K8 Karakoram

[Sharjeel]

General
Two Seat Advanced jet trainer and light Ground Attack Aircraft
Manufacturer : PAC/NAMC, China & Pakistan
Service in PAF : 1995 to date
Technical Data
Length / Span : 34.0 / 31.0 Feet
Engine / Thurst :Garrett TFE731-2A turbofan engine / 3,600 Lbs
Max T/off Wt : 9,546 Lbs

Weapons
2,080 lb. (945 kg) equivalent. One 23mm cannon under centre-fuselage, with self-computing optical gunsight in cockpit. 4 hardpoints - two external stores points under each wing - capable of carrying gun pods, rocket pods, bombs, missiles, auxiliary fuel tanks (inboard pair only), or a reconnaissance pod.

Performance
Max Speed : 497 MPH
Service Ceiling : 43,600 Feet
Range : 1214 miles
Crew : Two in tandem

this thing can carry side winders!
http://www.pafmuseum.com.pk/contents/airk8.htm

<div class='bbimg'></div>


with some modifications this can be turned into a LETHAL airsupport.

heres my list of upgrades.

1) more power full engine

2) redesigned wing which is stronger has more hardpoints and stealthier (lower RCS)

3) rip some JF17 technologies and put them into this for example DSI etc..

4) upgraded avionics with a datalink and a battlefield situation display. also a radar with ability to lock onto ground targets and some optics which can track ground targets in all weather/day and night. some basic targeting software...which makes it easier to lock on (like the systems on the APACHE helicopter "Where theres will, theres way")

5) the ability to carry a indegenous hellfire like missile. (hence make the missile [air launched version of bakhtar shikan?])

6) a 30mm cannon instead of the 23mm and more bullets

7) stealthy features like reduced RCS and heat signiture, laser, radar warning recievers, infrared difuser thingi, auto chaff/flare dispensers with a large ammount of chaff and flares,

8) Front seat pilot rear seat weopens officer.

9) army version of the C4I PAF has and then integrate them both...so the commad know where every tank, every motorcycle, every man is..and also where the enemy is..) (this would lead the way to batlefield HMD and other great stuff in the future)

and then make about 100 of them at about &#036;15 million a piece they should cost &#036;1.5 billion

(we can make most of this stuff at home in the kitchen (AWC)..only thing we will need to import is the engine and may be the radar.)

 

[Best of the Best]

Yahya its a pretty childish thing to say that we can upgarde it and use it in ground support its main job is to train pilots you just cant upgrade any plain and use it as a fighter jet we have dedicated ground support miargesV&#39;s with ROSE I/II upgrade for ground support purposes and thats it.....

 

[EagleEyes]

Wouldn&#39;t be a good idea if we make one low cost light fighter for interceptor purposes, but it has to be advanced with better radar and avionics. It doesn&#39;t have to be all big, it can be similar to K-8, with more A-to-A missiles, and it doesn&#39;t have to have an ability to take on ground forces, it can just act as an interceptor in air firing A-to-A missiles.

It must be cheap so they can be acquired in more numbers. If A-to-A platform wont work then one can make A-to-G platform than can help ally ground forces in the battles, but as best mentioned that we dont need an A-to-G platform because we already have Mirages for it.

But i think it would be a good strategy to have cheap aircrafts for ground support purposes and they must be in good numbers. What do you guys have to say? Is it just a simple dream or its strategy will work certainly.

 

[Sharjeel]

Originally posted by Best of the Best@Nov 25 2005, 04:17 PM
Yahya its a pretty childish thing to say that we can upgarde it and use it in ground support its main job is to train pilots you just cant upgrade any plain and use it as a fighter jet we have dedicated ground support miargesV&#39;s with ROSE I/II upgrade for ground support purposes and thats it.....

[post=3677]Quoted post[/post]​

the first part of my post is what the K8 already has.

in war time PAFs k8s become Light attack aircraft.

Weapons
2,080 lb. (945 kg) equivalent. One 23mm cannon under centre-fuselage, with self-computing optical gunsight in cockpit. 4 hardpoints - two external stores points under each wing - capable of carrying gun pods, rocket pods, bombs, missiles, auxiliary fuel tanks (inboard pair only), or a reconnaissance pod.

thus it is already equiped for supporting ground troops in war time.

what i propose is to make a dedicated model (men and aircraft specificaly trained for the task) for air support with slight improvements and keep it permenantly ready for supporting the ground troops . leaving the more capable aircraft to conduct missions which need more capable aircraft for example taking out a runway, rail line, supply column, naval fleet, etc deep inside enemy terratory.

such a plane would greatly enhance PAs ability to thrust into the enemys heartland fighting a offensive war thus forcing the enemy into submision on its own ground rather then suffering all the destruction of war on our ground by defending our lines "best way to defend a objective is to attack and take the war to the enemys heart".

it would also have a great export potention for 3rd world countrys fighting rebels and it would greatly improve the prospects of selling these aircraft considering one of the worlds most profesional, experienced and battle ready and battle proven airforces and army would have an input on the design. thus greatly improving the prospects for the pakistani weopens industry.

