Kargil martyr Saurabh Kalia's torture: Violations by Pakistan unacceptable

[KS]

Bhai jan,
Urdu is drived from many languages n this word shaheed or shahadat is arabic word n it is used for Muslims only n not for everyone but for only those who die while serving islam or the path of the God,

Would it shock you if I said there were Arab christians also ?

 

[OrionHunter]

Well there is a pretty equal chance that some rag tag terrorists did the torturing- otherwise i dont think Pak army is unprofessional- thats what i believe-

I never said Pak Army is not professional. They are as professional as the IA and other armies around the world. But there are some black sheep (You'll find them anywhere) that screw up and muddy the waters. These guys need to to be brought to book.

Such actions if not nipped in the bud would result in indiscipline and soldiers running amok. There would be no difference then between a well trained, disciplined army and a rag tag circus like the Jihadis.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Bhaijan,

I see that you specialise in verbiage meaning nothing. What a word means in its original language and what it means in a borrowed form are vastly different. Surely you do not want public instruction in this. What shaheed or shahadat means in Arabic means nothing to people who are neither Arabic nor speak nor wish to speak Arabic. Try not to imagine that words are reserved for you by divine decree; it gets a little ludicrous at that point.

I notice that as you wrote on, your own position seemed so flimsy and indefensible that you found it necessary to add an escape clause, and added the path of 'the God'. As it happens, Bhagat Singh fought for his country and for secular ideals, not for the Muslims or the Hindus or the Sikhs or any other community. He was an atheistic socialist and wrote eloquently about his beliefs. We call him Shaheed because he died for his country, his cause, just as we call all those others who died for their country Shaheed. It seems so silly to be told that this is a reserved word, for while it may be so to some of us, it is not so for others.

What your country calls him hardly matters. You are not the arbiters of these matters.

You say that your country signed the Geneva Conventions 'defiantly'. Frankly, in case you are not aware, these are not options that you can pick and choose. These are not subject to the judgement of some moronic religious leader in a small town in a narrow-minded country, but are universal pacts.

They do not have an escape clause, that signatories are exempted from their operations if they are violated by the opposition. First, that is begging the question, and second, you need to acquire a sounder foundation in these matters before offering such an obviously stupid explanation in public. Stick to subjects in school and leave these for others. Subjects like spelling, for instance, which would inform you that you are charming but obtuse.

I dont know weather to laugh at u or cry at yr state. Yr at best an enemy soldier who was trained mentally n physically to invade our homeland n destroy us n infrastructure.so its very obvious that u will never understand us or our view point even if we try our best because in yr core u have spent yr youth n major part of yr life hearing things against us or our religion.

After reading yr comment i thought of never replying to it. But then i thought that yr an indian soldier 'or an ex soldier' and u r in a Pakistani military forum the same military or the nation that u people dont like even how much u try to prove here but still we know the way u post yr threads n posts here they speak louder then anything else.
'God' as the escape goat.
Mr all i can say is stop embarrassing yourself further as u should know where u r posting yr comments n whom ur talking to, as we r muslim from a Muslim majority country our religion guides our lives in every way. No matter how muslim become a secular or tries to copy or becomes a copycat of non muslims, still in the end of the day he is a muslim that is something in his core that cant be changed.

So we using God, Allah or Islam should not come as a surprise or something annoying to u.
In islam we name the arabic names ok my name Umair is also arabic also other names like Abdul Wahab, Abdul Mannan, Abdul Jabbar etc r also Arabic. Our language is also a mixture of arabic, this language is also taught in our schools too as an optional language because so we can understand the Quran-e-Pak better in its first language as what in it Allah All Mighty wants us to do in this life n after life, what is the purpose of creation of the mankind, why r human beings r divided into different faiths,nationalities, languages,regions etc.These basic things as well as many r answered by All Mighty himself in the book so to learn them n move on from hese basic things mentally towards more n more future development of human kind both spiritually,mentally.

Now if u understand the arabic language,it is such a vast n deep language n also the worlds their meanings n their use of sentence can be changed just by pronouncing them in a different way too. To us the muslims this language is very dear as our Quran-e-Pak is in this language and this book is known as the best source of arabic grammar.

