Kabul denied route for India trade

[Cheetah786]

The CARs will have to appreciate Afghanistan's tenuous relationship with Pakistan and understand the immense difficulty transiting such goods south to Pakistan might play in such.

As to the reverse, it'll be difficult for Afghans to assure that goods traveling north to CAR aren't used as cover to resupply taliban operations within Afghanistan.

Until the Pakistani government ceases it's acts of war against the Afghan people, I doubt that there'll be substantive changes to this contentious trade relationship.

All will benefit by opening trade routes and putting down the guns. Pakistan will need to understand that requires an immense display of diplomatic acumen as a stark change-of-direction from harboring proxy armies.

I don't know that it's possible for you to do so. It means accepting the status quo in Afghanistan and then working to change matters through persuasion and demonstratable good-will and not via targeted bombings and attacks upon school-girls.

Try it for a notably refreshing change of pace.

Oh so its pakistanies bombing Afghans ?last i checked fighter jets droping bombs on afghans have this flag

 

[dbc]

So there you go Americans and Indians talking all that crap about how or what if Afghanistan denying Pakistan a trade route to CARs....

A1Kaid some numbers for you to crunch..

Pakistan's exports to Kazakhstan the largest and most prosperous of the CAR states is a miniscule 10m$ per year. In contrast India's export to Kazakhstan is about 300m$. Indian exports reach Kazakhstan via Iran and China. Iran's bilateral trade with India was a whopping 13 billion$ in 2007. China's bilateral trade with Kazakhstan is 14 billion$, in favor of Kazakhstan since China imports oil and gas from Kazakhstan. Seems to me the other nations in your neck of the woods are happy to do business with each other leaving aside border disputes and historic baggage - while Pakistan is forever mired in petulance.

Pakistan is blessed with over 2 billion consumers at its door step - time to capitalize on your good fortune or continue to stumble from one crisis to another.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

A1Kaid some numbers for you to crunch..

Pakistan's exports to Kazakhstan the largest and most prosperous of the CAR states is a miniscule 10m$ per year. In contrast India's export to Kazakhstan is about 300m$. Indian exports reach Kazakhstan via Iran and China. Iran's bilateral trade with India was a whopping 13 billion$ in 2007. China's bilateral trade with Kazakhstan is 14 billion$, in favor of Kazakhstan since China imports oil and gas from Kazakhstan. Seems to me the other nations in your neck of the woods are happy to do business with each other leaving aside border disputes and historic baggage - while Pakistan is forever mired in petulance.

Pakistan is blessed with over 2 billion consumers at its door step - time to capitalize on your good fortune or continue to stumble from one crisis to another.

Thats a rather presumptuous post on your part suggesting that Pakistan is not interested in doing business out of 'petulance'.

Which nation bar India is Pakistan restricting trade with?

And trade restrictions with India are not Pakistan's fault alone, the Indians too have several layers of protective tariffs and subsidies that make free trade extremely hard to accomplish due to Pakistani products being rendered uncompetitive, and have balked at the idea of allowing free flowing cross LoC trade for example, where Pakistan has been in favor.

This is a rather poor post from someone who usually is quite rational - bordering on rant quite frankly.

 

[S-2]

"Oh so its pakistanies bombing Afghans ?last i checked fighter jets droping bombs on afghans have this flag"

Actually, last I checked from the U.N. about 60% of afghans died at the hands of the taliban. Many intentionally. Some as human shields.

All directed by Omar and his boyz on your lands down in Quetta. That's your flag killing Afghans with your proxies...

...and they don't even need JETS to do so.

Wave it proud whenever the taliban blow up another wedding party with an IED. You've advanced your cause, correct?

Meanwhile, do you really think your own air force and army are immune to such. If so, have a chat with the folks in Loe Sam or a few other select areas.

It isn't all rosy.

 

[Developereo]

Thanks for the article.

Sincerely.

Some thoughts of mine on your civilian government from elsewhere here-

"I actually feel badly for your civilian government. I sense they would like to do all the correct thingys...

...sorta, but battle about thirty years plus of a Zia promulgated islamo-fascist hangover that continues to infect your intelligence services, armed forces, and public which makes for a hard row to hoe."

The Chinese have a saying: He who strikes the first blow admits he's lost the argument.

By launching into invective you are demonstrating that point.

First, our civilian governments are our own business. Many of the people involved have a history of corruption and we reserve the right to pass judgement after we see how they perform in this instance.

Second, our army and ISI have the full support of our countrymen and, on the whole, have done their job admirably well. We have differences in a few instances, but we will work those out ourselves.