 

[sigatoka]

I have to disagree with web-master, more cheap low tech interceptors are the last thing the Pak. airforce needs considering that this role is being fully served with the F-7. Those training planes could indeed be upgraded to serve as second line shallow ground interdiction of ground forces close to the Pakistani front line. Pakistani helicopters have never demonstrated the ability to support Pak. troops with close ground support and maybe these training planes could help.

I really dont see why another light weight air defence craft would be of any use. Pakistan already has F-16 which are very light and capable interceptors. The F-7 also serves behind the F-16 and are less capable but still perform similar role. Just produce more F-7 if more lightweight interceptors are needed. This will also prevent an increase in the complexity of logistics.

Im not really a fan of those dumbass mirages. The fly too fast to really provide close air support to troops. If Pak. is serious about close air support and not just tactical nuclear delivery; it should consider the excellednt su-25. Unlike the american Warthog which will cost an arm and leg and which the Americans wont probably sell; the Su-25 is combat proven and cheap and reliable.

The Su-25 could also replace some Cobras, of which i am also not a large fan of. The have proven their vulnerability in Fallujah and Al-Anbar province.

 

[EagleEyes]

sigatoka,

I guess your right about that Pakistan doesn&#39;t need such light aircrafts. Pakistan now can actually use F-7s to act as interceptors and support ground forces, and they have proven it in the recently biggest excersice conducted by PAF, Highmark.

I have seen videos of it, they were using their machine guns very effectively and targetting the ground targets like nothing. They were almost stopped in the air when they were using their machine guns. LMAO. I believe Pakistan has around 150-200 of them, and also has ability to make more at home as we have seen in the pictures of Kamra PAC.

 

[Kaiser]

Doesnt PAC make home made Mirages to?

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Kaiser@Dec 21 2005, 03:21 AM
Doesnt PAC make home made Mirages to?

[post=4645]Quoted post[/post]​

Good example of blind patriotism.

Miro

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Yahya@Nov 25 2005, 07:47 AM
this thing can carry side winders&#33;
http://www.pafmuseum.com.pk/contents/airk8.htm

<div class='bbimg'></div>
with some modifications this can be turned into a LETHAL airsupport.

heres my list of upgrades.

1) more power full engine

2) redesigned wing which is stronger has more hardpoints and stealthier (lower RCS)

3) rip some JF17 technologies and put them into this for example DSI etc..

4) upgraded avionics with a datalink and a battlefield situation display. also a radar with ability to lock onto ground targets and some optics which can track ground targets in all weather/day and night. some basic targeting software...which makes it easier to lock on (like the systems on the APACHE helicopter "Where theres will, theres way")

5) the ability to carry a indegenous hellfire like missile. (hence make the missile [air launched version of bakhtar shikan?])

6) a 30mm cannon instead of the 23mm and more bullets

7) stealthy features like reduced RCS and heat signiture, laser, radar warning recievers, infrared difuser thingi, auto chaff/flare dispensers with a large ammount of chaff and flares,

8) Front seat pilot rear seat weopens officer.

9) army version of the C4I PAF has and then integrate them both...so the commad know where every tank, every motorcycle, every man is..and also where the enemy is..) (this would lead the way to batlefield HMD and other great stuff in the future)

and then make about 100 of them at about &#036;15 million a piece they should cost &#036;1.5 billion

(we can make most of this stuff at home in the kitchen (AWC)..only thing we will need to import is the engine and may be the radar.)

[post=3637]Quoted post[/post]​

and here is another example of blind patrotism.

Yahya calling K-8 as Advance Jet Trainer and Basic Ground Attack Aircraft.

What you are trying to motivate your comrades or something???

Forget my views.

See what sinodefence.com says, not to forget it is a joint Sino-Pak project.

ROLES

Basic jet flight training, with limited air-to-ground attack capabilities.

DESIGN FEATURES

The JL-8/K-8 has low-mounted wings, lateral air intakes, and whole-piece bubble canopy. Two pilots are accommodated in a tandem, air-conditioned cockpit, with the back seat slightly higher than the front seat. The domestic JL-8 differs from the export variant K-8 in avionics configuration and power plant.

ARMAMENT

The JL-8/K-8 doesn&#39;t have a fixed weapon. Four under-wing stores stations, up to 1,000 kg, each rated at 250 kg. The stations can carry drop tanks, 23 mm cannon pods, unguided rockets, 250 kg bombs, short-range air-to-air missiles (e.g. Magic R550).

