Kargil’s military success was converted into political defeat: Musharraf

[MastanKhan]

Sir,

Its not about Bangladesh being separate nation. You say Hindustan is a number game , same is applicable about your army. 71 saw forty thousand of your Muslim army putting down the weapons and surrendering to Indians. You seem to have too much expectation from your surrender monkeys, whose leadership are bloody property dealers and only good at milking Pakistan for their economic benefits.

hi,

A warm welcome to this indian forum run by a false Pakistani flag----by the raw agent named Hasan Behroopi who has been working for the isi.

Please feel at home and use as much profanity and vulgarity against Pakistani members, Pakistani armed forces, their dead soldiers---as a matter of fact you can degrade Pakistani dead soldiers and can call them all kinds of names and Mr Hasan Behroopi will have absolutely no objections---but would rather welcome your conjecture.

Comments against pakistani soldiers---like rotting in hell, will rot in hell, burnt to death, butchered and slaughtered enmase, tortured and murdered at will, incinerated and any other terms of degradations are alright on this forum---- @WebMaster does not have any objections---rather they are encouraged.

So----your first post----it is the perfect first post that is expected from an indian member who unknowingly came to a forum thinking that it was a Pakistani forum but hsa been duped because it is indian forum---.

 

[kṣamā]

Comments against pakistani soldiers---like rotting in hell, will rot in hell, burnt to death, butchered and slaughtered enmase, tortured and murdered at will, incinerated and any other terms of degradations are alright on this forum---- @WebMaster does not have any objections---rather they are encouraged.

So----your first post----it is the perfect first post that is expected from an indian member who unknowingly came to a forum thinking that it was a Pakistani forum but hsa been duped because it is indian forum---.

So, Sir I must assume that you might have over looked few of your innocent countryman's posts. Here, I have tagged them for you to read through them. You should see how gr8 the posts are. They are not only brimming with information , they provide a very vivid view of a professional army.

The Mujahadeen were sitting on the peaks gunning down the Indian jawans. The blood of the Indian jawans rolling down the mountain sides could be seen by the Indian generals from their base camps. So much carnage and attrition. As the Indian jawans were being lit up by lmg fire they were littered on the bottom of the peaks with bullet wounds and broken legs, while boulders and rocks were crashing down upon them. It was an utter massacre. The Mujahedeen also felt pity for the Indian jawans, and started to execute them out of mercy, while others gave them a chance to trek back to their base camps.

The Indian generals had never felt this kind of fear. It was an utter massacre that the upper echelon of the Indian military establishment never wanted to face again. Even with the assistance of the Israelis and receiving laser guided bombs, the IA jawans were massacred and the whole debacle could be surmised as a turkey shoot for the Mujahadeen and NLI forces.

We pray that the Indians never face such an onslaught and such brutality ever again.

I understand that you are in shock my little Indian friend. It was a sad day in history as the Pak mountain peaks of Kashmir were soiled with Indian blood. Take a deep breath.

And after the Indian jawans desecrated our Pak mountains with their blood, point 5353 is still with PA.

LOL.

These Indians are so fool-hardy. In the case of a confilict PA can bomb the Indians in Siachen into the snow and ice caves. We control the jugular vein for resupply and yet these Indian silver back gorillas keep beating their chest.

My Indian son. Hundreds of your jawans were riddled with lmg fire and yet you still come here and beat your chest? Your jawans fell to the bottom of these slopes with bullet wounds and broken legs, yet you still come here to claim victory? Your soldiers were killed off in mercy or told to run back to their daddy's base camps. In return, they came back with laser guided bombs and were still slaughtered like sheep. Only when mujahadeen were ordered to vacate their positions did your army fire on them, shooting them in the back. Have some decency.

Your own generals were brought to court for the negligence and intelligence failures of your top brass.

Your Indian jawans were slaughtered like sheep without a herder.

Asking an Indian to have shame is akin to asking the universe to be one dimensional.

It's been over ten years, my little Indian friend. None of these thousands of soldiers were reported by the media. Forget about these phantoms, even their families have never come out in front of the media? Why?

Because these casualties do not exist. Only in the minds of bhartis, there were thousands of losses. I can't blame you, because you Indians are delusional. You disregard the fact that hundreds of your jawans were gunned down on the snowy peaks of the mountains.

Your military will never attempt to confront the Pakistani Army ever again, after this bloody nose.

We heard about your Ma bharat conducting surgical strikes in Pakistan after Mumbai, but again fantasies remained fantasies. Pakistan Army raped Indian army so bad in Kargil and 2002 afterwards that they don't even mention our military today.

If you Indians are feeling brave, then we are just across the border. Come anytime, but make sure you stinky Indians put some perfume on.

I don't know if the above post was due patriotism or blind hatred but you should understand that those feelings are also very much relevant on other side the border. If you want to criticize an idea, criticize it irrespective of it origin.

PS: You have not replied to my first reference yet.

 

[MastanKhan]

So, Sir I must assume that you might have over looked few of your innocent countryman's posts. Here, I have tagged them for you to read through them. You should see how gr8 the posts are. They are not only brimming with information , they provide a very vivid view of a professional army.

