghan army also has an estimated two dozen 155-milimetre Korean war vintage M-114A1 howitzers. India is in the process of phasing out its 105-milimetre M.1954 130-milimetre with state-of-the-art United States-made M.777 howitzers, as part of an $14 billion programme.

In addition, Afghanistan wants urgent assistance to get its mothballed fleet of Antonov An.32 medium transport aircraft back into the air. Earlier this year, the Afghan army lost its second-hand Finmeccanica G.222 transports, after the United States cancelled the $317 million deal which had enabled their induction in 2008. The G.222s had to be grounded because of airworthiness problems in December, 2011 and March, 2012. The Afghan army is now forced to operate using a fleet of six Cessna 182 light transports, essentially commuter planes.

Karzai wants to have the six An.32s given to his country by the Soviet Union refitted in the Ukraine, where the Indian Air Force is upgrading its own fleet of 105 aircraft. Indian air force sources have told Firstpost that the An.32-which, brand new, comes with a price tag of $6-9 million-is a rugged aircraft that has proven itself in high-altitude regions with poor airstrips.

The Afghan army may, in the future, also consider requesting service infrastructure for its helicopter fleet India. The country now has 40-plus Mi.8/Mi.17 transport helicopters, as well as 11 Mi.35 attack helicopters-adequate to meet its needs. It is short, though, of engineers to keep the fleet flying.

For India, the costs of this kit are small change-but government sources in New Delhi say there are three concerns. First, no-one is sure the Afghan army will hold together. Now estimated at 352,000-strong, Afghanistan's security forces will cost $4bn a year to support post-2014. Participants at the North Atlantic Treaty Organisation's summit in Chicago last May agreed to continue to foot the Bill until 2017. Kabul worries, though, that the purse strings will soon be tightened. It's worth noting that Afghanistan's defence budget fell from $2.49bn in 2011, to $2.09bn in 2012.

In addition, Afghanistan's army is riven by the same ethnic tensions as the country. The army's strength is 38 percent ethnic Pashtuns, 25 percent Tajik, 19 percent Hazara and 12 percent Uzbek. In the event international funding for the armed forces dries up after 2014, the army could start collapsing back into the warlord militia organisations from which it was initially drawn.

Perhaps more important, there's no clarity on Afghan politics after elections scheduled for 2014. From India's point of view, the best-case scenario will an alliance that pulls together Northern notables, like former foreign minister Abdullah Abdullah, with anti-Taliban Pashtuns like Hanif Atmar. Talks are underway, but should they fail, the next Afghan president could be a pro-Pakistan figures like Muhammad Umar Daudzai, now ambassador to Islamabad. New Delhi doesn't, for obvious reasons, see profit in giving aid to a Pakistan-backed dispensation.

Finally, and most important, there's Pakistan. For its own reasons, New Delhi does not want to be seen as backing territorial revisionism in the region. It also worries that military support to Kabul could end any hopes of dialogue with Prime Minister-in-waiting Nawaz Sharif.

Indian-provided artillery hitting Pakistani troops across the Durand Line will, without doubt, kill off any prospect of forward movement in bilateral ties. It's also true, though, that bar ideological proponents of India-Pakistan peace, few think there's much left to be salvaged from the dialogue process. Ever since 2008, when General Pervez Musharraf was forced out of office, the Prime Minister's Pakistan policies have yielded diminishing returns-a point illustrated in stark relief by 26/11 and the country's accelerating tactical nuclear weapons programme.

New Delhi, not for the first time, thus has to make a hard choice. If the past is a guide, though, it will likely impale itself to the fence.

Why India is concerned about supplying arms to Afghanistan - Firstpost


Good analysis of India's options.