kalu_miah's new world order, a road map for the future

[junk]

why can't china sort the disputes in SCS? without being agressive!

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Isn't it what China wants too, but before any talks begin you guys already invited the 'white man' here trying to intimidate China to give up without a fight. Even today China advised Philippines not to 'internationalize' the disputes. But no, you guys rather to have 'white men' on you side.

White men have gone to the area are purely commercial purpose and their interests. Such as American, they were present in the area long ago, and they also want to protect their interests. Each year, American goods shipped through the south china sea about 1.2 trillion dollars.
And you are sure that in China there are no white men?

 

[Fanling Monk]

White men have gone to the area are purely commercial purpose and their interests. Such as American, they were present in the area long ago, and they also want to protect their interests. Each year, American goods shipped through the south china sea about 1.2 trillion dollars.
And you are sure that in China there are no white men?

Come on, an intelligent guy trying to pretend you don't understand what I'm talking about.


Back to the topic

@Kula Miah:

I support the idea Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Myanmar and Bangladesh to form one Union.

 

[Norboo]

kalu_miah's new world order?? Does that mean kalu_miah is positioning himself to be the first Sultan of the New World Order? The Illuminati ain't gonna like this one bit!

 

[Diamond_Gold]

No, bro. Now Vietnam is a member of the positive contribution of ASEAN, all members are equal, which is the basis of the association. So, please don't tell me with that tone.
Its purpose is to help each other, not only the advantages but also share common challenges.
South China Sea issue is not only related to Vietnam and the Philippines, but it relates to the whole area.
Are you sure that Singapore is not affected if war occurred in the South China Sea?

Hope you vietnam really follow what you peached here i.e. maintain peace and avoid causing instability in our region for the sake of all east asian countries.
Negotiation is the only solution to dissolve the SCS disputes peacefully. And if vietnam and phillipines really see themselves as responsible members of the group, you should not venture into any sort of conflict especially China is open to negotiation with you guys.
We have coexisted together well for many many years with China, why suddenly want to opt for conflict in the face of an emergence global economy crisis?
Don't you know the important of a peaceful and copperative neighbourhood is the key to prosperity and uplifting from proverty? Do you really think that you can be safe and sound by just adding in a few more oil/gas fields while rest of the neighbourhood is in jeopardy.
Stop this selfish thought, open your own eyes to see the histories and how did selfish neighbours burned each other houses down and made everyone in the neighbourhood suffered all together.It always ended the same, no winner except for the master behind the scene who directed the plot.
Treasure and seize the chance, east asia has never been better since the last few centuries. We can achieve our goals together if we help one another and no oneshould impose themselves and others with unnecessary burdens (i.e. quarrels & conflicts).
Please do it for your children and your love ones by not acting foolishly.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Hope you vietnam really follow what you peached here i.e. maintain peace and avoid causing instability in our region for the sake of all east asian countries.
Negotiation is the only solution to dissolve the SCS disputes peacefully. And if vietnam and phillipines really see themselves as responsible members of the group, you should not venture into any sort of conflict especially China is open to negotiation with you guys.
We have coexisted together well for many many years with China, why suddenly want to opt for conflict in the face of an emergence global economy crisis?
Don't you know the important of a peaceful and copperative neighbourhood is the key to prosperity and uplifting from proverty? Do you really think that you can be safe and sound by just adding in a few more oil/gas fields while rest of the neighbourhood is in jeopardy.
Stop this selfish thought, open your own eyes to see the histories and how did selfish neighbours burned each other houses down and made everyone in the neighbourhood suffered all together.It always ended the same, no winner except for the master behind the scene who directed the plot.
Treasure and seize the chance, east asia has never been better since the last few centuries. We can achieve our goals together if we help one another and no oneshould impose themselves and others with unnecessary burdens (i.e. quarrels & conflicts).
Please do it for your children and your love ones by not acting foolishly.

My friend, You have criticized Vietnam and the Philippines are selfish, but you said that the discussion and sharing in order to find a peaceful solution of disputes between 5 ASEAN members and China in the south china sea are "unnecessary burdens" for the remaining 5 countries?

 

[Diamond_Gold]

My friend, You have criticized Vietnam and the Philippines are selfish, but you said that the discussion and sharing in order to find a peaceful solution of disputes between 5 ASEAN members and China in the south china sea are "unnecessary burdens" for the remaining 5 countries?

How could we help you guys when you were trying to sabortage our ASEAN summit with your SCS agenda. You should know very well how things would go sour if USA is involved, making solving the SCS dispute much harder and risk ruining our cordial relationship with China which is our vital economy engine house. How could you be so selfish or ignorance on when and where to raise such sensitive issue?

