Kabul protests flag-lowering ceremony at Pak-Afghan

[litman]

what kind of people these afghanis are? they get everything through pak and always blame pak for their own failures. their citizens were given shelter in pak and yet they

 

[JOEY TRIBIANI]

China - Pak - Russie triangle will now 'fix' Afghanistan. Out you and your puppeteer will go.

you know you have to donate a container full of burnol to goverment of india before posting such comments .

 

[Verve]

you know you have to donate a container full of burnol to goverment of india before posting such comments .

All CPEC containers will need to be loaded with burnol eventually and sent to Hindustan .. and even then it may not be enough

Maybe send some Gaviskon as well, for heart burn.

 

[Joe Shearer]

??



Listen mate, I am not here to talk BS, either put up or shutup. I know what I am talking about, I have researched this particular subject. Question is, have you?



Apologies for being blunt. I was hoping the subtle message will go through and some sense will be knocked in.

Let me retry.

When the people of Iraq are accepted as the custodians and builders of the Mesopotamian civilization, when the people of present day Egypt are recognized as the ones who build their civilization along the Nile, why it is so hard for you Indians to accept that Indus was build by the "people of Indus". You lot may get out of your identity crisis if you start looking around in your own lands, there is a pretty solid civilization along the Ganges river which also existed in parallel of Indus. Go and find your traces in there.

I admire your rock-like self-confidence.

In 2009, @roadrunner and I had discussed this matter threadbare, over scores of posts, and volumes of evidence. As a professional student of history, I have fairly good information and knowledge about both the Indus Valley Civilisation and the second urban impulse, what you have breezily called "....a pretty solid civilization along the Ganges river which also existed in parallel of Indus."

Subsequently, as each new cohort of joiners of PDF come out with the same shop-soiled theories, I have, with decreasing enthusiasm, marshalled the facts and presented them. At this moment, I am tired of doing it mechanically every three to six months, and will allow those who insist to retain their fond innocence.

Apart from this parallel existence being baloney, there are numerous clues, based on archaeology, that the cultural traditions of the IVC had slowly been assimilated by succeeding cultures on the extreme fringes of the IVC. Some day when you display a little more humility, we might discuss those occurrences. Just at the moment, I can only defer with amusement to your impertinent assumption that there is no one else who is as well-read as you.

Whatever you say.

 

[Samurai_assassin]

^^
I agree with you.

I hope our wise afghan brother will shed light on the 'daal' issue.

Punjabs national dish isn't even Daal it is spinich with buttered roti as well as potatoe & chickpeas. Daal is the national dish of the Indian state of Gujurat were Modi originates from. Again, no issue with daal as it is a wounderfull dish. Should we mock Afghans for placing raisins and fried carrots on Pilou? Answer is no. Food is a precious commodity of which we should thank the Almighty of providing us. I say each to their own taste!

 

[maximuswarrior]

No one gives a crap about opiumland. Irrelevant and useless. Pakistan should expel every last Afghan from its soil. Let these Afghans go to India.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

I admire your rock-like self-confidence.

In 2009, @roadrunner and I had discussed this matter threadbare, over scores of posts, and volumes of evidence. As a professional student of history, I have fairly good information and knowledge about both the Indus Valley Civilisation and the second urban impulse, what you have breezily called "....a pretty solid civilization along the Ganges river which also existed in parallel of Indus."

Subsequently, as each new cohort of joiners of PDF come out with the same shop-soiled theories, I have, with decreasing enthusiasm, marshalled the facts and presented them. At this moment, I am tired of doing it mechanically every three to six months, and will allow those who insist to retain their fond innocence.

Apart from this parallel existence being baloney, there are numerous clues, based on archaeology, that the cultural traditions of the IVC had slowly been assimilated by succeeding cultures on the extreme fringes of the IVC. Some day when you display a little more humility, we might discuss those occurrences. Just at the moment, I can only defer with amusement to your impertinent assumption that there is no one else who is as well-read as you.

Whatever you say.

By now you should have understood that I dont have much time for your kind, its not just you. If you read my comments, and you dont like what you see, best to avoid me, if you dont have stomach to carry on the debate.

