Kargil War - A research paper by US Military on High Altitude Warfare

[Butchcassidy]

This about sums it up. Reality is "given the weight of numbers". All said and done the stark reality is India has nearly 7:1 advantage in numbers. Yes there are cases when such odds can be defeated like Zulus versus British but those are rare cases when one side enjoys overwhelming advantage in technological superiority. In case of India and Pak both are about at the same level although one might even argue that India has the lead even there.

Therefore Pakistan can play all sort of tricks and might even gain tactical advantage but at a strategic level defeat is inevitable as larger numbers and resources bite. This is the way it has been since 1947. The gap between the two was least in late 1940s to early 1950s because Pakistan inheritated a larger share of the British Indian Army then it's size. However ever since it has been case of India's huge size just overshadowing Pakistan.

Look the reality that any imbecile can see is Pakistan is slightly smaller than Utter Pradesh. now would UP be able to fight against rest of India plus Pakistan far long? No, I don't think so. This is something our planners and budding wannabe Rommels like Musharaf need to learn.

Ps. Nobody can say the Germans did not make a helluva effort in both World Wars. However both times the German Army was defeated simply because of the overwhelming numbers it faced. The fact they managed to last 5 years on both occasions speaks about German bravery and conviction. But defeat came each time.

Well that ends all the arguments, your analogy with the germans is spot on. Country with more resources will prevail in the end.

 

[third eye]

@third eye I noticed that our flag is placed inverted in all the pictures. Is that some sort of tradition or protocol? It's somewhat disgraceful I would say.

I believe it's just because of ignorance of Indian Army Carpenter whose rank is max lanc naik or havaldar. Any innocent mistake must be ignored, however if any feeling hurt I must apologise on behalf of the Nation.

Sir that is an old tradition here,since other countries flags can't be displayed or hoisted in a sovereign country (India in case),these are inverted to that effect.

Captured enemy flags are displayed upside down.

Thats how its been for as long as I can recall.

 

[Foo_Fighter]

Captured enemy flags are displayed upside down.

Thats how its been for as long as I can recall.

I do not think that's the case. Let me talk to my jiji and get back to you, he is a Colonel in the army.

Reading that I would love to personally slap Musharaf. I was going to say "fist him" but that's only reserved for real men.

Dear Sir,

That is the shortest, best and most precise summary of the whole OP article

 

[Inception-06]

kargil was a failure, i'm not stupid enough to deny this, but you're argument that indian army did something spectacular is nothing more then bullshit. there were little more then 2000 pak soldiers in those peaks, and they were exposed to indian bofors the whole time they were there, they held out over a month, militarily this is a failure on indias side, that a formation of soldiers from the NLI who at the time were regarded as paramilitary(the pak paramilitary have always been ill equipped they lack basic equipment that regular pak soldiers have, this propaganda you hear about them being experts in mountain warfare is a fabrication). yet those same soldiers held out for 6 weeks against 300k indian troops with the backing of the indian air force. Most the pak army were unaware of what was going on in kargil. the kargil war didn't involve the full backing of the whole pak army, the pak army manned the artillery on there side of the LOC, but they at no point committed tens of thousands of soldiers that in any shape or form could challenge the 300,000 men who were actively fighting in kargil, my point is Indian media/and indian members paint the pakistan army as an unprofessional, begger like army who always get whopped, but in this case 2000 men held there own and only got there backs broken for a culmination of reasons(part of that reason was india finally got its tactics right, but another part of the reason was the lack of logistical support), please don't portray what india did in kargil as some big military achievement when in fact it wasn't that big a deal.

Everything very well explained,My respect for this reply, I would like to add that the NLI was not taught equal to the regular Pakistan mountain Infantry in mountain warfare but was perfectly suited for that, because of their geographical and ethnic background.

 

[Scavenger]

Mentality of 80's existed that how India captured the heights and Pakistan folded. Similar thing could be achieved.

Interesting titbit Sir.
What was the mentality of the 80's ? It would be informative for the relatively younger board members like me.

 

[Jamwal's]

So now you are running back to 1971

If truth hurts then deal with it.

After losing three aircraft in first few days, your air force played safe by bombing from a safe altitude dropping bombs in a wide area away from any targets, by the time you ended up in Israeli lap, most of personal had been withdrawn from the heights.

Not at all.Those aircraft lost in the month of May,the real action of IAF started in June,the only change was to fly from High Alt and use of LGB rather than rocket salvos.

