Karachi, Sindh - Pakistan's achilles heal?

[Norwegian]

But Sindhi muslims too are hypocrites. Before 1947 they worried about Sindhi hindus domination and pushed for Pakistan before Punjab and KPK. After 1947 they became Sindhi nationalists just like Bengalis.

Sindhi Muslims are slaves of their own fuedals for centuries. Their opinions are irrelevant.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Let's not get embroiled in any agenda I might have. Every gawd damned thread on PDF has some ulterior driver behind it with a axe to grind. Rather, can we please address the issues I raised from reliable sources. The fact is simple.

Sindh is Sindhi majority. Sindhi's overwhelingly stand behind PPP and there is not much me or you can do about that. Irrespcive of corruption etc. This also applies to the Mohajir community who are gathered around on the other side of the pole. As we saw despite claiming to be middle class and educated for decades they stood behind Altaf Hussain despite his connections to murder and Indian RAW.

Unfortunately both sides are dug in and will not change. Any attempt to carve Karachi out of Sindh or attemp to truncate it would result in a catastrophic reaction from all Sindhi based parties. We all know what happened in Bangla 1971.

Thus rest of Pakistan is hostage to this fragile situation. I can't see any solution but for sake of rest of the 170 million people of Pakistan - the vast majority who are held hostage to this situation a insurance policy needs to be built up.

By that I mean Gwadar must be built up fast. A Western Corridor needs to be quickly laid out. Trade from up country must have alternative to use Gwadar. National entities like PIA used by all of Pakistan need to shift to Islamabad. With this contingency in place at least rest of Pakistan will have insurance should doomsday or Bangla V2 repeat itself and Sindh blows up. Again India would be drawn into this by supporting one group against another. But if things do go badly Pakistan can survive if Gwadar is functioning and fully connected to the north.

I say this because I cannot see any government having the political strength to resolve this issue. That includes political or even a military government. The situation is too entrenched and problem too large. Over the next decade construction of and re-orientation of trade corridor to provide a alternative so the country cannot be held hostage. At least restof Pakistan will be insulated from any madness in Karachi.

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Are you trying to fool us?

How Karachi was progressing then in era of Musharraf?

It was this same city....The difference was it was then governed by those who owned Karachi

It is a matter of WILL....only

Now you are are eyeing on Gwadar...Well, there are problems

1. Not building up anytime soon
2. Baloch dudes sitting at top of mountain
3. Americans/Indians/Iranians and may be Arabs - all are involved in Balochistan in terms of agencies

Cities are not just built by port.............It requires a functional vibrant middle class which Karachi has while Gwadar.......yet to be seen

Instead of resolving issues of Karachi, some are thinking to just overlook it and develop alternate of it

Very sad.

Karachi is not going anywhere.

Karachi goes down, WHOLE PAKISTAN goes down

Karachi is called Mini Pakistan for a reason.

 

[Norwegian]

Sindhis were not incompetent, just not good at urdu which is foreign language for them.

So this justified appointment of PPP workers in Pakistani institutions and departments outside the principles of meritocracy?

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Of course. Establishment needs PPP to rule Sindh in order to suppress real Sindhi nationalists. If they awake, they will cause more damage and harm than Baloch or Pashtun nationalists. It's necessary evil as PPP is the only party that can brutally suppress genuine Sindhi nationalists.

No one is stopping ESTABLISHMENT to not kiss *** of Bhutto ----- Just not on at expense of Karachi

Pakistani establishment is notorious for making deals....They can certainly cut for Karachi as well.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

It wasn't elite capture but meritocracy. Urdu speaking migrant community was better educated and a lot more competent than ethnic population of Sindh that was used to live as slaves under their feudal lords.

Would you describe the highly educated European migration to Palestine as example of meritocracy at it's finest? I often have come across this line of thinking by Zionists who harp on about a "land without a people that they turned into paradise".

Of course. Establishment needs PPP to rule Sindh in order to suppress real Sindhi nationalists. If they awake, they will cause more damage and harm than Baloch or Pashtun nationalists. It's necessary evil as PPP is the only party that can brutally suppress genuine Sindhi nationalists.

