Kargil War - A research paper by US Military on High Altitude Warfare

[Windjammer]

If truth hurts then deal with it.

Why not go back to 1965 and see if that puts a smile on your face

Not at all.Those aircraft lost in the month of May,the real action of IAF started in June,the only change was to fly from High Alt and use of LGB rather than rocket salvos.

You are wrong in saying NLI/Mujahids withdrew by then because at least 300 ~ KIA (According to ex CIA officer and Photo recon) on a single Air strike on Munto Dhalo a major supply and logistic base for kargil op.

Benjamin Lambeth

In characterizing the attack as “perhaps the most spectacular of all the [campaign’s air; a serving IAF air commodore reported at the end of 1999 that it resulted in as many as 300 enemy casualties within just minutes.69 Figure 3 shows pre- and post-strike aerial imagery of the enemy camp at Muntho Dhalo. In the first image, a dense array of tents and structures, as well as tracks leading up the hillside from the encampment, are clearly visible. In the second, after completion of the IAF’s attacks, all that remain are bomb craters and rubble.

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Martyrs were given proper funeral including those whose bodies were never accepted from your side and yeah i/ve heard about a coffin scam but it has nothing to do with this thread.

Kargil tragedy: Dead soldier’s family still waiting to receive his body - The Express Tribune

You people are just BS masters, where it suits you then a ridiculous statement by Nawas Sharif is credible for you and what Kaiser Tufail writes about the IAF operations in Kargil is hard for you to digest. The picture you posted is of no camp but a fuel depot , are you that dense thinking that any force would camp so openly and widely in enemy territory or have so many men living near some fuel depot.
And talking about dead, you people didn't even accept your alive pilot in front of the media as no one from Indian Embassy turned up to receive him and he had to be handed over to Red Cross.
BTW, where was your superior air force when a Pakistani Helo landed 11 KMs inside your territory, took off and repeated same the next day. You people need some introspection before chest thumping on a conflict , outcome of which is disputed by your own media and sources.

Musharraf spent a night in India ahead of Kargil | Daily Mail OnlineKargil.html

 

[Jamwal's]

Why not go back to 1965

What about 1965 ! Make separate therad but since you already mentioned it - Pak started the 65 war on the back of Shinny Pattons,155 mm and Starfighters hoping to gain Kashmir but after loosing more men,fertile plains in lahore and sialkot sector with 1/3 of tanks lost,signed Shimla agreement.

Gained nothing.

The picture you posted is of no camp but a fuel depot.

You are using your fingers faster than your Brain.Muntho Dhalo was a biggest logistic Base of NLI a fact corroborated by independent reports and IAF reconnaissance.

You also want to watch the confession of POW Hunar Shah 5th NLI who said that his entire unit of 200 Men KIA,they didn't even had food to eat since their supply depot was destroyed,he was caught hiding behind a boulder and wounded.

You people need some introspection before chest thumping on a conflict.

Kargil was misadventure like 1965. Pak lost hundreds of Soldiers (officially) and gained nothing,to me its an achievement to regain those heights when the ratio is 1:9 against the attackers and our troops scaled them with 25 kg weight with virtually no cover.

And talking about dead, you people didn't even accept your alive pilot in front of the media as no one from Indian Embassy turned up to receive him and he had to be handed over to Red Cross.

Pak wanted to make a grand ceremony of Pilot's return,India outrightly denied it, same way it took Pak months to take back NLI POW but unlike you, we never demanded a grand ceremony for it.

Pak embassy didn't even knew the the names of those POW in August 1999.

 

[Jamwal's]

Wartime Reporting By India Today and some rare pics from 1999

Siege of Tiger Hill

Weapons Recovered MG3s and 81 mm Mortar and Victorious Troops

Recovered Stuff Including POF A P Mines

 

[Indus Pakistan]

@Jamwal's I have already stated that Kargil was planned by men who frankly were not cut to carry any rank above Lt.Colonel. They lacked strategic acumen. There is no doubt NLI demonstrated absolute tactical genius in gaing the heights and the bravery of the PA soldiers is beyond any question. Starved, out of ammunition they fought against overwhelming odds and it took IA months to regain the peaks after repeated attempts.

I concede Pak Army's lack of strategic ability. That said there is no point in you sticking a finger up your as*hole and then puffing your chest with air like a overblown balloon with misconstrued pride. The fact is I cannot imagine any other country on earth like India with's it's massive advantage in population and resources compared to Pakistan - in advantage approaching 1:7 yet despite Pakistan kicking India's gargantuan udders for nearly 70 years yet Pakistan is still stood as cocky as it ever has been.*

Can you imagine if Bulgaria did that to Russia for 70 years? Can you imagine if Bangladesh did that to China for 70 years? Both Bulgaria or Bangladesh would have been chewed and spat out into the bin. The map would be erased of those countries.

Bottom line. IA has failed to erase Pakistan despite all the provocations. Can you imagine if India was just utter Pradesh and it faced Pakistan 1:1?

