Kargil war was a total disaster, claims Gen Majeed Malik

[Mav3rick]

I am sure even people at your end will accept that our role was much more that playing second fiddle...Anyways Off Topic so let's not digress...I might be mistaken but i thought you were saying that Kargil was a military victory for Pakistan...Anyhow since you have rightly said here that India won the Kargil war there is nothing much to talk...So let me move on to the rest of the post.

You can claim your role to be whatever you want it to be, however everybody knows what happened in '71. And I have said on many occasions that we could not achieve our objective....our 'political' objective so despite our military victory it was an eventual loss. I do not really consider holding on to some peaks as a victory especially when we could not achieve what we had set out to do, i.e. force a Kashmir resolution.

No it doesn't and once again i would request you to study the terrain...it certainly helped us in cutting down the supplies and that was the major impact but it was not powerful enough to smoke out your men until they had the ammunition/ration and will to fight.. IA still had to fight the enemy head on where even a misfired bullet could easily result a fatal injury on our side.

Since there never was a plan to keep a logistic/supply chain, your whole claim of cutting supplies is pointless. Had there ever been a plan for continued support, Kargil would have ended in a logical conclusion.......most likely a final conclusion.

Look the pride of that battle was 120 men holding on to their positions irrespective of the fact that hunter's could not have helped them in the night. PA could have easily run over them especially given the fact that they were backed by tank regiment...so no i don't think the odds were even...

Just a few lines up you were singing the tales of terrain but your have conveniently forgotten how the terrain at Longewaala never supported Tank movement. Without the aid of terrain, even 120 'supermen' would have been unable to hold on to their posts. Indian soldiers fought bravely, but they too had the upper hand. And it was the support of IAF that turned the tables finally. All the 120 men could do was to hold on to their positions until IAF came to the rescue.

Look 5353 has been discussed many times on PDF as well so don't have the appetite for it anymore...However i will just say that if it is the most strategic peak then good for you...However just because you are holding on to that Peak doesn't necessarily mean that you won the war even in Military terms(if that is what you want to claim by bringing in that discussion)...

That's not what I wish to suggest when I boast that we still hold on to that peak. What I merely want to prove is that Indian Military was unable to push us out until we decided to pull back from many positions due to extreme external diplomatic pressure.

 

[Mav3rick]

Sir I don't know from where you are getting this 10 Squadron number when the only jets useful to IA at that height were the Mirage and we hardly have 3 squadrons of them. Our Mig 27 were totally found wanting at the heights of Kargil so were useless. Rest of our planes were in the air waiting for you F16s which never came. They didn't play any supporting role for IA.

150+ Indian Military Jets took active part in the Kargil war, that constitutes 10 squadrons.

See that's the whole point I am trying to make. Logistics!!!
What do you call a plan that doesn't take into account Logistics. E.g. the fact that you didn't have spares for your F-16. What kind of General disregards the aftermaths when the incursion will be discovered. Its very easy to get into anyone's empty house. The courage is hold it and claim it for your own and not run away. In any other country the guy who hatched and executed this plan would have been either court marshalled or hanged. In yours he became your president for 10 years

The plan was brilliant, it's execution was brilliant and it surprised the **** out of you Indians. Not only that, when your military endeavors failed time and again to re-capture the peaks you had to run to the international community for help. Our intention to go there was to find a permanent solution to Kashmir and not to start a war, had that been the plan things would have been very different at every level.

And you have been brainwashed time and again in to thinking that the General who later deposed the incumbent pm of Pakistan had executed Kargil conflict without the approval of civilian leadership. Infact, NS was removed in the coup because he had caved in the USA instead of holding firm. And the result, we still have a disputed territory!

Well then we will wait till that revelation comes. Till then congratulations for capturing 5353.

Yeah well.....

 

[KRAIT]

150+ Indian Military Jets took active part in the Kargil war, that constitutes 10 squadrons.
The plan was brilliant, it's execution was brilliant and it surprised the **** out of you Indians. Not only that, when your military endeavors failed time and again to re-capture the peaks you had to run to the international community for help. Our intention to go there was to find a permanent solution to Kashmir and not to start a war, had that been the plan things would have been very different at every level.
And you have been brainwashed time and again in to thinking that the General who later deposed the incumbent pm of Pakistan had executed Kargil conflict without the approval of civilian leadership. Infact, NS was removed in the coup because he had caved in the USA instead of holding firm. And the result, we still have a disputed territory!
Yeah well.....