Shaheed by its definition is used for those people only whom i have already told u.Now this language in this region by the Muslims or i should say was introduced by the muslims, so were its worlds that developed into other regional languages like u said.

yours actual language was Sanskrit, which is not spoken by many due to the reasons i dont know or dont wanna discuss.But i will surly not like the same for my language or those which i speak or love eg life how much israelis like Hebrew n prefer to speak it but actually its a dead language its just now in last 50 years them have revived it.Do u know why? because the religious book of jews r in hebrew n how will they understand that book if they dont know how to speak or write it.

Just like them we r also religious so r the muslims in all over the world who r now with God's grace r 20% of world's population.So its not something align to us(my countrymen) only its the same thing the muslims all over do including in yr country.Now as far as i know yr replacing the world of other non indian languages from yr hindi n r making it a pure indian nation language.So why to use the word Shaheed for yr dead soldiers, why not some word from yr native languages.

Is this asking for too much from u people??That too a word which is by its definition is wrong to use by yr people??
regarding bhagat singh i told u that no one labels him as shaheed here i dont know abt yr country. But in 830s when he had died fighting british the world was just used by the muslims collectively out of their ignorance or to pay a respect to their dead comrade. As the 1830s n 1857's fight for liberation was instigated by Jamiyat-e-Ulma-e-Hind, Khangah Raipur etc
Those were all Muslims n had fought for the power for the Muslims in general because before british the muslims were the tourh bearers of south asia n by general principal after british the power should be back to the muslims.Yes u can argue that they were fighting in the 'non religious basis' without the greed of power as they never used to thought in that way back then as the harmony b/w them was so great that they used to trust eachother.the world secular was not used there because in Islam this word is not used nor is appreciated specially the picture that is painted by west of this word n its meaning n it u know the british had also declared it as a secular state after 1857. But still we kept on fighting them against them n their principals,eg Tahreek-e-Reshmi rumal etc.

in the end u said that Pak has signed the pact n accuse us of being a narrow minded, n abused us of a moronic religious etc. n that is why i had mentioned above the u in yr all life have heard things against us in yr mind the evil starts an ends in our country n further more its u who accuse us that we thing like that......But still u havnt mentioned my actual point abt our soldier Sepoy Makbool how was he treated in yr country n what u did to him as the was a POW of 1948 war.But still u want to ignore that and want us to be good with yr soldiers just because we have signed a paper who says that n that paper is signed by u too, but u dont bother to follow it.

If its true then my friend ur embarrassing yr self here. Goodbye.

 

[Umair Nawaz]

Would it shock you if I said there were Arab christians also ?

and this word is not used for them either. I challenge u to show me a person who is a non-muslim arab n the word shaheed is used in this name n who had actually respected in the country or region.

Let me make the challenge easy for u , Egypt has the highest number of Coptic christians more then 10 million i think. Tell me from Egypt only?.

 

[ashokdeiva]

and this word is not used for them either. I challenge u to show me a person who is a non-muslim arab n the word shaheed is used in this name n who had actually died for the country.

Let me make the challenge easy for u , Egypt has the highest number of Coptic christians more then 10 million i think. Tell me from Egypt only?.

ultimately what you want to say, that we can not use the word.
if you say that, who are you to say that, the word is not copy righted and can be used in any language with a different or same meaning as it is defined in its etymology

 

[akkamala]

and this word is not used for them either. I challenge u to show me a person who is a non-muslim arab n the word shaheed is used in this name n who had actually died for the country.

Let me make the challenge easy for u , Egypt has the highest number of Coptic christians more then 10 million i think. Tell me from Egypt only?.

taroq aziz of iraq was a non muslim arab. you are a fundamentalist and dangeours person

 

[Umair Nawaz]

taroq aziz of iraq was a non muslim arab. you are a fundamentalist and dangeours person

and tell me weather he is designated as shaheed??? answer is no

 

[Umair Nawaz]

ultimately what you want to say, that we can not use the word.
if you say that, who are you to say that, the word is not copy righted and can be used in any language with a different or same meaning as it is defined in its etymology

Im a Muslim the follower n believer in Quran n Prophet hood, all i was saying that why dont u people change is word too like u r changing all the non indian language words from hindi too n making it pure indian native's language!! also because this world has tp change because by its definition it cant be used for those who dont resist or fight for the cause of All Mighty n his will.
For more info refer to my post #213.