This is great point you make. First of all I am sure we all know MQM was cultivated by the establishment during Gen Zia's dictatorship as a hedge against the deposed Bhutto's PPP. In other words MQM has been drawn out of the loins of the establishment. Indeed MQM has always worked niclely with every military dictator. Think of Musharaf and how MQM with that Altaf were cuddled into his ruling regime. I bet they did not complain then about the establishment. Under Musharaf they were "living it" and the gravy train flowed.

Now to the critical point you raised. PPP is actually a gift for the establishment right now. What amazes me is how the common Sindhi is so placid and subdued. PPP have actually placated the Sindhi nationalism and their leaders indulge in corruption. At some point if tis changes and the majority Sindh population demands justice you will see incredible force unleashed which will demand even bigger share of Sindh's resources to lift the majority rural Sindhi's up. That would cause a repeat of Bangla 1971 with language and economic disadvantage driving such a movement. We all know that the real victims of economic disadvantage are the rural Sindhi's and not Karachiwallahs despite they getting to shout the loudest on PDF and media.

The crucial time will be when the ordinary Sindhi becomes politically aware as that will create a huge movement waiting to be led by a Sindhi Mujib Rehman. And it won't be Bhutto's because they have too much at stake within the present status quo. This danger will begin to develop in time as rural Sindh wakes up.

Incidentally I have been reading up on the 1947-1971 history of Bangla and amazingly I see analogy between that and this situation. With benefit of hindsight Bangladesh was born as early as 1950 only that nobody bothered to read the situation until it exploded in 1971. I will open a thread on that with detailed historical primary sources. The rural Sindhi really has been treated like the Bangla peasant was treated by Pak elite only that the Bengali found leadership to articuate his misgivings. The Sindhi still waits for his.

 

[Norwegian]

No one is stopping ESTABLISHMENT to not kiss *** of Bhutto ----- Just not on at expense of Karachi

Pakistani establishment is notorious for making deals....They can certainly cut for Karachi as well.

Ethnic nationalists are the biggest threat to establishment. So it only makes sense why they kiss ppp fuedals in Sindh .

Would you describe the highly educated European migration to Palestine as example of meritocracy at it's finest? I often have come across this line of thinking by Zionists who harp on about a "land without a people that they turned into paradise".

Of course. Europeans that migrated to Americas, Australia etc were more educated and competent than their former ethnic groups. This is why previous populations were kicked out or assimilated into the new countries migrants established.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Gwadar isn't simply an insurance policy though

I agree the intention behind it was not as "insurance policy" but in effect that is what it will turn out to be in fullness of time. I believe what they call "redundancy" in engineering.

 

[PaklovesTurkiye]

Would you describe the highly educated European migration to Palestine as example of meritocracy at it's finest? I often have come across this line of thinking by Zionists who harp on about a "land without a people that they turned into paradise".

This is great point you make. First of all I am sure we all know MQM was cultivated by the establishment during Gen Zia's dictatorship as a hedge against the deposed Bhutto's PPP. In other words MQM has been drawn out of the loins of the establishment. Indeed MQM has always worked niclely with every military dictator. Think of Musharaf and how MQM with that Altaf were cuddled into his ruling regime. I bet they did not complain then about the establishment. Under Musharaf they were "living it" and the gravy train flowed.

Now to the critical point you raised. PPP is actually a gift for the establishment right now. What amazes me is how the common Sindhi is so placid and subdued. PPP have actually placated the Sindhi nationalism and their leaders indulge in corruption. At some point if tis changes and the majority Sindh population demands justice you will see incredible force unleashed which will demand even bigger share of Sindh's resources to lift the majority rural Sindhi's up. That would cause a repeat of Bangla 1971 with language and economic disadvantage driving such a movement. We all know that the real victims of economic disadvantage are the rural Sindhi's and not Karachiwallahs despite they getting to shout the loudest on PDF and media.

The crucial time will be when the ordinary Sindhi becomes politically aware as that will create a huge movement waiting to be led by a Sindhi Mujib Rehman. And it won't be Bhutto's because they have too much at stake within the present status quo. This danger will begin to develop in time as rural Sindh wakes up.