I may have joined this forum recently, but over the years, I have seen off many Indian enthusiast on other forums, who jump on any opportunity to claim IVC as theirs.

I am not disputing the Ganges was influenced by IVC. So was Babylon and Egypt. People fail to realise that IVC is the world oldest civilization/empire. Babylon and Egypt was inhibited by the tribes of Indus, Ibraheem (Brahma as you call) was born here in ancient Pakistan, somewhere near Jamrood in north west Pakistan. His progeny, the bani Israel has come back to these lands, what we now call Pakhtoons. the Ancient hebrews were a tribe of Indus, Noah (Manu as you called) was also the man send to us, the reason why you see all IVC cities buried 10 feet under ground, a typical tsunami after effect. Adam himself, when ejected from Heaven was descended to these lands. How far in history you want to go?

When you are talking about Pakistan, this land, the people, understand that this combo of people and land make the cradle of civilization, from whom came the rest, including you lot and your Ganges civilization.

 

[SleepingLion]

They should be thankful that we have'nt started the flag lowering ceremony in Kabul

 

[Joe Shearer]

By now you should have understood that I dont have much time for your kind, its not just you. If you read my comments, and you dont like what you see, best to avoid me, if you dont have stomach to carry on the debate.

No, I have not understood anything of the kind, for the simple reason that I do not follow you or your posts; it is not worth the trouble. As far as carrying on the debate is concerned, I have carried on the debate earlier, not once but many times, and the point of saying that was to say that many of the things that seem to confuse you have been dealt with in ample measure in those earlier interjections. If you insist on starting with a tabula rasa, that's up to you.

I may have joined this forum recently, but over the years, I have seen off many Indian enthusiast on other forums, who jump on any opportunity to claim IVC as theirs.

And we are supposed to pay the price for that?

I am not disputing the Ganges was influenced by IVC. So was Babylon and Egypt.

There are records of trade links with the island of Bahrain; your claims of 'influence' over Babylon and Egypt, with only your simple assertion to back it, remain a romantic fiction loosely based on proto-history, not even on history.

People fail to realise that IVC is the world oldest civilization/empire. Babylon and Egypt was inhibited by the tribes of Indus, Ibraheem (Brahma as you call) was born here in ancient Pakistan, somewhere near Jamrood in north west Pakistan. His progeny, the bani Israel has come back to these lands, what we now call Pakhtoons. the Ancient hebrews were a tribe of Indus, Noah (Manu as you called) was also the man send to us, the reason why you see all IVC cities buried 10 feet under ground, a typical tsunami after effect. Adam himself, when ejected from Heaven was descended to these lands. How far in history you want to go?

The only people you are fit to debate this with are the primitives of the Sangh Parivar, who can match you legend for legend. The roots of the word Brahma, with its Indo-Aryan etymology and derivation, have nothing to do with the roots of the word Abraham, with its Semitic etymology and derivation. For someone so firmly gripped by fantasy, there is not much point in even pulling out the evidence and displaying it in pitiless detail; it will not change the death-grip that ethnic romance has on your imagination. But just to keep the record straight,

1. Abraham's origins near Jamrood are questionable. There is nothing but old wives' tales to back this.
2. There are genetic connections and links between some parts of Pakhtun DNA and that of some residents of contemporary Israel, but keeping in mind that the Ashkenazi and the Sephardim are themselves genetically widely apart, these connections are not a good foundation for saying that the Pakhtuns are descendants of Abraham. That belongs to Pakhtun fairy tale.
3. Considering that the ancient Hebrews originated from near the Mediterranean sea-coast, it is difficult to understand what connection with the IVC they might have had.
4. IVC cities buried under ground have to do with natural phenomena. Troy was also buried under ground, as was ancient Pataliputra, and there is no question of a tsunami having created those situations. It was merely the collection of centuries of detritus. None of the covering material is of marine origin.
5. Adam is not history, Eve is. If you bother to ask around, and I know that you won't, because it's all a settled matter for you, all of mankind in its present genetic configuration was descended from less than two hundred families from east Africa.

When you are talking about Pakistan, this land, the people, understand that this combo of people and land make the cradle of civilization, from whom came the rest, including you lot and your Ganges civilization.