If you already so insincere, how could you expect the rest of us ASEAN members to trust you and stand on your side? Not even to mention that you guys and Phillipines are having overlapping claim in SCS as well.

So you see, you can't blame us ASEAN brothers for not willing to help!

And please in the next ASEAN meeting, make sure that you wouldn't be sabortaging us your ASEAN brothers again.

 

[kalu_miah]

Just noticed this conversation in this thread. Please let me repeat a post I made in another thread, as its relevant:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/world-affairs/175895-india-vietnam-co-operation-scs-3.html#post2871244
If China wants to reduce external power influence in ASEAN and East Asia, may be they can do it by supporting the formation of ASEAN+ group (Japan+Korea+ASEAN-10+Sri Lanka+Bangladesh+PNG+Timor Leste). This group with a billion population in a EU type union can form its own security and strategic umbrella like NATO. This will definitely reduce Indian or US influence as there will be no need for strategic alliance with them. Also it will be good for Asian regional economy as it will integrate the region and make borders irrelevant.

The downside for China is that it will have a powerful bloc all around its Southern border. But by helping its formation, may be it can become a permanent ally with this bloc and get the first mover advantage. I am sure Indians lack this kind of vision, so expecting anything from them is a hopeless cause. And US/West are just too short sighted for this kind of project.

Sometimes you have to give something to win big in the long term. I think it is food for thought for Chinese professional strategic thinkers.

 

[kalu_miah]

Kalu_miah, I have a problem want to ask you.
It is a problem in the union of small countries.
How will we address, if one member was bribed by a big external country, aims to serve the interests of the big country, instead of the interests of the union?
Of course, this is very delicate problem, and they will never admit it publicly..
For example recently: ASEAN-Cambodia- and big external country China in the East Sea (south china sea) disputes ...
For example, time ago: anti-American alliance of national liberation Cambodia-Laos-Vietnam and big external country China in the 1970s....

ASEAN-10 itself is not integrated enough yet to prevent this kind of phenomenon. Also ASEAN-10 is not big enough, in my opinion, to be viable against big aspiring powers like China. China is too big and too rich for ASEAN-10. These problems can be solved if Japan and South Korea decide to join ASEAN. They bring in size as well as money, technology and also leadership skills. When Japan and Korea are in ASEAN, Cambodia would never dare to accept bribe, as they can be punished by suspension - and they will not want to be kicked out of a powerful ASEAN+ group that has Japan and South Korea in it. That is my opinion about how to solve this situation with Cambodia.

Kalu_miah have you read the book from maluna mohamed ali?

No. Does it talk about something similar?

@Kula Miah:

I support the idea Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos, Thailand, Myanmar and Bangladesh to form one Union.

Thank you for your support for an union idea. But breaking existing ASEAN-10 just to form the above union may seem problematic. My idea is more like:

ASEAN+ = ASEAN-10+Japan+South Korea+PNG+Timor Leste+Sri Lanka+Bangladesh+Maldives+North Korea

I think it can be allied with China and peacefully resolve many mutual issues in the region.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

How could we help you guys when you were trying to sabortage our ASEAN summit with your SCS agenda. You should know very well how things would go sour if USA is involved, making solving the SCS dispute much harder and risk ruining our cordial relationship with China which is our vital economy engine house. How could you be so selfish or ignorance on when and where to raise such sensitive issue?

If you already so insincere, how could you expect the rest of us ASEAN members to trust you and stand on your side? Not even to mention that you guys and Phillipines are having overlapping claim in SCS as well.

So you see, you can't blame us ASEAN brothers for not willing to help!

And please in the next ASEAN meeting, make sure that you wouldn't be sabortaging us your ASEAN brothers again.

Vietnam and the Philippines wanted to put the disputed south china sea issue on the agenda of ASEAN, it is our opinion, why do you think us "sabotage" the ASEAN summit?
American presence in the area long ago, even before we joined ASEAN.. Furthermore, they are preparing to deploy four warships in Singapore. That is not by us?
In your opinion, why the leaders of ASEAN countries should not put the disputed south china sea issue on the agenda?

 

[Diamond_Gold]

Vietnam and the Philippines wanted to put the disputed south china sea issue on the agenda of ASEAN, it is our opinion, why do you think us "sabotage" the ASEAN summit?
American presence in the area long ago, even before we joined ASEAN.. Furthermore, they are preparing to deploy four warships in Singapore. That is not by us?
In your opinion, why the leaders of ASEAN countries should not put the disputed south china sea issue on the agenda?

Everyone knows someone with an vested interest cannot be fair and just, do you really believe it would be different for USA?