India didn't run to International community. US intelligence came to know about that Pakistan is preparing its nuclear assets. Bill Clinton took good class of NS. He phone ABV, Indian prime minister, he just asked Bill, What he expects him to say. ABV cleared that if attacked India will do anything that needs to be done. Bill cleared it to NS that world community is against them and more attack on India won't go unpunished.

Rest is history.

BTW look at the end result. We all know who lost what. Listen to senior Pakistani posters who give rational arguments rather than emotional ones.

 

[Mav3rick]

first----Pakistan did not fight the Indian army to occupy the peaks......you went there without any resistance when we pulled back for the winter.......

when you at the top of a peak you are always at an advantage.......but you guys still were not able to hold that advantage .....dont tell that you had less supplies....you didnt have supplies because they were cut off of your supply depots were bombed by the IAF...that is war...

We never told you that we had 'less supplies', we had enough for our plans to carry through. And we were not able to hold on to all the positions because we were ordered to retreat by the civilian leadership of our country. The peaks that we still hold are 'in your face' kind of facts that Indian Military + IAF were unable to reclaim the positions and only got back what we left!

your army men were being bombed in Kargil and during that time where was your famed PAF? they were saving the F16s for later? only in Pakistan the military saves its war planes and lets it people die......even in earlier wars your PAF would do the first strikes and then go into hiding to save your planes (during that time ,when IAF attacks and gets shot down by ground fire....you guys say PAF has less aircraft loss hence i is a better force.....lol...you have less aircraft loss because for your PAF ,your aircraft is more important then the WAR itself)

Kid, Pakistans position was that it was the freedom fighters fighting at Kargil hence there could never be any support, especially from PAF! Good thing for you eh?

by the way .......have you guys decided on what to call those uniformed Pakistani people who fought and died for you? if so can you please tell us if you call them as terrorists or the Pakistani army? or is it that you guys dont find any difference?

Once it was time to reveal the secrets of the conflict. we reveled them what they were.......martyrs & heroes.

 

[Mav3rick]

Kargil war planned by Pak army senior officer and was fought by junior office and jawan. They were thrown into enemy territory and were later disowned them. Dead body of soldiers died were dumped to their home in night to avoid embrassement. No enquiry was ordered for those senior officers who are responsible for 4000 death in this.

Why are you blaming us for Indian deaths? We did not invite you to your deaths, you could just as easily have found a diplomatic solution instead of trying to be what you never were!

India didn't run to International community. US intelligence came to know about that Pakistan is preparing its nuclear assets. Bill Clinton took good class of NS. He phone ABV, Indian prime minister, he just asked Bill, What he expects him to say. ABV cleared that if attacked India will do anything that needs to be done. Bill cleared it to NS that world community is against them and more attack on India won't go unpunished.

Rest is history.

BTW look at the end result. We all know who lost what. Listen to senior Pakistani posters who give rational arguments rather than emotional ones.

You honestly believe that US intelligence came to know of the most closely guarded secrets of Pakistan? Preparation of Nuclear Missiles??? If you really believe that that I don't believe I can write anything to make you think otherwise.

 

[ares]

150+ Indian Military Jets took active part in the Kargil war, that constitutes 10 squadrons.





The plan was brilliant, it's execution was brilliant and it surprised the **** out of you Indians. Not only that, when your military endeavors failed time and again to re-capture the peaks you had to run to the international community for help. Our intention to go there was to find a permanent solution to Kashmir and not to start a war, had that been the plan things would have been very different at every level.

And you have been brainwashed time and again in to thinking that the General who later deposed the incumbent pm of Pakistan had executed Kargil conflict without the approval of civilian leadership. Infact, NS was removed in the coup because he had caved in the USA instead of holding firm. And the result, we still have a disputed territory!





Yeah well.....

Man you are talking out of your arse now!!

Which country did we run too?

Was our COAS in China, being shunted by Chinese, being told in no uncertain terms to lay off(where incidentally his conversation was tapped by RAW) .Chinese did not want to come near the mess you had you had landed yourselves into, with 10 foot pole.

Or

Was our PM in US, being humiliated by Bill Clinton, making of fool of himself, by claiming that his army is not in his command?

Your leadership was visiting these countries asking for some-kind of respectable bailout, not because you were winning the Kargil war..but because they had landed your country in to conflict, that you were ill prepared for..
Were loosing one peak after the another.
Had made a huge mistake claiming that your soldiers who were fighting were not professional soldiers but a rag-tag militia.
Such that you could not even defend your soldiers, while IAF bombed them or even accept their bodies.
Your Naval and airforce commanders were extremely unhappy, that your army command had chosen to delve your country into, what could possibly turn into full scale nuclear conflict, without even consulting them.

