Kargil War - A research paper by US Military on High Altitude Warfare

[cerberus]

What advantage? When you are facing 1700 ill equipped men with light weapons (and no logistic supply) with over 30,000 soldiers, several arty brushes and massive airpower like gunships and jets?

105 mm Motars,Manapads,AutoMatic Geranade Launcers.Heavy AA Guns So what Are you Prospecting At 17,411 ft (5,307 m) on Tiger Hill Al Khalid Tanks.The Objectives Failed Due to Lack of True Position By your Establishment Remember the War Planned by your General

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[Didact]

What advantage? When you are facing 1700 ill equipped men with light weapons (and no logistic supply or even warm clothing) with over 30,000 soldiers, several arty brigades and massive airpower like gunships and jets?



BS!
9th NLI is the most decorated PA unit today... The NLI which back than was a paramilitary unit was merged in the Army as a reward for courage they showed in Kargil ..,
Valiant soldiers like Havaldar Lalak Jan Shaheed & Capt Karnal Sher Khan Shaheed were awarded highest Military Awards!


Paks casualities 453 soldiers;
PakArmyKargil1999


On the first attempt to take tololing Indian army suffered 150+ casualties... That's just 1 incident... On Tiger Hill India again suffered hundreds of casualities despite rushing in 3 regiments,shelling 1200 rounds every 5 minutes and striking with airpower !! All that against less than 100 paramilitary soldiers armed with small arms and 1 X 12.7 .. Who weren't even equipped with cold weather gear and logistics, low ammo and food -- continously fighting for months -- in conditions where even survival against weather and disease (due to lack of gear,food and supplies) itself was a miracle...... and even rolling down boulders on entrenched indian troops due to lack of supplies.

They lost 3 aircrafts - 2 jets and a gunship.

Just because common sense is not someone's cup of tea doesn't mean everyone else has to tolerate that idiot's idiocy as his freedom of expression.

If those men of NLI held no advantage, they'd have been smashed through that mountain out the other side before the Sun set on Day 1, martial courage notwithstanding; Human courage can only go so far when facing 155mm Guns and 500-1000 pounders. It is almost exclusively because of their topographical advantage that they managed to hold on for as long as they did.

Next, the IA does not have infantry regiments in it's ORBAT. An Indian infantry regiment's responsibility is not to undertake field operations but to provide battalions and well trained personnel to the field formations, as such it is common to find battalions of the same regiment spread across several brigades, divisions, corps, commands, and even theaters.

In any case, 3 regiments would be anywhere between 60,000-90,000 strong. Given Pakistan's natural propensity, further reinforced by experience over a quarter of a century, such a large force anywhere near the LOC would make every pakistani latch onto the nearest nukes and scream "hamare Paas Atmi Bumb hai". For all we know, that might actually be the slogan, national anthem and national song of the Islamic Republic.

But anyways, I rate your nonsense 20/10; it explained pretty well the product of ignorance and foaming mouth and keyboard.

 

[cerberus]

BS!
9th NLI is the most decorated PA unit today... The NLI which back than was a paramilitary unit was merged in the Army as a reward for courage they showed in Kargil ..,
Valiant soldiers like Havaldar Lalak Jan Shaheed & Capt Karnal Sher Khan Shaheed were awarded highest Military Awards!


Paks casualities 453 soldiers;
PakArmyKargil1999


On the first attempt to take tololing Indian army suffered 150+ casualties... That's just 1 incident... On Tiger Hill India again suffered hundreds of casualities despite rushing in 3 regiments,shelling 1200 rounds every 5 minutes and striking with airpower !! All that against less than 100 paramilitary soldiers armed with small arms and 1 X 12.7 .. Who weren't even equipped with cold weather gear and logistics, low ammo and food -- continously fighting for months -- in conditions where even survival against weather and disease (due to lack of gear,food and supplies) itself was a miracle...... and even rolling down boulders on entrenched indian troops due to lack of supplies.

Not Just NLI But Troops from the elite SSG as well as four to seven others
Mentioned By Musharraf in his book
In the Line of Fire: A Memoir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

These Pakistani forces were backed by Non Regular Armed Kashmiri Guerrillas and Afgan Guerrillas .