 

[Joe Shearer]

I dont know weather to laugh at u or cry at yr state.(1)
Yr at best an enemy soldier who was trained mentally n physically to invade our homeland n destroy us n infrastructure.so its very obvious that u will never understand us or our view point even if we try our best because in yr core u have spent yr youth n major part of yr life hearing things against us or our religion.

(1) No such doubts here, formerly_Bhaijan_while_you_were_presenting_your_sweet_and_reasonable_face, when I look at your spellings, your language and read your posts and understand your thought processes, there is at best laughter. You are a joke. Period. Bhaijan.

I have spent the majority of my adult life defending the freedom of all to practice their own religion, so your resounding peroration falls flat. That is, if I had sought or needed your certificate in the first place. It is not wanted.

After reading yr comment i thought of never replying to it.(2) But then i thought that yr an indian soldier 'or an ex soldier' and u r in a Pakistani military forum the same military or the nation that u people dont like even how much u try to prove here but still we know the way u post yr threads n posts here they speak louder then anything else.(3)

(2) A very good thought. If only you had stuck manfully to your resolution, rather than weakening and making a cake of yourself.

(3) My threads and posts do speak louder than anything else. Do you have the courage to put it to the test and ask the sane and balanced members of the forum what they represent? Rather than volunteering your own shallow prejudices for the purpose?

'God' as the escape goat.

You talk of 'escape goat' and then you have the infernal cheek to talk of others embarrassing themselves? Don't you think it is time you followed your own sage advice and tried to stop embarrassing yourself?

Mr all i can say is stop embarrassing yourself further as u should know where u r posting yr comments n whom ur talking to, as we r muslim from a Muslim majority country our religion guides our lives in every way. No matter how muslim become a secular or tries to copy or becomes a copycat of non muslims, still in the end of the day he is a muslim that is something in his core that cant be changed.

Fascinating. Other than fellow Muslims, do you have any support for this fantasy? Do you realise how ridiculous this sounds, other than to a primitive mind?

So we using God, Allah or Islam should not come as a surprise or something annoying to u.(4) In islam we name the arabic names ok my name Umair is also arabic also other names like Abdul Wahab, Abdul Mannan, Abdul Jabbar etc r also Arabic.(5) Our language is also a mixture of arabic,(6) this language(7) is also taught in our schools too as an optional language because so we can understand the Quran-e-Pak better in its first language as what in it Allah All Mighty wants us to do in this life n after life, what is the purpose of creation of the mankind, why r human beings r divided into different faiths,nationalities, languages,regions etc.These basic things as well as many r answered by All Mighty himself in the book so to learn them n move on from hese basic things mentally towards more n more future development of human kind both spiritually,mentally.

(4) It never did. You just used something called the straw man fallacy. You just proclaimed that I believe or say something that I never believed or said, just so that you could knock it down, to the wild cheers of the galleries. Time to wake up. You are lying when you say that your using God, Allah or Islam comes as a surprise or as something annoying to me. Please show me the passage where I have said so, or apologise in public for being a deceitful liar.

(5) A practice, not a requirement. There are millions of Muslims who do not have Arabic names.

(6) And which language is this, that is a mixture of Arabic? Punjabi? Or Sindhi? Or Baloch? Or Pushto, perhaps? Is it Urdu? Please favour me with the fruits of your research into languages, O wise one, formerly Bhaijan.

(7) You spoke, two or three words ago, of 'your' language being a mixture of Arabic, and now you seem to be speaking about pure Arabic. Is it too much to ask you to make up your mind? Or at least ask your school-teacher to help you?

Now if u understand the arabic language,it is such a vast n deep language n also the worlds their meanings n their use of sentence can be changed just by pronouncing them in a different way too. To us the muslims this language is very dear as our Quran-e-Pak is in this language and this book is known as the best source of arabic grammar.