I don't know if the above post was due patriotism or blind hatred but you should understand that those feelings are also very much relevant on other side the border. If you want to criticize an idea, criticize it irrespective of it origin.

PS: You have not replied to my first reference yet.

Hi,

When a brand new member on day one on his very first post spews out venom while waving the Tiranga---it makes me stop in my tracks and re-boot my gps and I realize that I am now in hostile territory---and that is all I am saying.

 

[duhastmish]

Hi sir,

These idiots have got on your nerves. Happens I guess way more to me.

But just one thing lion doesn't have territory he owns the forest. You of all the people have the vast knowledge and always get into discourse with your ability to critique and challenge with facts, so a Pakistani or indian forum doesn't matter.

You are too cool, a hero. Atleast to some of us. No here you are not Pakistani alone I might be respecting you more than anybody else here.

 

[Donatello]

Kid,

If you don't even know that part---then is it worth you discussing with adults---. It is better for children to keep their mouths shut and listen to what the elders are talking about----.




Hi,

Absolutely----. As I stated before that what we did in kargil---this drama of cold start suits Pakistan better than it suits india---.

For us kargil was cold start----we achieved the goal at a time when our military over all was the weakest.

On a scale of 1----10 when you would rate the indian air force of that time at a 10---Pakistan air force was a maybe a 2 ---.

Today Pakistan air force is in the range of 8---8.5 to india's 10----. Once we see indian troop movement---we can move faster and strike first----.

Don't worry about all these indian kids talking tough over here----.

Most of these Indian kids here, would probably jump on the first flight to Europe or America if shyt really hit the fan. These same Indians talking about war, as if it's like making a roti, wouldn't last a day when they see the 2000lbers drop on their heads. They'll be the firsts ones talking about peace.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi sir,

These idiots have got on your nerves. Happens I guess way more to me.

But just one thing lion doesn't have territory he owns the forest. You of all the people have the vast knowledge and always get into discourse with your ability to critique and challenge with facts, so a Pakistani or indian forum doesn't matter.

You are too cool, a hero. Atleast to some of us. No here you are not Pakistani alone I might be respecting you more than anybody else here.

Hi,

How are you doing? As you say---some days are better than the others----and then you can also say----some days are worse than the others---sometimes you are the ball---sometimes you are the bat---oh well.

I appreciate your kind gesture---.

 

[Donatello]

Although I don't buy this military victory drumline that Ex President Musharraf like to beat, but I do think Kargil Was a big Failure on India's political and military leadership.

It was the perfect moment to do the same as done in 1965 and roll armor straight down the the plains and bring down the full might of our boots. The conflict should have been absolutely escalated, but BJP's right wing baggage ensured that political leadership did not wan't to even cross the LOC to blow up the fancy dress commando party.

Just going through some interesting posts, when i came across this. How naive of you to think that you are the only one who probably thought of the battle in the heat of the moment?
Ever occurred to you that Indian Politicians (regardless of who was in power), Indian Military commanders and the Intelligence community didn't think about opening an all out war? I mean, a freaking state that has qualms with you since it's birth, walked just right into your territory, and you don't want to payback?
Or, a BIG freaking OR, maybe they did think about it and held back because of actual facts? Or reasons that you and i don't know or don't want to know? The Bofors story is widely known, and how it saved the day for India....a firm blacklisted for so many years, gets to supply the ammunition again.....LGBs for Mirage 2000 procured from elsewhere and expended in Kargil.....handful of mig29s and Su30s.......what would you use to bomb Pakistan with? Mig21/23/27 that were your backbone and so easily shot down by Manpads in Kargil?

 

[Ajai Ghale]

walk just right into your territory, and you don't want to payback?

Whose Territory were those peaks in 1947 to 1965!?

Pakistanis should stop claiming that infiltrators successfully occupied Indian Posts,its beyond shameful.

 

[Force-India]

Most of these Indian kids here, would probably jump on the first flight to Europe or America if shyt really hit the fan. These same Indians talking about war, as if it's like making a roti, wouldn't last a day when they see the 2000lbers drop on their heads. They'll be the firsts ones talking about peace.

Pls forgive us and don't attack us

 

[MilSpec]

Just going through some interesting posts, when i came across this. How naive of you to think that you are the only one who probably thought of the battle in the heat of the moment?
Ever occurred to you that Indian Politicians (regardless of who was in power), Indian Military commanders and the Intelligence community didn't think about opening an all out war? I mean, a freaking state that has qualms with you since it's birth, walked just right into your territory, and you don't want to payback?
Or, a BIG freaking OR, maybe they did think about it and held back because of actual facts? Or reasons that you and i don't know or don't want to know? The Bofors story is widely known, and how it saved the day for India....a firm blacklisted for so many years, gets to supply the ammunition again.....LGBs for Mirage 2000 procured from elsewhere and expended in Kargil.....handful of mig29s and Su30s.......what would you use to bomb Pakistan with? Mig21/23/27 that were your backbone and so easily shot down by Manpads in Kargil?

You use the word "naive" and then post this?