Considering that there was no continuity between the IVC and the subsequent civilisation of the geography that it covered, that is a risible claim. The links of material culture include pottery, and that is the only link that establishes some transference of culture; there are also indications that a strong theogony already existed on the sub-continent, and the newly introduced Indo-Aryan theogony was merged with this over the centuries, leading to the wide divergence between the ancient faith-systems of the other parts of the Indo-European dispersion and the Indian one. That theogony is hinted at in certain artifacts found in the IVC, but there is no proof other than a suggestive iconography.

I note your views and your utterly fantastic depiction of the nature and connection of the IVC with some wonderment; I have come across peculiarities before, but this one is an outlier.

 

[Jacob Martin]

??

What is this great Pakistani empire/civilization?

The only people you are fit to debate this with are the primitives of the Sangh Parivar, who can match you legend for legend.

Spot on. Tin-foil hatters should have their own annual conclave.

 

[Khanate]

1. Adam is not history, Eve is. If you bother to ask around, and I know that you won't, because it's all a settled matter for you, all of mankind in its present genetic configuration was descended from less than two hundred families from east Africa.

The statement is patently false from beginning to end.

First, you are referring to "Out of Africa" theory or recent single-origin "hypothesis" (RSOH). There are other hypothesis like the multiregional hypothesis (MRH). Both RSOH and MRH agree that homo erectus originated in Africa and expanded to other parts of the world about one million years ago, but they differ in explaining the origin of homo sapiens sapiens, i.e., modern humans. RSOH proposes that a second wave of migration out of Africa happened about 100,000 years ago, in which modern humans of African origin conquered the world by completely replacing archaic human populations such as Neanderthals and Denisovan (Homo sapiens; Model A). MRH states that independent multiple origins (Model D) or shared multiregional evolution (MRE) with continuous gene flow between continental populations (Model C) occurred in the million years since homo erectus came out of Africa. Another version of the RSOH retains the African origin of most human populations but allows for the possibility of minor local contributions (Model B). And a new paper that was published this year supports the idea that our own South Asian gene pool has some Denisovan contribution.

Read: The Combined Landscape of Denisovan and Neanderthal Ancestry in Present-Day Humans

Second, the "two hundred families" claim comes from the Toba catastrophe theory, a super eruption that supposedly wiped out humanoids in other parts of the world but this claim is also questioned by new data.

• Toba super-volcano catastrophe idea 'dismissed'
• Supervolcano Not to Blame for Humanity's Near-Extinction

In short, our genetic "configuration", whatever that means to you, didn't descend from "two hundred families" in East Africa, it is more diverse and complex than that.

Read: Archaic human admixture with modern humans

Considering that there was no continuity between the IVC and the subsequent civilisation of the geography that it covered, that is a risible claim. The links of material culture include pottery, and that is the only link that establishes some transference of culture; there are also indications that a strong theogony already existed on the sub-continent, and the newly introduced Indo-Aryan theogony was merged with this over the centuries, leading to the wide divergence between the ancient faith-systems of the other parts of the Indo-European dispersion and the Indian one. That theogony is hinted at in certain artifacts found in the IVC, but there is no proof other than a suggestive iconography.

IVC is mostly in Pakistan and can be traced back to Mehrgarh. It is reasonable to claim that it was this land that gave birth to IVC.

 

[Joe Shearer]

The statement is patently false from beginning to end.

First, you are referring to "Out of Africa" theory or recent single-origin "hypothesis" (RSOH). There are other hypothesis like the multiregional hypothesis (MRH). Both RSOH and MRH agree that homo erectus originated in Africa and expanded to other parts of the world about one million years ago, but they differ in explaining the origin of homo sapiens sapiens, i.e., modern humans. RSOH proposes that a second wave of migration out of Africa happened about 100,000 years ago, in which modern humans of African origin conquered the world by completely replacing archaic human populations such as Neanderthals and Denisovan (Homo sapiens; Model A). MRH states that independent multiple origins (Model D) or shared multiregional evolution (MRE) with continuous gene flow between continental populations (Model C) occurred in the million years since homo erectus came out of Africa. Another version of the RSOH retains the African origin of most human populations but allows for the possibility of minor local contributions (Model B). And a new paper that was published this year supports the idea that our own South Asian gene pool has some Denisovan contribution.