Yes, USA was invited as initially as an observer to ASEAN summit, with an intention to form a bigger EAST Asia bloc to serve our regional interest well. But this does not automatically makes or will make USA a party in our disputes with China. In fact, to have a more cordial way of solving the dispute, USA musn't be involved,. Because we know better than others what are the interests that wouldl serve us the best, which is a long term growth for our region.

Yes, USA is deploying 4 warships in Singapore naval base in accord with our prior defence agreement. The agreement was formed way before China emerged to protect our region against all external threats. However, we Singaporean or ASEAN collectively do not see China as a threat now or in the future.

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Everyone knows someone with an vested interest cannot be fair and just, do you really believe it would be different for USA?

Yes, USA was invited as initially as an observer to ASEAN summit, with an intention to form a bigger EAST Asia bloc to serve our regional interest well. But this does not automatically makes or will make USA a party in our disputes with China. In fact, to have a more cordial way of solving the dispute, USA musn't be involved,. Because we know better than others what are the interests that wouldl serve us the best, which is a long term growth for our region.

Yes, USA is deploying 4 warships in Singapore naval base in accord with our prior defence agreement. The agreement was formed way before China emerged to protect our region against all external threats. However, we Singaporean or ASEAN collectively do not see China as a threat now or in the future.

The more cordial way, which you said, why is not it the discussion and sharing? Why China always seeks to prevent it?

I do not mean to criticize defence agreement Singapore - U.S.
It is your move. Honestly, I always appreciate Singaporeans.
You can read the article at the following link:

Taylor & Francis Online :: America the Indispensable: Singapore's View of the United States

 

[Diamond_Gold]

The more cordial way, which you said, why is not it the discussion and sharing? Why China always seeks to prevent it?

I do not mean to criticize defence agreement Singapore - U.S.
It is your move. Honestly, I always appreciate Singaporeans.
You can read the article at the following link:

Taylor & Francis Online :: America the Indispensable: Singapore's View of the United States

Sharing and discussion with whom? External parties with an personal interests on the disputes i.e. USA? And I have already mentioned earlier by raising the issue in ASEAN summit, it will not help at all but only lead to suspicous on ASEAN's intention by China. Do you have a problem in understanding my point?

So what positive steps had Vietnam take to prevent the dispute? Last I heard was that Vietnamese patrol boat intruded and fired into Taiping island held by ROC. WIth this kind of behaviour, you must be kidding when you complained that China is unwilling to negotiate with you guys.

Peace and stability is a responsiblity of all, do you think it is possible to do without the strongest country on earth? BTW, I wondering why you are sounding so worry?

 

[Battle of Bach Dang River]

Sharing and discussion with whom? External parties with an personal interests on the disputes i.e. USA? And I have already mentioned earlier by raising the issue in ASEAN summit, it will not help at all but only lead to suspicous on ASEAN's intention by China. Do you have a problem in understanding my point?

Of course, discussion and sharing among ASEAN member countries. I did not say that we should discuss the disputed South China Sea with ASEAN partners, for example ASEAN +3...
Normally, ASEAN leaders hold an internal organization meeting first.

You should not be too scared Uncle Sam. You seem to have the mentality of a Chinese than a Singaporean.
I noticed the Singaporean leaders have thought completely different from yours.
Try to read the following link:

Taylor & Francis Online :: America the Indispensable: Singapore's View of the United States

So what positive steps had Vietnam take to prevent the dispute? Last I heard was that Vietnamese patrol boat intruded and fired into Taiping island held by ROC. WIth this kind of behaviour, you must be kidding when you complained that China is unwilling to negotiate with you guys.

We have "fired" on the island, which is occupied by Taiwan? Please provide me with trusted sources in English to confirm about "fire" incident.
Spratly Islands is disputed areas of overlap. No wonder if some incident occurs was called the "intrusion into the waters of the island" due to the other countries is occupied. This problem, no one can do better than China.
But "fire" is completely different problem. You should not put it out as one of your arguments, if you are not sure about it.

Peace and stability is a responsiblity of all, do you think it is possible to do without the strongest country on earth? BTW, I wondering why you are sounding so worry?

Of course not alone I am worried. I think Singaporean leaders are also worried, the evidence that they have allowed four U.S warships deployed there...

 

[Diamond_Gold]

You should not be too scared Uncle Sam.

Me worrying about USA? Could be in some degree. But as a matter of fact, I am/ all singaporeans are more worry about some of our neighbours might destroy our hard earnedpeace and development just for their own greeds. Of course based on my chinese mentality, it actually refers to Vietnam and Philipines.