So the 453 Casualties you reporting is of Regular Armed Soldiers which Excluding Irregular Kashmiri & Afghani Mujaheddin Mercenaries

Also there Various Air crashes From Pakistani side

Nk Nasir Ahmed Malik EME Hel Crash HQ ARMY AVN COMD 1999/06/10 SKARDU HELE CRASHED Jhelum
67
2818384 Lnk Abdul Karim AK Heli Crash 14 DIV 1999/06/10 GEN AREA DEASOI PLAIN Due to Hel Crash Mzd
68
PA 35005 CAPT Saeed Ahmed Khan Sind AIR CRASH T BT 1999/06/10 OPS AREA FCNA DIED DUE TO HELI CRASH Gujranwala
69
PJO 62679 Sub Nazir Hussain AK Heli Crash 14 DIV 1999/06/10 Kargil Due to Hel Crash Islamabad
70
PA 19410 MAJ Muhammad Hanif Punjab AIR CRASH 1999/06/10 NEAR DEOSAI PLAINS SHARDU AREA DEID DUE TO HEL CRASH Sargodha
71
PA 29332 CAPT Muhammad Uzair AD AIR CRASH S BT 1999/06/10 Diosai Plains DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH Mir Pur (AK)
72
PA 29553 CAPT Jamal Akbar
From your Provide Source Only


I Noticed Also one High Rank Officer Killed
PA 16260 BRIG Nusrat Khan Sial Punjab AIR CRASH TJ,S BT 1999/06/11 BDA DIED DUE TO HEL CRASH

 

[Jamwal's]

What advantage? When you are facing 1700 ill equipped men with light weapons (and no logistic supply or even warm clothing) with over 30,000 soldiers, several arty brigades and massive airpower like gunships and jets?



BS!
9th NLI is the most decorated PA unit today... The NLI which back than was a paramilitary unit was merged in the Army as a reward for courage they showed in Kargil ..,
Valiant soldiers like Havaldar Lalak Jan Shaheed & Capt Karnal Sher Khan Shaheed were awarded highest Military Awards!


Paks casualities 453 soldiers;
PakArmyKargil1999


On the first attempt to take tololing Indian army suffered 150+ casualties... That's just 1 incident... On Tiger Hill India again suffered hundreds of casualities despite rushing in 3 regiments,shelling 1200 rounds every 5 minutes and striking with airpower !! All that against less than 100 paramilitary soldiers armed with small arms and 1 X 12.7 .. Who weren't even equipped with cold weather gear and logistics, low ammo and food -- continously fighting for months -- in conditions where even survival against weather and disease (due to lack of gear,food and supplies) itself was a miracle...... and even rolling down boulders on entrenched indian troops due to lack of supplies.



They lost 3 aircrafts - 2 jets and a gunship.

These 450 casualties does not include 200 ~ bodies which was buried by India,i have read that families still waiting for the bodies in Pak.


80 % of Indian casualties were due to artillery.


Tiger hill and tooling was heavily mined by POF AP mines.


As for supply line,NLI had a well established ammo and supply depot at Mt Dhalo which was turned into dirt by Mirage 2000s airstrike and PAF was nowhere to be seen.

India could have crossed the LOC during Kargil and in 2002 and again in 2008.....and if auntie had balls she would be called uncle.....you tried your misadventure during Kargil, how else do you think you lost two aircraft....and then in 2002 you sat on your back side for almost a year losing close to a thousand men but according to your ridiculous school of thoughts, India was trying to prove it's resp

onsibility.
And it's funny how you Indians pick words out of thin air to suit your tiny ego....so according to your Indian teachings, Pakistan became a rogue state but then US must have had a change of heart and declared Pakistan with another status.

BBC NEWS | South Asia | Bush names Pakistan 'major ally'
As for the topic, do some home work before you start chest thumping on a forum.

Tehelka - The People's Paper

At least IAF did few CAS right under the SAM umbrella and most challenging en with thin air and lost two,where was PAF.Only Atlanteque showed some balls and conducted recon only to be shot down by Mig 21.

Have you seen any Air force sitting ducks while Enemy jets (IAF) pounding their men relentlessly ?

Oh and one more thing we made a joke out of those captured Stingers/Anzas when we displayed them in our museums.

 

[Scavenger]

Kargil was ill planned unnecessary blunder by dhakan musharaf, he wasted precious lives of brave sons of nation for nothing.

No. It was not unnecessary.

It was thanks to Kargil that Indian Army was able to stop Manmohan Singh from unilateral withdrawal of Indian Army from Siachen. The GoI under Manmohan was hell bent on removing the Army from Siachen. The Indian Army in its official report cited Kargil as the example of what happens when it vacates an area based on 'trust'.

The report and mentioning of logistics of retaking Kargil forced Manmohan to stop pushing for his 'mountain of peace' drama.

What is so unforgiveable is that even before the operation was launched defeat was writ large. How in gawds name could 1,700 men (light infantry) be expected to hold the hill against entire army group numbering over 300,000 men, artillery, air power? All this without any back up or any logistical supply. Where the *f* was PAF? Are they just for show on defence day?

Perhaps you should read this.

It is a one of a kind - a gem - written by PAF Officer Kaiser Tufail.

Aeronaut: Kargil Conflict and Pakistan Air Force

It lists out not just the goals of PA(Siachen) but also logistics.

