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Kargil: A Debacle or A Lost Opportunity?

For how long you are on this forum? Have you not yet understood the mindset of the most of the Pakistanis in general and the Pakistanis in Armed Forces in particular? Have you not sensed the false superiority complex of Pakistanis? Have you not yet sensed that we (not all of us though) think of you as lowly, vegetarian, dark-skinned, short-heighted and cowardly Hindus? Why you are still failed to find out the 'weird bunch of reasons'?

"Have you not yet sensed that we (not all of us though) think of you as lowly, vegetarian, dark-skinned, short-heighted and cowardly Hindus?"

sir,

haha, U cant be more right in explicitly clubbing together things what i refered as "weird bunch of reasons".

And i'm old enough in my age to be careful not to be hurtful towards my hosts here as guest on a pakistani forum and again i've been here long enough to know that smart members can easily infer what i meant by "weird bunch of reasons".

So i didnt fail to find out ,but just stopped on my way to explain them fully.

Because i think i see lot many indians who exhibit " socalled pakistnai attitude towards indians" among each other.Yaa , there are lot many indians with rough macho attitude same characteristics we see here also championed by many pakistanis.

Now seriously speaking,the way i see it...i would blame these miscalculations more as desperation on part of the pakistani establishments where it want to act on any plan with slightest hope of pushing its own agenda in the whole kashmir dispute while often disregarding practicality of such plans .

Pakistan is desparate about kashmir for very understandable reasons.So kargil debacle or not will repeat itself in future.
 
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Real truth Kargil WAR..

There are two ‘truths’ about Kargil. The first one is the version of defeatist Pakistanis who can’t see us doing any good. And the second truth is the Indian one.
Surprisingly, some fair minded former Indian army officers are willing to give a balanced verdict on the Pakistani performance in Kargil than the ridiculous assessments of some defeatist and self-hating Pakistanis who have no problem making fun of their homeland and their military just because they differ politically with Gen. Pervez Musharraf.

I would like to give some of these defeatist Pakistanis a shock: The revealing statement to a Pakistani newspaper, The News, of an Indian army officer having something good to say about the Pakistani military capability as demonstrated in Kargil in 1999. Some of the defeatist, self-hating Pakistanis will find this difficult to swallow since they are more accustomed to criticizing Pakistan, not praising it.

Read the letter below by retired Col. Harish Puri from the Indian army’s Corps of Signals. He uses many of the Indian propaganda lines that raise doubts about the end result of the Pakistani operation, how the Indian people came together in those days to support their military, and how Islamabad underestimated the Indian response.

All propaganda points. But then he makes two points very clear that I wish some of those self-hating defeatist Pakistanis, especially the ones in our English-language liberal newspapers, read and feel some shame – just a little – about how they have been putting Pakistan down whenever discussing Kargil and facilitating the propaganda victory of the other side.

The two points that Col. Puri makes are:


It is correct to praise the brilliance of the Pakistani tactical maneuver of stealthily occupying the heights and the massive Indian intelligence failure exploited by the Pakistani military.


The Pakistani military in professional terms ranks among the best in the world, along with the Indian army according to Col. Puri. The implicit irony here is that India is fives times larger than Pakistan. For Islamabad to create this balance of power in just five decades is a Pakistani achievement.

This is not about clearing the name of Gen. Musharraf. History, and military analysts, will do that. Our job here is just to tell those few, self-bashing, defeatist-minded Pakistanis this: Please spare us your self-hatred. We are good at anything we want to be good at if we put our mind into it. Celebrate your strength instead of wallowing in your weaknesses.




Kargil – nine years later


Letters to the editor, The News International, Karachi.


Sunday, May 18, 2008

This is in reference to an article “Kargil — none years on” by Brigadier Sher Khan published in your newspaper on May 6. It was an absorbing article which transported me back to my days in the Indian army, and that particular conflict. My reflections, nine years on, focus on the utter futility of the whole exercise — it doesn’t matter which side you’re on, a soldier’s life is always precious, and sadly, expendable as well.