You are wrong in saying NLI/Mujahids withdrew by then because at least 300 ~ KIA (According to ex CIA officer and Photo recon) on a single Air strike on Munto Dhalo a major supply and logistic base for kargil op.

Benjamin Lambeth

In characterizing the attack as “perhaps the most spectacular of all the [campaign’s air; a serving IAF air commodore reported at the end of 1999 that it resulted in as many as 300 enemy casualties within just minutes.69 Figure 3 shows pre- and post-strike aerial imagery of the enemy camp at Muntho Dhalo. In the first image, a dense array of tents and structures, as well as tracks leading up the hillside from the encampment, are clearly visible. In the second, after completion of the IAF’s attacks, all that remain are bomb craters and rubble.

Really, do you forget how the so called Lohars ended up short of coffins .....get the drift.

Martyrs were given proper funeral including those whose bodies were never accepted from your side and yeah i/ve heard about a coffin scam but it has nothing to do with this thread.

Kargil tragedy: Dead soldier’s family still waiting to receive his body - The Express Tribune

 

[The Eagle]

IMO..... indeed the planning was weak and ill since enactment in account of supply and support which validate it as suicide mission to me.

Soldiers sent to fight at Kargil, did their job very well without any iota of doubt in mind even being aware of one way journey for them. They fought bravely and made the most out of whatever was available while set an example of high moral to the rest of us all. Indeed those were brave and precious lives that fought for a cause as were told to do so and fulfilled their duty with valor and bravery while fulfilling the promises. Soldiers were sent without proper planning but still they fought and resisted more than expectations against far superior enemy power in quantity and supply. Still, the continue shelling along with Air support by IAF, these jawans did not abandon the posts but fought till end and if had the proper support, results would have been far different than today.

On other hand, poor planning by the then Command while sending people on a mission without any proper support and continue supply but indeed sacrificed brave sons of this land due to the lack of planning. Other forces were not taken into confidence nor the situation was discussed so also purely indicates that proper planning was missing at all.

We can question the planning by the then high-ups at our end but the moral and act of our Jawans, are high and beyond expectations and they fought well even having less support and supply though caused more damage to a superior enemy at that moment.

 

[ravi gupta]

NLI Soldiers done very well,
but there planner are incompetent.
Send those poor soldiers to die.
Why till now no action against those planner.

 

[The Eagle]

Stories and incompetence is on both side in such case though with less numbers, Pakistan did the most damage to the enemy.

 

[Cherokee]

General follies. It was Musharraf Idea to finish the unfinish business of his day's during Brigadier. Mentality of 80's existed that how India captured the heights and Pakistan folded. Similar thing could be achieved.

Oh By the way why was my first reply to the thread deleted ? Even you have quoted it as well .

 

[thrilainmanila]

the indian army isn't some Phenom army, they've had there own embarrassments through out the years, don't forget what happened in opertation parakaram when 2000 indian soldiers lost there lives before a single bullet was ever fired in 2002, don't forget what happened in 1984 in the golden temple when 200+ indian soldiers were killed by sikh renegades, your own special forces were so incompetent you begged the british SAS to assist you in the operation.
and that brave army your so proud of couldn't even save indra ghandi from getting killed. don't forget how helpless the indian commandos looked in mumbai when they couldn't even protect there own civillians from getting shot after years of indian members claiming there Marcos or black cats or whatever the **** you want to call them were better then the US SSF.
No one on this website claims the pak armed forces to be world elite, there not. but don't ever dare say that were some kind of begger army who always get whopped and then potray your victory as some kind of miraculous/humongous victory as if you took out a superpower. even in 1971 the war your so proud of 4000 indian troops were KIA, the pak army suffered heavier casualties, my point is its never beeen easy for you, you suffered a bloody nose in the process.

 

[Peshwa]

The one thing I don't get here...
Pakistanis claim that the NLI was ill equipped and short on resources, being a paramilitary force.
Yet, they were able to shoot down one aircraft and a heli using stingers. Now if Im not mistaken, for one, paramilitary units don't generally use SAM's ..
So why were the NLI carrying SAM's in the first place if they weren't expecting an aerial retaliation?
And if they weren't carrying them from the get go, that must mean that they were supplied with the stingers based on the aerial campaign that began in may.

In both cases, the resource and supply of the NLI does not seem to be the problem for their failure...Strategic shortsightedness seems to be the culprit.