 

[MadDog]

Why ur government has not provided the proper gear, proper clothing and equipment to brave soldiers.

You are a war monger,



Y ur soldeirs where not given support the way indian soldiers get.

NLI wasnt army back then, it was paramilitary force, compare it with BSF at the time, compare pak army's gear with indian army's gear if u have a little common sense, dont compare apples to oranges. Despite being a paramilitary unit a few hundred men had you by your throat & cut of supply to indian troops in siachen, until US & int'l community forced them to abandon the captured posts. Andar ghus ke maarna issay kehtay hain, you guys make movies on it , we did it practically.

 

[MadDog]

These 450 casualties does not include 200 ~ bodies which was buried by India,i have read that families still waiting for the bodies in Pak.


80 % of Indian casualties were due to artillery.


Tiger hill and tooling was heavily mined by POF AP mines.


As for supply line,NLI had a well established ammo and supply depot at Mt Dhalo which was turned into dirt by Mirage 2000s airstrike and PAF was nowhere to be seen.


At least IAF did few CAS right under the SAM umbrella and most challenging en with thin air and lost two,where was PAF.Only Atlanteque showed some balls and conducted recon only to be shot down by Mig 21.

Have you seen any Air force sitting ducks while Enemy jets (IAF) pounding their men relentlessly ?

Oh and one more thing we made a joke out of those captured Stingers/Anzas when we displayed them in our museums.

Your IAF was bombing on the territory you claimed to be part of India. Pak's stance was these are kashmiri mujahideen if PAF would have entered it would be negation of our official stance. When you tried to enter into pakistan's airspace your Mig 21's, Mig 27's & helicopters were shot down , thanks to Anza SAM, remember Nachi Keeta, your pilot who accepted intruding pak airspace, on pak national tv, how embarrassing. Your govt refused to take him back, we had to hand him over to red cross. Yet you chest thump about shooting down a unarmed naval aircraft, that's pretty pathetic !!!

 

[ravi gupta]

What difference this make if they are from NLI,not your men,are you not suppose to provide them proper support.
marne kai leeye chhod deeya behind enemy line.
what abt PAF,When IAF where bombing your men in Kargil

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Miscalculation of enemy intent and will by the Gang of 4.

The points you raise below are the abc of strategic planning. Therefore Musharaf and his staff are guilty of:-

1. They did not expect the IA to launch such a massive retaliation.

Charged as guilty ~ What were they expecting the Indian's to do? Puja

2. They did not believe the IA would move heavy artillery.

Charged as guilty ~ What did they think IA artillery is for masturbating over?

3. They did not expect the IAF to be involved.

Charged as guilty ~ What is IAF for? Doing airshows over New Delhi?

On the question of the PAF being involved, one way to look at it is that, after the monumental c0ck up, the Pakistani establishment did not want a full frontal war. Hence, the prudent decision to with-hold them. Even if they were used, how would you fight against BVR equipped planes with WVR planes?

Dereliction and negligence amounting to almost high treason ~ So why did they expect no frontal war? They did let the vegetarian theory delude them like the 1965 "India won't attack on international border"? In war expect anything - All is fair in war. If general staff officers are not aware of this they need to be lined and publicly get this treatment before being court martialed.

What could have also helped was acceptance early in the conflict of them being Pakistani regulars? Insistence that they were mujahideen, would have opened another can of worms, if the PAF were used. Why was PAF supporting mujahideen?

God gave us a brain? What is it for? Use it. These misfits at GHQ clearly did not use theirs.

On a whole, it was a plan thought by tactical commanders without thinking about strategic implications. No point blaming PAF for the debacle.

100% correct. In other words Musharaf and his senior staff should never have been promoted above rank of Lt.Colonel. They were not fit for senior staff posts that would require strategic acumen.

The failure of the senior command is made all the worse by the sacrifices and splendid fighting spirit of the ordinary soldiers from the real Pakistan of small nondescript villages who were lost to ego boosting trip of senior officers.

 

[Spectre]

Simple strategic calculus - Pakistan can never defeat India conventionally given the weight of numbers. All short term tactical gains will ultimately be lost.

Only option is to launch a joint attack with China.

Similar logic applies in reverse when Indian offensive on Pakistani territories are concerned. India simply cannot hold on and assimilate Pakistani side of Kashmir.

 

[Armstrong]

Hmmmmnnnn....interesting read.

@Icarus - Ignoring the jingoism for a second, what do you make of the topic ?

 

[Jamwal's]

Your IAF was bombing on the territory you claimed to be part of India. Pak's stance was these are kashmiri mujahideen if PAF would have entered it would be negation of our official stance. When you tried to enter into pakistan's airspace your Mig 21's, Mig 27's & helicopters were shot down , thanks to Anza SAM, remember Nachi Keeta, your pilot who accepted intruding pak airspace, on pak national tv, how embarrassing. Your govt refused to take him back, we had to hand him over to red cross. Yet you chest thump about shooting down a unarmed naval aircraft, that's pretty pathetic !!!