Indian response especially from the BJP leadership of not crossing the LOC came from the overwhelming right wing baggage, along with lack of experience of being in power. And yes, India could have done what it needed to, it was in a better relative position than that of 1971 and "1965" Without counting the Su30K's, handful of Mig29's that you refer to still matched your entire fleet of f16's numbers and conveniently outgunned them back in the day, along with another 55 Mirages, 134 Jaguars, 200 Mig21, 55 Mig23 and about a 100 Mig27M's.
the lucky hit you got from the chinese manpad was because of a low level sortie and lack of intel. the only way 21's/23's/and 27 at their service ceilings are easy to hit with manpad if being countered by flying carpet mujhhideens...

So in all, my view is that Indian military and civilian leadership failed by not inflicting the maximum potential damage on Pakistan during the conflict, when Pakistan was clearly the aggressor. The broad level escalation wasn't that different from the massive escalation as a response for Brastacks and searchlight, when IA did not localize in akhnoor, they should not have done the same in Kargil. Pakistan was indeed successful or the first three months to ring in credible doubts about the nature of ingress in kargil, that is where India failed, it should have called the bluff from ay one and countered in Punjab and Rajhasthan.

 

[syed_yusuf]

You use the word "naive" and then post this?

Indian response especially from the BJP leadership of not crossing the LOC came from the overwhelming right wing baggage, along with lack of experience of being in power. And yes, India could have done what it needed to, it was in a better relative position than that of 1971 and "1965" Without counting the Su30K's, handful of Mig29's that you refer to still matched your entire fleet of f16's numbers and conveniently outgunned them back in the day, along with another 55 Mirages, 134 Jaguars, 200 Mig21, 55 Mig23 and about a 100 Mig27M's.
the lucky hit you got from the chinese manpad was because of a low level sortie and lack of intel. the only way 21's/23's/and 27 at their service ceilings are easy to hit with manpad if being countered by flying carpet mujhhideens...

So in all, my view is that Indian military and civilian leadership failed by not inflicting the maximum potential damage on Pakistan during the conflict, when Pakistan was clearly the aggressor. The broad level escalation wasn't that different from the massive escalation as a response for Brastacks and searchlight, when IA did not localize in akhnoor, they should not have done the same in Kargil. Pakistan was indeed successful or the first three months to ring in credible doubts about the nature of ingress in kargil, that is where India failed, it should have called the bluff from ay one and countered in Punjab and Rajhasthan.

india did not did it then because it could not; it was not for the love of Pakistan or international norms

india cannot do it now because it still cannot

 

[FNFAL]

still milking a mis-adventure..
Just die already...

 

[Providence]

You use the word "naive" and then post this?

Indian response especially from the BJP leadership of not crossing the LOC came from the overwhelming right wing baggage, along with lack of experience of being in power. And yes, India could have done what it needed to, it was in a better relative position than that of 1971 and "1965" Without counting the Su30K's, handful of Mig29's that you refer to still matched your entire fleet of f16's numbers and conveniently outgunned them back in the day, along with another 55 Mirages, 134 Jaguars, 200 Mig21, 55 Mig23 and about a 100 Mig27M's.
the lucky hit you got from the chinese manpad was because of a low level sortie and lack of intel. the only way 21's/23's/and 27 at their service ceilings are easy to hit with manpad if being countered by flying carpet mujhhideens...

So in all, my view is that Indian military and civilian leadership failed by not inflicting the maximum potential damage on Pakistan during the conflict, when Pakistan was clearly the aggressor. The broad level escalation wasn't that different from the massive escalation as a response for Brastacks and searchlight, when IA did not localize in akhnoor, they should not have done the same in Kargil. Pakistan was indeed successful or the first three months to ring in credible doubts about the nature of ingress in kargil, that is where India failed, it should have called the bluff from ay one and countered in Punjab and Rajhasthan.

It takes a lot of statesmanship and guts and foresightedness to bank on a partial support and making a calculative move. What india pulled in '71 was pure miracle. The '99 indian govt probably was bogged down by international pressure and inexperience and the hangover of the bus diplomacy !

 

[Shan-e-ibrahim]

So in all, my view is that Indian military and civilian leadership failed by not inflicting the maximum potential damage on Pakistan during the conflict, when Pakistan was clearly the aggressor. The broad level escalation wasn't that different from the massive escalation as a response for Brastacks and searchlight, when IA did not localize in akhnoor, they should not have done the same in Kargil. Pakistan was indeed successful or the first three months to ring in credible doubts about the nature of ingress in kargil, that is where India failed, it should have called the bluff from ay one and countered in Punjab and Rajhasthan.

What kind of Maximum damage?

 

[MilSpec]

What kind of Maximum damage?

Depends on the available capability to mount offensives to damage military command communication and offensive infrastructure aimed to aid in the Pakistani effort in it's conquest in kargil.

It takes a lot of statesmanship and guts and foresightedness to bank on a partial support and making a calculative move. What india pulled in '71 was pure miracle. The '99 indian govt probably was bogged down by international pressure and inexperience and the hangover of the bus diplomacy !

absolutely correct.