Read: The Combined Landscape of Denisovan and Neanderthal Ancestry in Present-Day Humans

Second, the "two hundred families" claim comes from the Toba catastrophe theory, a super eruption that supposedly wiped out humanoids in other parts of the world but this claim is also questioned by new data.

• Toba super-volcano catastrophe idea 'dismissed'
• Supervolcano Not to Blame for Humanity's Near-Extinction

In short, our genetic "configuration", whatever that means to you, didn't descend from "two hundred families" in East Africa, it is more diverse and complex than that.

Read: Archaic human admixture with modern humans

I shall leave this for a later day when I return to base, with your permission.

IVC is mostly in Pakistan and can be traced back to Mehrgarh. It is reasonable to claim that it was this land that gave birth to IVC.

Certainly, it is reasonable. But that has nothing to do with what I posted. Do please give that a second look.

 

[Zibago]

if they don't accept Durand Line then let's move the border to Kabul

Wakhan can be negotiated

@spinghar renacido:

View attachment 356250

Haha *laughs in Urdu*

 

[Taimoor Khan]

What is this great Pakistani empire/civilization?

Are you having comprehension problem?

 

[Taimoor Khan]

No, I have not understood anything of the kind, for the simple reason that I do not follow you or your posts; it is not worth the trouble. As far as carrying on the debate is concerned, I have carried on the debate earlier, not once but many times, and the point of saying that was to say that many of the things that seem to confuse you have been dealt with in ample measure in those earlier interjections. If you insist on starting with a tabula rasa, that's up to you.

Not once I have bothered replying to your rubbish here on this forum, not worth my time, but its you who always poke your head out from your hole, when I post something.

Yea, go on, let me see what you got.

There are records of trade links with the island of Bahrain; your claims of 'influence' over Babylon and Egypt, with only your simple assertion to back it, remain a romantic fiction loosely based on proto-history, not even on history.

There are archaeological findings in Babylon, which by the way precede Egypt in timeline, where the Ambassador from Indus is shown given high status and honor by the Babylonians. If you understand the evolution of civilizations, there are only three which are recognized, Indus. Babylon and Egypt. And out of these three, the Indus sits on top time wise and in grandeur, so much so, that at the peak, Indus was three times bigger and powerful then both Babylon and Egypt combined. Only a fool would believe otherwise that the other two would just pop up on their own without Indus influence which is in nutshell the grand daddy of both. The oldest human settlement/town is in Mehrgrah Baluchistan, an Indus town.

The only people you are fit to debate this with are the primitives of the Sangh Parivar, who can match you legend for legend. The roots of the word Brahma, with its Indo-Aryan etymology and derivation, have nothing to do with the roots of the word Abraham, with its Semitic etymology and derivation. For someone so firmly gripped by fantasy, there is not much point in even pulling out the evidence and displaying it in pitiless detail; it will not change the death-grip that ethnic romance has on your imagination. But just to keep the record straight,

1. Abraham's origins near Jamrood are questionable. There is nothing but old wives' tales to back this.
2. There are genetic connections and links between some parts of Pakhtun DNA and that of some residents of contemporary Israel, but keeping in mind that the Ashkenazi and the Sephardim are themselves genetically widely apart, these connections are not a good foundation for saying that the Pakhtuns are descendants of Abraham. That belongs to Pakhtun fairy tale.
3. Considering that the ancient Hebrews originated from near the Mediterranean sea-coast, it is difficult to understand what connection with the IVC they might have had.
4. IVC cities buried under ground have to do with natural phenomena. Troy was also buried under ground, as was ancient Pataliputra, and there is no question of a tsunami having created those situations. It was merely the collection of centuries of detritus. None of the covering material is of marine origin.
5. Adam is not history, Eve is. If you bother to ask around, and I know that you won't, because it's all a settled matter for you, all of mankind in its present genetic configuration was descended from less than two hundred families from east Africa.