Rhetoric and bombast. If we can move on from the school boyish effusions, we might get ahead. A little.

Shaheed by its definition is used for those people only whom i have already told u.

Just repeating what you have said earlier does not make it stronger or more credible.

Now this language in this region(8) by the Muslims or i should say was introduced by the muslims, so were its worlds that developed into other regional languages like u said.

(8) Which language, and in which region, genius?

yours actual language was Sanskrit,(9) which is not spoken by many due to the reasons i dont know or dont wanna discuss.But i will surly not like the same for my language or those which i speak or love eg life how much israelis like Hebrew n prefer to speak it but actually its a dead language its just now in last 50 years them have revived it.Do u know why? because the religious book of jews r in hebrew n how will they understand that book if they dont know how to speak or write it.

(9) Ah, actually it was not Sanskrit, and never was Sanskrit. You are as ignorant on this matter as you are on all others.

Just like them we r also religious so r the muslims in all over the world who r now with God's grace r 20% of world's population.So its not something align to us(my countrymen)(10) only its the same thing the muslims all over do including in yr country.Now as far as i know yr replacing the world of other non indian languages from yr hindi n r making it a pure indian nation language.(11) So why to use the word Shaheed for yr dead soldiers, why not some word from yr native languages.(12)

(10) What is the meaning of 'align to us'? It means, although not in grammatically correct form, lined up with you. Is that what you mean, or do you mean 'alien'? Do you understand what 'alien' means? Or did you just feel it was worth using? Why enter into discussions where apparently you know only Arabic and I know no language that you do?

(11) If that is as far as you know, then you know very little. There are 23 languages that are recognised by the Republic of India, including English, and official documentation may be in any of them. Urdu is one of them.

File:South Asian Language Families.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

(12) Because Shaheed is a perfectly good word in Urdu, and Urdu happens to be one of our languages. We use more than one word for our dead soldiers, and Shaheed happens to be one of them. Live with it.

Is this asking for too much from u people??That too a word which is by its definition is wrong to use by yr people??

Do you seriously imagine that your sectarian prejudices will deflect a nation of 1200 million people? Really? Who decided, apart from you, that by its definition, the word Shaheed is reserved for Pakistanis? Words belong to those who use them, not those who seek to put them in boxes and preserve them for their own use.

regarding bhagat singh i told u that no one labels him as shaheed here i dont know abt yr country.(13) But in 830s when he had died fighting british the world was just used by the muslims collectively out of their ignorance or to pay a respect to their dead comrade. As the 1830s n 1857's fight for liberation was instigated by Jamiyat-e-Ulma-e-Hind, Khangah Raipur etc
Those were all Muslims n had fought for the power for the Muslims in general because before british the muslims were the tourh bearers of south asia n by general principal after british the power should be back to the muslims.(14)

Yes u can argue that they were fighting in the 'non religious basis' without the greed of power as they never used to thought in that way back then as the harmony b/w them was so great that they used to trust eachother.the world secular was not used there because in Islam this word is not used nor is appreciated specially the picture that is painted by west of this word n its meaning n it u know the british had also declared it as a secular state after 1857. But still we kept on fighting them against them n their principals,eg Tahreek-e-Reshmi rumal etc.

(13) We do. Google and find out, since your knowledge is narrow and hide-bound, and restricted to sources that are mainly sectarian.

(14) Your ignorance seems limitless. Bhagat Singh was martyred in 1931.

Bhagat Singh; 27 September 1907*– 23 March 1931)[2] was an Indian nationalist considered to be one of the most influential revolutionaries of the Indian independence movement. He is often referred to as Shaheed Bhagat Singh, the word "Shaheed" meaning "martyr" in a number of Indian languages.[4][5][6] Born into a Sandhu Jat Sikh family which had earlier been involved in revolutionary activities against the British Raj,

The rest of what you believe is laughable in its inaccuracy. Muslims were involved in the freedom struggle, as much as other communities were. They did not take the lead, not even in 1857. Other than in the fantasies of school children who try to cut bold figures without knowing what they are talking about.

in the end u said that Pak has signed the pact n accuse us of being a narrow minded, n abused us of a moronic religious etc. (15)

Where? You might be moronic; it is not impossible. Would I describe the whole nation that you claim to belong to as moronic, for that reason? No. So you are lying again.