It does not matter what pak stance was,those were NLI soldiers posing as Mujahideen with the cadre of Al Badr terrorist group,PAF should had assisted them.Poor show of professionalism by Pak military,i have never heard any air force in the world sitting in its hangers while enemy jets are mauling their own men.

And how can India Refused to accept a uniformed Pilot !

However what was embarrassing for Pak was that India Paraded NLI soldiers in front of media,showed their captured documents while pak refused to own their soldiers.Pak accepted only 3 bodies on tiger hill while more than 30 plus recovered there.

I really feel sorry for these families.

Kargil tragedy: Dead soldier’s family still waiting to receive his body - The Express Tribune

Point 4875 (Batra Top)


Recovered arms and Ammo including G3s

Kargil war Memorial - TOLOLING,Hump, 3 Pimples and Knoll Peaks in background

 

[Foo_Fighter]

Give me a break.. heights of internal conspiracy theory lol

NLI who at the time were regarded as paramilitary.

The Northern Light Infantry (reporting name: NLI) is a light infantry regiment in the Pakistan Army, based and currently headquartered in Gilgit, the capital of Gilgit–Baltistan. Along with many unified armed forces presence in the Northern Areas, the NLI has the primary ground operations responsibility of protecting the strategically important northern areas of Pakistan.

Northern Light Infantry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My Take:

1. NLI did an impossible feat by climbing hills during winters (hats off to them), however towards their imminent suicide planned by Mushy to gain western attention which backfired big time.
2. NLI brave men fought very well with huge hill advantage, however India had better strategy, better communication, unified command etc made the advantage was short lived
3. Even though Pakistan had hill advantage they lost more men than India (RIP to both) tells spectacular initial strategy by Pakistan however when it was understood it was India's game all together

Now my conspiracy theory (which could be true): Mushy though that NLI infiltration could lead India to cross LoC and with conventional disadvantage and no first strike policy, Pakistan will launch their loved ATUM BUMB, however Indian clearly negated that (well done BJP), however if Pakistan would launch nuclear strike it would have been even worse for Pakistan as whole world would retaliate to it. In conclusion, Indian Defense forces not crossing LoC meant they saved themselves from imminent nuclear strike and also saved Pakistan from a disaster too.

 

[Jamwal's]

Digendra Kumar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Give me a break.. heights of internal conspiracy theory lol



The Northern Light Infantry (reporting name: NLI) is a light infantry regiment in the Pakistan Army, based and currently headquartered in Gilgit, the capital of Gilgit–Baltistan. Along with many unified armed forces presence in the Northern Areas, the NLI has the primary ground operations responsibility of protecting the strategically important northern areas of Pakistan.

Northern Light Infantry - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

My Take:

1. NLI did an impossible feat by climbing hills during winters (hats off to them), however towards their imminent suicide planned by Mushy to gain western attention which backfired big time.
2. NLI brave men fought very well with huge hill advantage, however India had better strategy, better communication, unified command etc made the advantage was short lived
3. Even though Pakistan had hill advantage they lost more men than India (RIP to both) tells spectacular initial strategy by Pakistan however when it was understood it was India's game all together

Now my conspiracy theory (which could be true): Mushy though that NLI infiltration could lead India to cross LoC and with conventional disadvantage and no first strike policy, Pakistan will launch their loved ATUM BUMB, however Indian clearly negated that (well done BJP), however if Pakistan would launch nuclear strike it would have been even worse for Pakistan as whole world would retaliate to it. In conclusion, Indian Defense forces not crossing LoC meant they saved themselves from imminent nuclear strike and also saved Pakistan from a disaster too.

NLI wasn't the only regiment took part in kargil,there were SSG and FF,there was a FF POW whose post was overrun by Gurkhas.His Video is on YT.

 

[Icarus]

Hmmmmnnnn....interesting read.

@Icarus - Ignoring the jingoism for a second, what do you make of the topic ?

Kargil was an ill-conceived plan that was doomed to fail the day it was enacted. We put our men through hell and did not commit the resources to back them up. Human courage is tougher than steel but when you're being bombarded with 155mm and 500lbs of destruction, human courage will not stop the shrapnel nor mitigate the damage. These men knew they were going to die and yet they did not give up, each post was taken after a lengthy battle of attrition.
Credit to be given where it is due, the Indians were the superior fighting force in this encounter. They had seamless coordination between ground forces and the IAF which made our men's job all the more tougher.
In short, these guys should never have been put through that madness.

@third eye I noticed that our flag is placed inverted in all the pictures. Is that some sort of tradition or protocol? It's somewhat disgraceful I would say.