Finally, don't you ever, EVER, dare to stereotype our people. We have our share of crazies and, once again, we will deal with them. Meanwhile, the ugly, arrogant American is a laughingstock around the world. Canadians make it a point to display their flag on their backpack and luggage and apologetically explain, at the first opportunity, that they are not American. Now, I have lived States-side for several years and I know that, in reality, most Americans are decent folks. It is arrogant schmucks like you who give your country a bad name.

Now let's try to stick to the topic at hand...

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

"people like me..."? That "one line", as you put it, is a direct response from a serving officer of your army to a direct question.

It's plain enough and begs no further elaboration. Further, it's hardly a fairytale and the net bloody results are daily evident in Afghanistan.

Xeric's comments imply nothing like what you suggest - you took one line out of the entire post and distorted the context to fit your flawed narrative of Pakistani motives in Afghanistan.

A clear example of people in the West, Americans especially, being incapable of moving beyond a caricature of Pakistan's motives and interests in the region. You remain tied to a narrow militaristic view of Pakistan's policy of 'strategic depth', when the history detailing the thoughts of the military and political leadership in the run-up to Pakistan's support for the Taliban indicates the three goals mentioned by an Indian poster above:

Stability in Afghanistan

Facilitation of trade with the CAR's and unlocking their vast natural resources.

Denying the Indians ability to prop up Afghan proxies against Pakistan, and prevent an Afghan regime similar to those in the past that refused to recognize Pakistan, facilitated seperatis movements in Pakistan's territory and carried out terrorism on Pakistani soil.

"people like me" understand that people like you have contenanced making war on Afghanistan as though it's your private fiefdom. It isn't.

It's a sovereign nation upon which your proxies make war. No fairy tale there. Enough of your own casually acknowledge such but you, no doubt, will attempt to refute such with me.

Whatever.

As Cheetah pointed out, war was made on Afghanistan by your nation, the USA, first in 2001, not Pakistan.

No qualms about 'waging war on a sovereign nation' then were there? But then hypocrisy and double standards are easily one of the US's best exports.

'Whatever' indeed.

Go talk to Xeric if you've a problem. His words. Not mine.

More than likely he's not the only serving officer who thinks in such terms.

I don't have to - I read his entire post, instead of cherry picking one sentence.

Unfortunately, there is an entire stream of fools pretending to be experts and think tanks that cling to caricaturing Pakistan's motives and interests in the region, primarily I imagine because American foreign policy, and its apologists, continue to be driven by that old American ideal - money and self interest.

The Indians offer billions in trade and deals, and if that means looking the other way (the US) while India sponsors terrorism in Pakistan and demonizing Pakistan, then so be it.

 

[Developereo]

Uh huh. Chump-change if underwritten by others and one-sixth of their more distant neighbor in any case.

Every country contributes according to its abilities. India is a much larger country with a bgger economy so, of course, it can afford to spend more. By the same logic, the US has outspent India and Pakistan combined many times over in Afghanistan.

But I agree that Pakistan should forge relationships with democractic candidates in Afghanistan to counter the Indian puppets.

 

[Developereo]

If this wild idea of Afghanistan denying Pakistan a trade route to CARs materializes and happens, then there is always the realistic possibility of building a highway via Pakistan-China-CARs.

I have never understood why we don't do more cooperation with China up there.

It would also bring more development to the Xinjiang province and improve the economic situation of the Uighur muslims.

 

[dbc]

Thats a rather presumptuous post on your part suggesting that Pakistan is not interested in doing business out of 'petulance'.

Which nation bar India is Pakistan restricting trade with?

And trade restrictions with India are not Pakistan's fault alone, the Indians too have several layers of protective tariffs and subsidies that make free trade extremely hard to accomplish due to Pakistani products being rendered uncompetitive, and have balked at the idea of allowing free flowing cross LoC trade for example, where Pakistan has been in favor.

This is a rather poor post from someone who usually is quite rational - bordering on rant quite frankly.

Rant - really AM? Then why hinder Afghan - India trade when it clearly benefits Pakistan as well? Why did Pakistan not reciprocate when India granted Pakistan Most Favored Nation (MFN) status in 1995?
Look at what has been written so far by Pakistani members; they'd rather take the scenic route through mountain country making Pakistani exports more expensive and less competitive.

 

[S-2]

"First, our civilian governments are our own business."

So's Afghanistan's. Leave them alone if you can't be good neighbors and quit sponsoring proxy war from your land.

"Finally, don't you ever, EVER, dare to stereotype our people."