 

[Jamwal's]

don't forget what happened in opertation parakaram when 2000 indian

That was before 2003 cease fire,and the casualties also happened in Arty duals and firing on LOC unfortunately ISPR hardly gives correct Pak casualties. It took years to put the KIA list of Kargil war.

don't forget what happened in 1984 in the golden temple when 200+ indian soldiers were killed by sikh renegades, your own special forces were so incompetent you begged the british SAS to assist you in the operation.

The Golden temple was fortified was ex Maj Gen Shahbeg Singh veteran 1971 war,Indian army was instructed to do minimum damage in Golden Temple as for SAS your own SSG was created with US help while we design our own SOF schools where almost every SOF comes to train with Indian Army.

don't forget how helpless the indian commandos looked in mumbai when they couldn't even protect there own civillians from getting shot after years of indian members claiming there Marcos or black cats or whatever the **** you want to call them were better then the US SSF.

Jihadis strikes at several places in Mumbai including Taj Hotel and oberai with 1000s of rooms and Hostages and total death in 26/11 were 150 ~.

Now compare your own country - several Military bases and Airport attacks with P3 destroyed even your GHQ was attacked nothing extraordinary from SSGs part.

even in 1971 the war your so proud of 4000 indian troops were KIA, the pak army suffered heavier casualties, my point is its never beeen easy for you, you suffered a bloody nose in the process.

The most glorious victories of 1971 were achieved in Western front not Bangladesh - longewala,Shakargarh (Punjab),Poonch and Kargil to name a few.

In 1971 We permanently annexed your territories in Kashmir and forced you to sign Shimla agreement. (Ex Tortuk)

Indian annexed Siachen in 1984 and then beaten several Pak army attempts in 1987 and 1992.

And in 1965 and 1971 pak casualties were more than India.Fact.

 

[ravi gupta]

the indian army isn't some Phenom army, they've had there own embarrassments through out the years, don't forget what happened in opertation parakaram when 2000 indian soldiers lost there lives before a single bullet was ever fired in 2002, don't forget what happened in 1984 in the golden temple when 200+ indian soldiers were killed by sikh renegades, your own special forces were so incompetent you begged the british SAS to assist you in the operation.
and that brave army your so proud of couldn't even save indra ghandi from getting killed. don't forget how helpless the indian commandos looked in mumbai when they couldn't even protect there own civillians from getting shot after years of indian members claiming there Marcos or black cats or whatever the **** you want to call them were better then the US SSF.
No one on this website claims the pak armed forces to be world elite, there not. but don't ever dare say that were some kind of begger army who always get whopped and then potray your victory as some kind of miraculous/humongous victory as if you took out a superpower. even in 1971 the war your so proud of 4000 indian troops were KIA, the pak army suffered heavier casualties, my point is its never beeen easy for you, you suffered a bloody nose in the process.

If you will bring Mumbai attack,i will bring APS,where where your army when terrorist where massacring small school children,and where where your proud PAF when terrorist destroyed your expensive SAAB AWACS plane.

 

[Psychic]

A retired General whose name escapes my memory is quoted to have said, "Musharraf is a commando, all tactics and no strategy".
It was thought that once the peaks have been taken, we would hold onto them...but with what?
The issue of logistics was not given due attention by the planners.

1- NLI was a paramilitary outfit which was undertrained.
2- Indian response was misjudged.
3- The terrain was unsuitable for any kind of digging. The "sangars" or the bunkers made of rocks could only give protection against small arms fire. These small fortifications could not withstand a barrage of 155mm artillery fire or LGBs. Reverse slopes could save the men somewhat from the artillery but in the absence of proper dugouts, any effort for a successful defence was futile.
4- The troops were not reinforced. The soldiers who had captured the peaks during the winter had stayed there and fought the enemy in the summer.
5- No planning was done for any sort of replacements. At those altitudes, one's health detoriates if he stays there for prolonged periods (NLI soldiers spent the entire winters and almost the entire summers there).
6- Tactical blunders were committed. Troops were thinly spread in order to "capture more territory " which led to the isolation and the subsequent capitulation of several posts. In the isolated posts, the stock of rations and ammunition was insufficient, many soldiers had to consume grass and insects inorder to survive. Many ran out of ammunition.
7- With such a disparity in numbers and firepower, there was no chance that the NLI could hold out. High ground alone is not enough. In Af-Pak, NATO and PA defeated the militants over and over again even when the latter held the high grounds. Lack of air support in such a battle seals the fate of the defenders.