*And don't bother bringing up the Bangfest of 1971. It was a Bang versus Pak war in "away" game in their home turf with less than 55k PA regular soldiers. Then you guy's joined in with the Bang Mukti's and beat PA in home game.

 

[kublaiyuan]

Bottom line. IA has failed to erase Pakistan despite all the provocations. Can you imagine if India was just utter Pradesh and it faced Pakistan 1:1?

India/IA never wants to erase pakistan, India was always in a position to actually end any political/military structure of west pakistan, India never wants a Somalia like situation on either of her west or eastern borders,
a unstable pakistan will bring millions of desperate migrants to India.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

India/IA never wants to erase pakistan, India was always in a position to actually end any political/military structure of west pakistan, India never wants a Somalia like situation on either of her west or eastern borders,
a unstable pakistan will bring millions of desperate migrants to India.

Ball oxe. Why would Pakistani's go to India? Are kidding me. If they ever left en masse they would head West. In fact Karachi is full of your migrants into Pakistan who apparently remitt over $5 billion dollars to India. Why the hell did India not finish off Pakistan in late 1940s or 1950s. Undo the partition that Nehru and your leaders opposed so much? Why not put your money where your mouth is?

In fact it was other way around. According to India J&K acceeded via the Maharajah signing the document to India. If that is the legal position than it follows Jammu Kashmir is India. It then also follows that Pakistan has illegaly occupied as you call it P*O*K or 1/4 of J&K. So tell me sunshine why a countrty with 7:1 advantage in population and resources has not just walked in and grabbed P*O*K back from Pakistan. What you guy's run some charity. Is it some Hindu zakat where you give 25% of gift aid as charity?

Instead of you guy's grabbing P*O*K back we have the spectacle of the puny David trying to seize the other 75% off the Goliath whose shadow is seven times larger. This says it all. In fact this contest for nearly 70 years reminds me of Tom and Jerry. After 70 years Jerry still has the stolen piece from Tom and has had the galls to try grab even Tom's portion as well.

 

[kublaiyuan]

Ball oxe. Why would Pakistani's go to India? Are kidding me. If they ever left en masse they would head West. In fact Karachi is full of your migrants into Pakistan who apparently remitt over $5 billion dollars to India. Why the hell did India not finish off Pakistan in late 1940s or 1950s. Undo the partition that Nehru and your leaders opposed so much? Why not put your money where your mouth is?

India could have cracked up any ruling structure in pakistan in 40s or 50s itself, but like I said a totally chaotic pakistan with no structure will bring desperate fanatical muslim migrants to Indian doors, pakistani governance structure collapse will push desperate millions and millions of panjabi muslims and sindhis to east for stability.

Also I have already clarified pakistanis dont remit anything, this is illegal trade <import from India> which is paid by remittance channels, Indians also remit for import from pakistan but its negligible. Actually not granting Indian products direct access to pakistani market is hurting pakistan much more, your military/political elite is pocketing all import duties in thr pockets which could have gone into pakistani revenue stream. Actual trade between India and pakistan is around 7 billion $.

 

[Jamwal's]

@Jamwal's I have already stated that Kargil was planned by men who frankly were not cut to carry any rank above Lt.Colonel. They lacked strategic acumen.

This was not the first time when Musharaf miserably failed,earlier when he was a Brigadier tried to annex Siachen but this time he started a war in which Pak gained nothing but unnecessary deaths on both sides followed by a Coup.

@Jamwal'sit took IA months to regain the peaks after repeated attempts.

Intelligence failure,buildup, preparation for fighting at those heights and If you look at Kargil terrain you will know what it takes to fight at those heights When IA grunt give away food packets for extra ammunition.

They offer little cover and the soldiers who occupy the peaks have every advantage - they can direct accurate fire and observe the movement from high ground 24/7 .

@Jamwal'sdvantage in population and resources compared to Pakistan - in advantage approaching 1:7 yet despite Pakistan kicking India's gargantuan udders for nearly 70 years yet Pakistan is still stood as cocky as it ever has been.*

Can you imagine if Bulgaria did that to Russia for 70 years? Can you imagine if Bangladesh did that to China for 70 years? Both Bulgaria or Bangladesh would have been chewed and spat out into the bin. The map would be erased of those countries.

There is no overwhelming advantage for IA in comparison with Pak.Pak have 600 K troops and Indian Army stands at 1.3 million with 3 fronts two in Kashmir and one in North East.

Also add CI ops which is also a mini front to say at least.

@Jamwal's

I

Bottom line. IA has failed to erase Pakistan despite all the provocations.

Its neither the mandate of IA nor does the wish of Indians (majority) to erase Pakistan.

@Jamwal's

*And don't bother bringing up the Bangfest of 1971. It was a Bang versus Pak war in "away" game in their home turf with less than 55k PA regular soldiers. Then you guy's joined in with the Bang Mukti's and beat PA in home game.

The most important battles of 1971 campaign were fought in Kashmir (poonch and Turtok),Punjab and Rajasthan where both forces were evenly matched.