You’re right about the brilliance of the tactical manoeuvre of occupying the heights so stealthily, and about the massive intelligence failure on our part. But the
Pakistan army underestimated both the ferocity of the Indian reaction as well as the resolve of the Indian nation – never have I seen an entire population come together as one nation as in those days. That was heady stuff — a young Capt Vikram Batra declaring “Yeh dil maange more” only to lose his life the next day. And the bravado of Capt Kamal Sher Khan is the stuff legends are made of. But, in the ultimate analysis, to what end?

War is too dangerous a game to be left to generals alone. Fortunately in India, the civilians call the shots, and Vajpayee’s conscious decision not to allow his troops to cross the LoC was a major factor for India’s gaining the high moral ground.

But let us as army men salute the spirit of the soldiers on both sides — professionally, both our armies rank among the best in the world.

Col (retd) Harish Puri

Indian Army (Corps of Signals),

Pune, India



pakistani1 added 2 Minutes and 32 Seconds later...

The Kargil Conflict between Pakistan and India took place in Kashmir between May and July 1999, the objective of the whole conflict was to cut off the link between Kashmir and Ladakh by hitting National Highway No.1 (NH 1) and cause Indian forces to withdraw from the Siachen Glacier forcing India to negotiate and resolve the decade old Kashmir dispute.




Detailed map of Control Line showing the flash points Kargil and Drass sectors with NH 1 passing along them.




Controlling the peaks of Kargil




Pakistan Army shelling Indian Army positions.




A Mujahid takes position on a ridge in a battle with the Indian Army during the Kargil conflict.




Pak Army soldiers with the tail of Indian fighter jet MiG-27 in Hunzi Ghund in Pakistan territory.
 
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Real truth Kargil WAR..
The real truth about the Kargil conflict is, Pakistan achieved nothing. India has another route to supply its troops in Siachen. However, that route is not all-weather. Neither militarily, nor politically, nor morally did Pakistan achieve anything. During the conflict, even our friends kept a distance with us and internationally we got isolated.

What changed after the Kargil? Did UN adopt another resolution to hold free and fair elections in Kashmir so that they can decide if they want to go with Pakistan? Or did the Indian troops stop killing the Kashmiris? Or did we get Siachen back? Just give me one result that went in the favor of Pakistan after Kargil, just one.
 
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DAWN.COM | Columnists | Brass of a very special kind


Quote:
THIS past week the Commando, and his sidekick the Private Banker, or shall we say Tweedledum and Tweedledee, were interviewed by a private TV channel in London, where they live in the lap of luxury after shoving the country into the pit it is in. By gad, do they have brass, the both of them!

The most interesting part of the Commando’s interview was the Kargil misadventure. As usual, he stood the matter on its head and, again as usual, fibbed away to glory with panache, and flair that only the very brazen have, and asserted that he never advised Nawaz Sharif that we should withdraw from Kargil.

On the July 3, 1999, the Commando tells us, he briefed the defence committee of the cabinet on the ‘military aspects’ of Kargil. He says he told the DCC that of the five ‘places’ (whatever the term means), the Indians had only taken one back; had taken two or three posts in one, and that three were completely ‘untouched’ because they did not even know we were there — ‘un ko pataa hee nahin tha’.

He also ‘analysed a limited war with India in Kashmir’, whatever that means, as also the air and naval aspects of a ‘total war’ with India. According to himself, he told Nawaz Sharif and 15 others present there, including the air and navy chiefs, that ‘we were militarily alright’ and that the Indians were on a ‘very, very weak wicket’. They were ‘weak’ said the Commando because they had ‘moved all their forces to Kargil as also all their artillery’. ALL their forces; ALL their artillery?! Little wonder that we got ourselves in the sort of trouble that we did under his able command, what?

Throughout the briefing, says the Commando, Nawaz Sharif kept asking him if we should withdraw from Kargil to which he replied that he had given his ‘military assessment’ and that it was now for the prime minister to take the ‘political decision’.

Then he goes into the details of how, a day later, he was called back from a weekend in Murree with his family — this weekend at a time that our poorly equipped and poorly fed soldiers were dying in Kargil please note — to meet Nawaz Sharif at the Islamabad airport where the PM told him he was off to Washington, and asked him yet again if we should withdraw from Kargil. To which he answered as theretofore.