Truth of the matters is you were continuously loosing ground, where as entire world was criticizing you for your military adventurism , not even your closest friends wanted to come to your aid.
It was matter of time, before you were completely routed.

And you PM realised it, that is why he went to US(most probably to save his job), pleading for ceasefire. (excerpt of his conversation with Bill Clinton are widely available..It will bode you well, to read them.

 

[Night_Raven]

Your Naval and airforce commanders were extremely unhappy, that your army command had chosen to delve your country into, what could possibly turn into full scale nuclear conflict, without even consulting them.

PN was surely scared to hell :

Naval Operations
While the Army and the Air Force readied themselves for the battle on the heights of Kargil, Indian Navy began to draw out its plans. Unlike the earlier wars with Pakistan, this time the bringing in of the Navy at the early stages of the conflict served to hasten the end of the conflict in India's favor.

In drawing up its strategy, the Navy was clear that a reply to the Pakistani misadventure had to be two-pronged. While ensuring safety and security of Indian maritime assets from a possible surprise attack by Pakistan, the Indian imperative was that all efforts must be made to deter Pakistan from escalating the conflict into a full scale war. Thus, the Indian Navy was put on a full alert from May 20 onwards, a few days prior to the launch of the Indian retaliatory offensive. Naval and Coast Guard aircraft were put on a continuous surveillance and the units readied up for meeting any challenge at sea.

Time had now come to put pressure on Pakistan, to ensure that the right message went down to the masterminds in that country. Strike elements from the Eastern Fleet were sailed from Visakhapatnam on the East Coast to take part in a major naval exercise called 'SUMMEREX' in the North Arabian Sea. This was envisaged as the largest ever amassing of naval ships in the region. The message had been driven home. Pakistan Navy, in a defensive mood, directed all its units to keep clear of Indian naval ships. As the exercise shifted closer to the Makaran Coast, Pakistan moved all its major combatants out of Karachi. It also shifted its focus to escorting its oil trade from the Gulf in anticipation of attacks by Indian ships.

As the retaliation from the Indian Army and the Air Force gathered momentum and a defeat to Pakistan seemed a close possibility, an outbreak of hostilities became imminent. Thus the naval focus now shifted to the Gulf of Oman. Rapid reaction missile carrying units and ships from the fleet were deployed in the North Arabian Sea for carrying out missile firing, anti-submarine and electronic warfare exercises. In the absence of the only aircraft carrier, Sea Harrier operations from merchant ships were proven. The Navy also readied itself for implementing a blockade of the Pakistani ports, should the need arise. In addition, Naval amphibious forces from the Andaman group of islands were moved to the western sea-board.

In a skilful use of naval power in the form of 'Operation Talwar', the 'Eastern Fleet' joined the 'Western Naval Fleet' and blocked the Arabian sea routes of Pakistan. Apart from a deterrent, the former Prime Minister Nawaz Sharief later disclosed that Pakistan was left with just six days of fuel (POL) to sustain itself if a full fledged war broke out.

1999 Kargil Conflict

 

[ares]

It is strange, how many Pakistanis desperately want believe Musharaffs tale of events, that their then Prime Minister and COAS together hatched a plan, where they will occupy Kargil heights and cut of Indian link to Siachen and when they were about to win the war, their PM suddenly decided take trip to Washington. And there US president hypnotized him into surrendering his positions in Kargil and their glorious victory(which was just round the corner), turned into shameful defeat.

I mean how dumb are your people(do you think, your PM was) ..can't you people read b/w the lines??!!

 

[hellboy007]

Hey dude war is long over and its time to think rationally. If your army wanted to keep secrets then they would have chosen a more dignified excuse rather than declaring your own soldiers as mujahedein/ rag-tag militia. I Accept the fact that it was a tactical success in the beginning because of its shock and awe value but in the long run this plan was strategically nightmarish for your army becuz they were devoid of all air cover by PAF. Your own excuse turned against you and all your army could do was watch in frustration as peak after peak was reclaimed from them by indian army.
Period.

 

[IND151]

@ post no. 465> thanks for info.

 

[pakdefender]

Pakistan has got a foothold in that region, has built a road running up to the captured areas and we have establsihed permananet presence in Kargil.

After the offical declaration of the Kargil war being over , indians made many more attempts to take back the peaks that they were unable to take back during the war and utlimately gave up.

Indians failed to completly take back every peak and 1000s of indian troops lost their lives , not exactly india's finiest moment.