I'm REAL comfortable with my assessment of the net effect Zia had on your military, ISI, and public. I won't be changing it soon given the pre-dispositions I see here.

"Meanwhile, the ugly, arrogant American is a laughingstock around the world."

As opposed to, say...Pakistan?

I can handle the laughs. All depends on who's doing the laughing and about what.

You seem somewhat unrestrained in your own stereotypical delights. No surprise there.

 

[Developereo]

"people like me" understand that people like you have contenanced making war on Afghanistan as though it's your private fiefdom. It isn't.

It's a sovereign nation

This coming from an American.

 

[S-2]

"Xeric's comments imply nothing like what you suggest..."

Yes it does. He admits they reside on your lands. What could be more plain?

How can this be?

Despite your best efforts or because of them? It's all in the intent, wouldn't you agree?

There they are. Did you allow such or did they defeat your forces to enter Pakistan?

One or the other. Just that plain and simple.

Do you think they'll ever be removed, A.M.?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Rant - really AM? Then why hinder Afghan - India trade when it clearly benefits Pakistan as well? Why did Pakistan not reciprocate when India granted Pakistan Most Favored Nation (MFN) status in 1995?
Look at what has been written so far by Pakistani members; they'd rather take the scenic route through mountain country making Pakistani exports more expensive and less competitive.

Why allow a hostile nation transit rights through our territory for their benefit (and the loss of our businesses, given how historically Afghan transit trade results in goods being smuggled back into Pakistan avoiding taxes and duties), when that nation has so far itself dragged its feet in cross LoC trade?

Afghanistan should not presume to dictate Pakistan's foreign policy, in this hypothetical situation being discussed here, Afghanistan is the spoiler and 'petulant party', given that Afghanistan would choose to deny Pakistan (and therefore itself) the advantages of trade with the CAR's, merely because of an insistence that Pakistan allow it to trade through Pakistani territory with ONE nation that is hostile to Pakistan.

The pragmatic and non-petulant thing to do would be to agree to transit trade without India being granted automatic rights to ship through Pakistan, and conducting that trade through Iran, while also allowing Pakistan to trade with the CAR's.

 

[S-2]

"This coming from an American."

Certainly few Pakistanis can address the topic of sovereignty with skill.

Is that not your former lands where the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan now reside? Did you not recently undertake army operations to reclaim sovereignty of SWAT and Buner?

How about Bajaur last fall and continuing still?

Are those not foreigners residing around Quetta who make war from your soil?

Don't fear the source, stud. If the shoe fits, wear it.

Fits Pakistan admirably until such time as you reconquer Buner, SWAT, Bajaur, the Islamic Emirate of Waziristan while expelling the Quetta Shura, Hekmatyar, OBL, Zawahiri, Haqqani, et al.

Can you do so and save your own sovereignty while leaving Afghanistan free of your proxied dogs of war?

Because until then PREDATOR shall fly to protect ourselves from the evil you launch on Afghanistan.

Thanks.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Yes it does. He admits they reside on your lands. What could be more plain?

How can this be?

Xeric knows all eh?

And the Taliban also reside on land under US control from where they have waged war on Pakistan, as have the Baluch rebles, as have the drug runners and mafias selling drugs and sponsoring the Taliban.

How can this be oh nation of finger pointers who believe their shite smells sweet as a rose, so enamored are they with the fallacy they feed themselves of being such an 'altruistic nation' that can never, ever be at fault or have failed.

Its always someone elses fault!

Despite your best efforts or because of them? It's all in the intent, wouldn't you agree?

How are your best efforts going in Afghanistan? Or is it because of them?

It is fact that the US invasion sparked the Taliuban insurgency in Pakistan Pashtun Tribal belt, so on our side atleast the events have largely been 'because of US efforts'.

There they are. Did you allow such or did they defeat your forces to enter Pakistan?

Since they were in Afghanistan first, one would have to say they defeated your forces and/or made fools out of them to escape to wherever they are.

And the leadership of Omar and Haqqani (or for that matter Mullah FM) is nothing - they are useful only in case of a Taliban return to power (politically or militarily). The insurgency itself is largely run by local commanders on the ground. But since recognizing that would involve accepting US fault and failure, which is so hard for the 'great ones enamored with their own shite', the finger pointing at Pakistan continues.

Do you think they'll ever be removed, A.M.?

I don't care - they leadership aren't bugging us are they, nor are they leading bands into Afghanistan to wage war. You, the US, is the invader. Your presence is the catalyst for the insurgency, your occupation of Afghanistan, your decision to wage war on a sovereign nation.