 

[Penguin]

This research paper tries to find parallels between Kargil War and Operation Anaconda - Afghanistan 2002

Naval Postgraduate School
Naval Postgraduate School - About NPS

 

[Jamwal's]

Kargil Battle School

Captured weapons including ATGM

Capt Vikram Batra with Captured MG3 and 12.7 mm recovered from Pt 4875

2nd Rajputana at Tololing - spent cartridge shells from the battle

 

[Stephen Cohen]

Why not go back to 1965 and see if that puts a smile on your face

Why JUST a smile

1965 makes us LAUGH a lot

After all did nt Gen AYUB say that " One Muslim is equal to ten Hindus "

What happened to the Martial race theory
and the PLANS to put the Green Flag on RED FORT ; by Gen Ayub

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
When will you realise that HAD 1965 NOT happened ; 1971 ALSO would not have happened

 

[livingdead]

kargil was a failure, i'm not stupid enough to deny this, but you're argument that indian army did something spectacular is nothing more then bullshit. there were little more then 2000 pak soldiers in those peaks, and they were exposed to indian bofors the whole time they were there, they held out over a month, militarily this is a failure on indias side, that a formation of soldiers from the NLI who at the time were regarded as paramilitary(the pak paramilitary have always been ill equipped they lack basic equipment that regular pak soldiers have, this propaganda you hear about them being experts in mountain warfare is a fabrication). yet those same soldiers held out for 6 weeks against 300k indian troops with the backing of the indian air force. Most the pak army were unaware of what was going on in kargil. the kargil war didn't involve the full backing of the whole pak army, the pak army manned the artillery on there side of the LOC, but they at no point committed tens of thousands of soldiers that in any shape or form could challenge the 300,000 men who were actively fighting in kargil, my point is Indian media/and indian members paint the pakistan army as an unprofessional, begger like army who always get whopped, but in this case 2000 men held there own and only got there backs broken for a culmination of reasons(part of that reason was india finally got its tactics right, but another part of the reason was the lack of logistical support), please don't portray what india did in kargil as some big military achievement when in fact it wasn't that big a deal.

I too think it was not a big achievement for IA, inspite of personal sacrifice of heroes of IA, who were crawling in freezing temperature to capture peaks. We threw whatever we had at the problem, and our resources are virtually unlimited, so was time(unlike other wars when international community puts pressure on us). It was a brilliant plan by Musharaf who thought nuclear threat can force US and other world power to put pressure on India. However the civilian govt was not taken into confidence, the world opinion was not made to support pakistan's cause(is difficult when you are the one doing incursion but still diplomat's job is to make you look good).. in the end NLI was used as a suicide sqad. Fair point to them that they held on.
Kargil war was won more by Vajpayee & co, than IA, I think.

 

[Razia Sultana]

I too think it was not a big achievement for IA, inspite of personal sacrifice of heroes of IA, who were crawling in freezing temperature to capture peaks. We threw whatever we had at the problem, and our resources are virtually unlimited, so was time(unlike other wars when international community puts pressure on us). It was a brilliant plan by Musharaf who thought nuclear threat can force US and other world power to put pressure on India. However the civilian govt was not taken into confidence, the world opinion was not made to support pakistan's cause(is difficult when you are the one doing incursion but still diplomat's job is to make you look good).. in the end NLI was used as a suicide sqad. Fair point to them that they held on.
Kargil war was won more by Vajpayee & co, than IA, I think.

India fought as a team during the Kargil War. The Army, the IAF, the government, politicians, diplomates and the citizens they all contributed their bit.Lets not forget that the Army started at a disadvantageous position. They had to capture the peaks while being in the line of fire and yet they managed to throw out the occupants. Compare this with Pakistan's 20 yrs long attempt to capture Siachin. While Vajpayee & Co's diplomacy shattered Pakistan's image it was the military that regained the kargil heights. The best achievement of the govt. was to change the world's perception of Kashmir issue as a sheer nuissance by Pakistan. Pakistan still wonders why the champions of democracy have stopped listening to her Kashmir rant.

 

[for truth]

I have noticed large amount of masks recovered from Pakistani side.

Can anyone here shed light on why exactly these masks were being used? I didn't see any Indian solider wearing such masks, and I haven't seen such masks in mountain warfare either.

As far as I know, these sort of masks are used in NBC environment. And somehow doesn't make sense to see the presence of such masks in huge numbers when no NBC weapons were used, or more appropriately, no NBC weapons could have been used in that war.

What was the reason for using such masks?

 

[Jamwal's]

I have noticed large amount of masks recovered from Pakistani side.

Can anyone here shed light on why exactly these masks were being used? I didn't see any Indian solider wearing such masks, and I haven't seen such masks in mountain warfare either.

As far as I know, these sort of masks are used in NBC environment. And somehow doesn't make sense to see the presence of such masks in huge numbers when no NBC weapons were used, or more appropriately, no NBC weapons could have been used in that war.

What was the reason for using such masks?

To protect them from Smoke shells first fired to flush out infiltration followed by Air Burst Round.

Besides Pak also accused India of using Chemical weapons on her soldiers in Kargil.
Google it.