The hindu terrorists lot are wannabies, who wants to ride on the glory of Indus inhabitants to massage their false egos, to justify their borrowed history. Brahma and Sarasvati , and Abraham and Sarah of western terminology , mind enlighten us about someone I mentioned in my earlier reply, the person named "Manu" in Hinduism? Much similar to Nuh of Quran or as they say Noah in western civilization? Same story of floods and how humanity came from him. Maybe dismissed by idiots as fables and stories, but for the same narration about a man with more or less same events associated to him, coming from different parts of the world, those with logic and understanding will take a notice nod in affirmative.
Now coming to your assumptions

1) Ibraheem was born in the time of Namrood (Nimrod), the tyrant which came just after the Noah, a king who raised an army just to fight with the God of Noah for destroying his ancestors and their empire in flood. There is a valley near Jamrood which to this day is blackened from the fire he lit to put Ibraheem into. There are archaeologist who firmly believe that Arc of Noah is resting somewhere in Suleiman Range in Baluchistan or further north in Pakistan where Himalayas and Karakorum ranges are. Connect the dots and you may have your light-bulb moment, but if your are suffering from chronic shortage of power supply, and that bulb is constantly flickering, I cant help you.

2) Question you need to ask yourself, when you talk about "genetics", which "genes" you are comparing? The so called contemporary Israelites, which i believe in your understanding are present day Jews in the state called Israel and diaspora, majority of them are Khazars, who got nothing to do with the Children of Jacob (Isreal) , who are basically converted Jews, so where this gene comparision comes from? You are talking about comparing apples and oranges here. Keep the genetic non sense aside, then we can talk in detail if you like to be educated further. It will require few pages of discussion mind you. Rest assured, if there any trace of Bani Isreal left today, it can only be found among the tribes of Pakhtoons.

3. Ancient Hebrews were actually the Wanderers from the east, east of the holy lands and if you have taken your geography lessons, the Mediterranean is in the north west direction. Aristotle mentioned that Ancient of Hebrews were a tribe of Indus, dislodge from their lands during the great deluge of Noah. Read this with what I wrote above, it will all start to make sense, Insha Allah as we say. Finally, this is what Quran said about ancient hebrews :

O descendants of those We carried [in the ship] with Noah. Indeed, he was a grateful servant (17:3)


4- Majority of IVC, infact all major cities were/are buried 10 feet underground. We are not talking about one cities here, we are talking about whole empire/civilization. This, by all means, is a classic example of the aftermath of massive flood/tsunami. Just observe how Japanese eastern coastline was battered after being hit by a tsunami few years ago, which was nothing in comparison to what happened with the nation of Noah.

5- If you believe in the Derwin theory of evolution, then ofcourse this will all make sense to you. From a random tadpole in a pond who jumped out of it and then went on to become a monkey, and from those monkey/negroid features , the present day humans came along, well, tough luck for those inhabitants of Africa who still haven't been able to "evolve". Na, I am happy and content with my ancestry to Adam and eve, you can however, trace back your forefathers in some pond in Africa.

Considering that there was no continuity between the IVC and the subsequent civilisation of the geography that it covered, that is a risible claim. The links of material culture include pottery, and that is the only link that establishes some transference of culture; there are also indications that a strong theogony already existed on the sub-continent, and the newly introduced Indo-Aryan theogony was merged with this over the centuries, leading to the wide divergence between the ancient faith-systems of the other parts of the Indo-European dispersion and the Indian one. That theogony is hinted at in certain artifacts found in the IVC, but there is no proof other than a suggestive iconography.

I note your views and your utterly fantastic depiction of the nature and connection of the IVC with some wonderment; I have come across peculiarities before, but this one is an outlier.

The land mass which IVC covered, starting for present day Pakistan, which was its heartland, from where it all begin, expanding to whole of today's western India, whole of today Iran, whole of todays Afghanistan and some parts of southern Turkmenistan. This is all based on archaeological findings, excavations of actual Indus cities and settlements, garrisons, trade centers, and what not. Not some random pottery for heaven sake. You are talking about literally touching the boundaries of contemporary Babylon. There is something called timeline, and on that, Indus sits on top. And just like I can only be from my father because in time line he is there before me, the two others cannot come on their own, without the influence of Indus. There is a clear shift of civilization, seat of power, going from east to west, from Indus, to Babylon and eventually to Egypt.