Of course, the Commando conveniently forgot to tell us poor Pakistanis who were witness to the Kargil disaster these many years ago, and who were now listening agog to this nonsense, that his tight buddy Marine Gen Anthony Zinni, then commander US Central Command, had visited Pakistan in the third week of June and had met him first and then the PM.

In Gen Zinni’s own words in his book Battle Ready (GP Putnam’s Sons): ‘I was … directed by the administration to head a presidential mission to Pakistan to convince Prime Minister Sharif and General Musharraf to withdraw their forces from Kargil. I met with the Pakistani leaders in Islamabad on June 24 and 25 and put forth a simple rationale for withdrawing: ‘If you don’t pull back, you’re going to bring war and nuclear annihilation down on your country. That’s going to be very bad news for everybody’.

‘Nobody actually quarreled with this rationale. The problem for the Pakistani leadership was the apparent national loss of face. Backing down and pulling back to the Line of Control looked like political suicide. We needed to come up with a face-saving way out of this mess. What we were able to offer was a meeting with President Clinton, which would end the isolation that had long been the state of affairs between our two countries, but we would announce the meeting only after a withdrawal of forces. That got Musharraf’s attention and he encouraged Prime Minister Sharif to hear me out.

‘Sharif was reluctant to withdraw before the meeting with Clinton was announced (again, his problem was maintaining face); but after I insisted, he finally came around and he ordered the withdrawal. We set up a meeting with Clinton in July.’

Again, exactly a year later (June 20, 2000) this is what Gen Zinni said in Abu Dhabi: ‘I talked to Mr Sharif and the chief of staff and convinced them to take steps to ease tensions and to withdraw from Kargil. They agreed. There was no interest I found in the Pakistanis to see the situation escalate beyond control from either side and they cooperated, making the decision on their own,’ he said.

If this doesn’t prove beyond a shadow of doubt that the Commando played fast and free with his office and the authority flowing from it then nothing will; from first starting Kargil, and then lying about how well we were doing. Nor was this the only misstatement of facts indulged in by him during the interview which the interviewer should have pointed out. In the matter of the mayhem in Swat, and the delayed action of the security establishment, he has tried to put the main blame on the elected government that was nowhere on the scene when he and his cohorts were making a mess of things.
 
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Why is that every person who talks about Kargil War in Pakistan is always negative? We have been watching so much Indian NEWS that our minds are filled with the nonsense which they want. Kargil war was nothing more then a skirmish fought on the PA could have made extensive territorial gains into India if Nawaz Sharif hadn't been thinking about his damn seat. Also Indian Causalities were very high as compared to PA's.
Every Pakistani believes in anything that the Politicians say, Nawaz Sharif said we lost 3000+ soldiers just to come into power and disgrace Musharaf, and our people believe that which is really sad. Also who gives the FRIGGIN RIGHT to our politicians to use the Army for their stupid "Power" Game.
 
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Why is that every person who talks about Kargil War in Pakistan is always negative? We have been watching so much Indian NEWS that our minds are filled with the nonsense which they want. Kargil war was nothing more then a skirmish fought on the PA could have made extensive territorial gains into India if Nawaz Sharif hadn't been thinking about his damn seat. Also Indian Causalities were very high as compared to PA's.
Every Pakistani believes in anything that the Politicians say, Nawaz Sharif said we lost 3000+ soldiers just to come into power and disgrace Musharaf, and our people believe that which is really sad. Also who gives the FRIGGIN RIGHT to our politicians to use the Army for their stupid "Power" Game.

Why not have an open inquiry and let the truth come out ?

The PA will never let it happen. If that happens then

Gen M will be living in the house next door to AQK

Regards
 
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the PA could have made extensive territorial gains into India if Nawaz Sharif hadn't been thinking about his damn seat..
Read the above article - it says withdrawal was Musharraf's idea as well. why blame takloo for it?

Also who gives the FRIGGIN RIGHT to our politicians to use the Army for their stupid "Power" Game.

because the army launches stupid offensives without war gaming the consquences :enjoy:
 
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We did well in Kargil
1.Pakistani strength was 5000 facing 30,000 Indians.
2.Pakistani troops got no air support where Indian got full air support.
3.Pakistani troop’s morale was high before and after the war by facing such number of odds and gave Indian hard time.
4.Pakistanis shows there stealth and create fear in Indians heart that Pakistani army is near you.
5.Pakistan did achieve something by showing Indian that heavy equipment and number do not matter.
 