And, of course, revealing what in your inner mind is an accusation that goes to the core.

n that is why i had mentioned above the u in yr all life have heard things against us in yr mind the evil starts an ends in our country n further more its u who accuse us that we thing like that(16)

(16) Do you think I need - we need certificates of our secular outlook from a benighted bigot such as you?

......But still u havnt mentioned my actual point abt our soldier Sepoy Makbool how was he treated in yr country n what u did to him as the was a POW of 1948 war.But still u want to ignore that and want us to be good with yr soldiers just because we have signed a paper who says that n that paper is signed by u too, but u dont bother to follow it.

I have never spoken about this subject before because it is such an emotive issue with you. However, confronted by your utter stupidity, and total ignorance, I am forced to set certain fundamental things right.

My reconstruction is based exclusively on reports and accounts that have appeared in the Pakistani press and from Pakistani posters.

(a) Maqbool was not a POW.
(b) He was not captured in 1948. No account mentions this year, but you. And your ignorance surpasses anybody else by huge amounts, so that kind of blunder is not surprising.
(c) He was part of Operation Gibraltar in 1965. Perhaps you have heard of it. If not, search within the annals of PDF for more information.
(d) The armed commandos in civilian garb who infiltrated Jammu & Kashmir were not entitled to the protection of the Geneva Conventions once they abandoned their military uniform and their identification. In effect, they were terrorists, like every other terrorist, and subject to the laws of the land, not of the Geneva Conventions.
(e) His supposed writings have never been made public, and have been used solely as propaganda material by ISPR. What credibility do they have?

In contrast, Saurabh Kalia and his detachment were uniformed soldiers on a regular patrol through territory that was within Indian control and ambushed and captured. There is no comparison between the two cases, as anyone not an absolute idiot could have seen for himself. But then you are in a class by yourself.

If its true then my friend ur embarrassing yr self here. Goodbye.

You use the word embarrassing a lot. I wonder if you even understand what you have done to yourself and to the causes that you support.

 

[Kloitra]

^^^^^ I laughed so hard at your post!
But it would be all greek to him.

 

[Joe Shearer]

^^^^^ I laughed so hard at your post!
But it would be all greek to him.

He is a scrubby little schoolboy out to impress the grown-ups. I wrote for the record, for the thoughtful, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, wherever, whatever.

 

[A1Kaid]

What's unacceptable is the illegal occupation in IoK. Hence, events like Kargil and Mumbai happened in the first place...

 

[Kloitra]

He is a scrubby little schoolboy out to impress the grown-ups. I wrote for the record, for the thoughtful, Pakistani, Bangladeshi, Indian, wherever, whatever.

Always welcome. Your posts are indeed a treat.

 

[Joe Shearer]

What's unacceptable is the illegal occupation in IoK. Hence, events like Kargil and Mumbai happened in the first place...

It is nothing short of perverted to justify the killings of over a hundred men, women and children because you (mistakenly) believe that there is an illegal occupation of a part of Kashmir.

When your disguised commandos attacked Kashmir, and assaulted government employees and installations and facilities, and India counter-attacked across the international borders, your country screamed to the high heavens that this was improper, that your actions had taken place in disputed territory, that you were being attacked outside that disputed territory. Why did that logic suddenly fail when it came to Mumbai?

When there is a dispute and two sides resort to warfare to sort it out, even accepting that the kind of assault by armed thugs amounted to an act of war, there are rules and conventions guiding the conduct of war. Why did that ruling fail in the case of Saurabh Kalia and his men?

 

[third eye]

What's unacceptable is the illegal occupation in IoK. Hence, events like Kargil and Mumbai happened in the first place...

The two are simply not connected and have nothing to with each other at all.

On one hand there was an instance during the Kargil times wherein a Pak officer was awarded a gallantry award by his nation based on what the IA had to say of him.

Compare this with what PA did to this young officer & his team.

Lastly, Pak too occupies large parts of J&K , yet India respects their dead. Let me know if you want to see a video on this.