Incidentally I have been reading up on the 1947-1971 history of Bangla and amazingly I see analogy between that and this situation. With benefit of hindsight Bangladesh was born as early as 1950 only that nobody bothered to read the situation until it exploded in 1971. I will open a thread on that with detailed historical primary sources.

PPP is itself a Sindhi nationalist party....

Pakistanis can't afford waderas rule anymore in Sindh.

No one is taking Sindh province from Sindhis...

There are other political alternatives in Sindh - like GDA - Pir pugara etc

We are discussing here absence of good governance

Karachi still among world’s 10 least liveable cities

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-11-02/pakistan-s-megacity-tries-to-modernize

 

[Norwegian]

PPP is itself a Sindhi nationalist party....

It's not. PPP is an elitist fuedal party that has nothing to do with genuine Sindhi nationalists such as G M Syed

 

[H. Dawary]

Can I know why Indian migrants were allowed to ONLY move to Karachi en masse during and after partition? Why weren’t they given incentives to re-locate to other provinces? I get that there economic opportunities, however didn’t the leadership of then Pakistan see the problem inherent within?

Having one group of people move to one single area is a recipe for disaster... Tribalism will happen.

 

[Norwegian]

Can I know why Indian migrants were allowed to ONLY move to Karachi en masse during and after partition?

Pakistan was a free country post independence. Migrants could move and settle in any city they wanted. My own grand father settled in Rawalpindi.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

In fact feudal oder with Bhuttos atop of PPP keep Sindhi nationalism in check. All the poor Sindhi's look up to Bhutto's who in turn make sure they keep filling their pockets. When the ordinary Sindhi wakes up and this feaudal dynasty of Bhutto and PPP hold breaks down a new movement will be unleashed that will have popular Sindhi mandate. It clearly will ask for greater share of the economic pie so that the disadvantaged Sindhi can be lifted up. It could even ask for Sindhi language so that employment field is equal as having Urdu confers advantage on some groups to the detriment of others. This danger will develop at some point in the future when Bhuttos have lost their hold. Don';t forget Zardari-Bhuttos are part of the status quo and it does not behove of them to upset the cart. But try removing Karachi from provincial government and that cart will be tripped.

All this was played out in Bangla. Pakistan elite looked down at the Bangla masses. Look at them today. They now have higher human development indices then Pakistan and are racing ahead. Meritocracy is name of a regime where real equality exists. Not some have hands tied.

You can see how Bangladesh has proven itself since 1971.

 

[H. Dawary]

Pakistan was a free country post independence. Migrants could move and settle in any city they wanted. My own grand father settled in Rawalpindi.

The intent behind the act sounds good, the choice to settle anywhere. However, if leadership doesn’t communicate to others that it’s full capacity and make it harder for more migrants settling in that very area where all the rest settled, then the results will be what is happening today.

 

[Indus Pakistan]

Can I know why Indian migrants were allowed to ONLY move to Karachi en masse during and after partition?

Two primary reasons. Push and pull. The ruling government of Pakistan during 1948-1958 when Ayub Khan took over was led by Muslim League leaders from India. They established the capital in Karachi. This was a potent reason as jobs were going to dished out as is given in this part of the world with connections and winks. The second reason was Karachi was only port and offered huge economic opportunities.

It is important to note that the largest migration from India to Pakistan took place from what became Indian Punjab. The Punjabi Muslims from Indian Punjab moved west in to Pakistani Punjab but because of shared ethnicity and language they have assimilated today. However in Karachi the migrants were from non Sindhi backgrounds from across all of india.

So the biggest migration was within Punjab [Indian Punjab to Pak Punjab] but as explained earlier they have assimilated.

Below. It was population transfer within the erstwhile Punjab. It was transfer of same ethnic group across the borders akin to Pakhtuns moving from Nangarhar to neigbouring K-Pk in Pakistan.

 

[Norwegian]

It is important to note that the largest migration from India to Pakistan took place from what became Indian Punjab. The Punjabi Muslims from Indian Punjab moved west in to Pakistani Punjab but because of shared ethnicity and language they have assimilated today. However in Karachi the migrants were from non Sindhi backgrounds from across all of india.

This problem could easily be solved if govt of the time allowed Urdu speaking migrants to establish their own independent city as it happened with Ahmadi community that migrated from Qadian.

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