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Remember Pakistani withdraw from kargil and never surrender. Pakistani men fought in kargil were never defeated.
Pakistan army zindabad
Pakistan paindabad
 
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Remember Pakistani withdraw from kargil and never surrender. Pakistani men fought in kargil were never defeated.
Pakistan army zindabad
Pakistan paindabad

Oh really?

1) Can Please tell what are the position of Pak Army in India When the Kargil Start?

2) What are position of Pak Army when kargil End (when they start Withdrawn)?

3) If War run for one more Month , Those positions was also been cleared by then.
 
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Remember Pakistani withdraw from kargil and never surrender. Pakistani men fought in kargil were never defeated.
Pakistan army zindabad
Pakistan paindabad


yeah right

No wonder nawaz sharif begged bill clinton for help

No wonder nawaz sharif admitted that pakistan had less than 2 weeks of fuel left to engage in a war because indian navy had blocked all pakistani ports

No wonder US requested india to enforce a ceasefire

You are right , you won :pakistan:
 
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Gen Zinni’s own words in his book Battle Ready (GP Putnam’s Sons): ‘I was … directed by the administration to head a presidential mission to Pakistan to convince Prime Minister Sharif and General Musharraf to withdraw their forces from Kargil. I met with the Pakistani leaders in Islamabad on June 24 and 25 and put forth a simple rationale for withdrawing: ‘If you don’t pull back, you’re going to bring war and nuclear annihilation down on your country. That’s going to be very bad news for everybody’.


well this sums it up....pakistan was winning and inorder to ease the pressure INDIA was threatning to open a new front 1965 repeated....the only diffrence this time was the NUKES.....india imported coffins...india engaged 3 divisions and changed military commanders repeatedly!!

pakistans flawed policy was that airforce & navy were kept in the darkness...so was our PM....& we never expected ISRAEL to send in PODS to be fitted on the indian mirages!!
 
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@ sarthak can you give me a link saying we had 2 weeks of fuel left & india was blocking our ports....
 
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Gen Zinni’s own words in his book Battle Ready (GP Putnam’s Sons): ‘I was … directed by the administration to head a presidential mission to Pakistan to convince Prime Minister Sharif and General Musharraf to withdraw their forces from Kargil. I met with the Pakistani leaders in Islamabad on June 24 and 25 and put forth a simple rationale for withdrawing: ‘If you don’t pull back, you’re going to bring war and nuclear annihilation down on your country. That’s going to be very bad news for everybody’.


well this sums it up....pakistan was winning and inorder to ease the pressure INDIA was threatning to open a new front 1965 repeated....the only diffrence this time was the NUKES.....india imported coffins...india engaged 3 divisions and changed military commanders repeatedly!!

pakistans flawed policy was that airforce & navy were kept in the darkness...so was our PM....& we never expected ISRAEL to send in PODS to be fitted on the indian mirages!!

winning my a** :woot:. From zinnis account, everyone in pakistan was interested in saving face and withdrawing. NO country withdraws from a winning position .

and if INdia was threatening to open a 2nd front and you guys were not ready - sorry you guys were NOT winning at all :D
 
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. There were constant reports of our troops on the LOC disturbed to see, or hear, IAF fighters operating with apparent impunity.

After one week of CAPs, the F-16 maintenance personnel indicated that war reserve spares were being eaten into and that the activity had to be ‘rationalised’, a euphemism for discontinuing it altogether.

and the PAF stayed away from battle

All the same, it gave the enemy no pretext for retaliation in the face of any provocation

and if you were winning why did this happen?

Come change-over time of the Chief of Air Staff in 2001, President Musharraf struck at PAF’s top leadership in what can only be described as implacable action: he passed over all five Air Marshals and appointed the sixth-in-line who was practically an Air Vice Marshal till a few weeks before. While disregarding of seniority in the appointment of service chiefs has historically been endemic in the country, the practice has been seen as breeding nepotism and partiality, besides leaving a trail of conjecture and gossip in the ranks.

yes, you guys were winning, we were licked. :enjoy::enjoy::enjoy::bounce:
 
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