 

[Storm Force]

Pakistani ARMY over ruled the civillian GOVT by carrying out a military operation without informimg the majority govt or worse stil their AIRFORCE & NAVY.

they gave no thought to indian military response or the international pressure that would occur.

VERY SHORT SIGHTED plan kind of sums up pakistani situation in 1999.

THE DEBACLE left Pakistani with no hope to getting back saichen and THEY LOST USA support on KASHMIR for good.

GOOD MOVE MUSHARAFF,.

 

[Ammyy]

Pakistan has got a foothold in that region, has built a road running up to the captured areas and we have establsihed permananet presence in Kargil.

After the offical declaration of the Kargil war being over , indians made many more attempts to take back the peaks that they were unable to take back during the war and utlimately gave up.

Indians failed to completly take back every peak and 1000s of indian troops lost their lives , not exactly india's finiest moment.

Can you put source of your claim in bold ????

 

[Ehsan Riaz]

our generals and politicians always speak out when they either in opposition or out of scene.if they could not speak when they are in power and in service then they should remain shut and do not try to clarify themselves as if they were very vigilant and loyal for the nation.there is no gain of crying on the spilt milk.

 

[Mav3rick]

Man you are talking out of your arse now!!

Which country did we run too?

The countries you almost always run to, such as Russia/Israel and this time you got so desperate that you went to the US & the European Union! You created a false drama that the Kargil conflict could escalate to a Nuclear War where as Pakistan wasn't even fully invested in Kargil, we never deployed any air assets, we never deployed any military assets beyond the 4k-5k (NLI + Freedom Fighters) volunteers.

Was our COAS in China, being shunted by Chinese, being told in no uncertain terms to lay off(where incidentally his conversation was tapped by RAW) .Chinese did not want to come near the mess you had you had landed yourselves into, with 10 foot pole.

You mean the RAW that had no idea about any of Pakistans activities, ever? And we all know how respected RAW is internationally.....it's nothing more then a pathetic joke! And ancient Indian infrastructure tapping in to Chinese premier's communications. That's very believable!

Or

Was our PM in US, being humiliated by Bill Clinton, making of fool of himself, by claiming that his army is not in his command?

Your leadership was visiting these countries asking for some-kind of respectable bailout, not because you were winning the Kargil war..but because they had landed your country in to conflict, that you were ill prepared for..
Were loosing one peak after the another.

Had that been the case, India would have agreed to a ceasefire on her terms......but we all know what happened as Pakistan still holds on to Indian peaks that Pakistan did not 'abandon'! And the trip to US was to provide Indian Military a face saving for being unable to reclaim their territory from non-regulars!

Had made a huge mistake claiming that your soldiers who were fighting were not professional soldiers but a rag-tag militia.
Such that you could not even defend your soldiers, while IAF bombed them or even accept their bodies.

The claim that it was not regular military was correct, it was NLI and this unit was converted to a regular unit after the thrashing these non-regulars gave to Indian Military. Besides, not exposing everything was a military tactic. And you know what really is shameful, the running out of coffins for soldiers so your military cooked up the drama of Pakistan not accepting martyred soldiers. Yours is the country that gave the highest military posthumous award to a soldier who was still alive!!! How freakin hilarious are you guys!!

Your Naval and airforce commanders were extremely unhappy, that your army command had chosen to delve your country into, what could possibly turn into full scale nuclear conflict, without even consulting them.

Yeah, I guess that wanted a piece of the pie too while NLI was having all the fun! It was selfish of the army to do everything alone, they should have given some practice to PAF atleast. PN not so much as their main goal is defence.

Truth of the matters is you were continuously loosing ground, where as entire world was criticizing you for your military adventurism , not even your closest friends wanted to come to your aid.
It was matter of time, before you were completely routed.

The fact that we are still not 'routed' is a 'in your face' fact that it was you that was unable to gain anything worthwhile from a small force that was fighting without backup/support/logistics (as per plan) despite sending in 35k troops and 10 squadrons of IAF!!! I wonder how many soldiers made it back especially considering that such a massively populated country actually faced a coffin shortage.

P.S. By the way, why do you guys use coffins for soldiers, aren't they cremated (Hindu soldiers)?

And you PM realised it, that is why he went to US(most probably to save his job), pleading for ceasefire. (excerpt of his conversation with Bill Clinton are widely available..It will bode you well, to read them.

My PM did try to save his job by accepting American dictation to withdraw but you cannot hide your inability to gain anything militarily by lying about any pleading by NS for ceasefire. The only pleading came from your prime minister.