AVIONICS

EFIS-86 system, with twin-MFD, VHF/UHF radio, VHF landing/navigation, TATAN system, and air data computer.

POWERPLANT

Options include: TFE731-2A turbofan, Ukrainian AI-25TL turbofan, or a locally designed WS-11 (an AI-25TL clone, 16.87 kN thrust).

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/aircraft/trainer/jl8.asp

The powerplant, avionics and armament itself indicates that this is a basic jet trainer (not even intermediate compared to HJT-36).

and we are talking about advance jet trainer???

AJT&#39;s are BAe HAWK, MiG-AJT, Alpha-Jet etc.

Thanks,

Miro

P.S: - Sorry if I have spoiled all the dreams and joy.

 

[Zeeshan S.]

Isn&#39;t K-8 an advance trainer? If not that Miro is right, unless if your talking about creating a whole new aircraft based on it which can be used in the war time.

Also i believe the advance trainer for the future PAF will be the dual seat JF-17&#33; :emot-devil:

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by mysterious@Dec 22 2005, 10:48 AM
Isn&#39;t K-8 an advance trainer? If not that Miro is right, unless if your talking about creating a whole new aircraft based on it which can be used in the war time.

Also i believe the advance trainer for the future PAF will be the dual seat JF-17&#33; :emot-devil:

[post=4723]Quoted post[/post]​

Dual seat JF-17 will be only act as a trainer for the rookies on the jet(JF-17).

It can&#39;t be act as AJT.

Thanks,

Miro

 

[EagleEyes]

Originally posted by miroslav@Dec 22 2005, 02:29 PM
Dual seat JF-17 will be only act as a trainer for the rookies on the jet(JF-17).

It can&#39;t be act as AJT.

Thanks,

Miro

[post=4731]Quoted post[/post]​

Why not? :huh:

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by WebMaster@Dec 24 2005, 04:31 AM
Why not? :huh:

[post=4768]Quoted post[/post]​

Avionics makes a difference bhai.

In that case you don&#39;t need any specific AJT&#39;s like HAWKS,MiG-AT, Alpha JET.

Every 2 seat trainer version of fighter can act as AJT.

Miro

 

[Sharjeel]

Originally posted by miroslav@Dec 21 2005, 02:54 PM
and here is another example of blind patrotism.

Yahya calling K-8 as Advance Jet Trainer and Basic Ground Attack Aircraft.

What you are trying to motivate your comrades or something???

Forget my views.

See what sinodefence.com says, not to forget it is a joint Sino-Pak project.

ROLES

Basic jet flight training, with limited air-to-ground attack capabilities.

DESIGN FEATURES

The JL-8/K-8 has low-mounted wings, lateral air intakes, and whole-piece bubble canopy. Two pilots are accommodated in a tandem, air-conditioned cockpit, with the back seat slightly higher than the front seat. The domestic JL-8 differs from the export variant K-8 in avionics configuration and power plant.

ARMAMENT

The JL-8/K-8 doesn&#39;t have a fixed weapon. Four under-wing stores stations, up to 1,000 kg, each rated at 250 kg. The stations can carry drop tanks, 23 mm cannon pods, unguided rockets, 250 kg bombs, short-range air-to-air missiles (e.g. Magic R550).

AVIONICS

EFIS-86 system, with twin-MFD, VHF/UHF radio, VHF landing/navigation, TATAN system, and air data computer.

POWERPLANT

Options include: TFE731-2A turbofan, Ukrainian AI-25TL turbofan, or a locally designed WS-11 (an AI-25TL clone, 16.87 kN thrust).

http://www.sinodefence.com/airforce/aircraft/trainer/jl8.asp

The powerplant, avionics and armament itself indicates that this is a basic jet trainer (not even intermediate compared to HJT-36).

and we are talking about advance jet trainer???

AJT&#39;s are BAe HAWK, MiG-AJT, Alpha-Jet etc.

Thanks,

Miro

P.S: - Sorry if I have spoiled all the dreams and joy.

[post=4681]Quoted post[/post]​

miro...i know the heat in UAE is immense but try to concentrate.

that is what the official site of the PAF museum sais&#33;&#33;&#33; not me&#33;&#33;&#33;

ARMAMENT

The JL-8/K-8 doesn&#39;t have a fixed weapon. Four under-wing stores stations, up to 1,000 kg, each rated at 250 kg. The stations can carry drop tanks, 23 mm cannon pods, unguided rockets, 250 kg bombs, short-range air-to-air missiles (e.g. Magic R550).

this is what your quote of sinodefence sais mate.

these ARE basic ground support weopons. "23mm canon can disable a tanks electronics and shake it up pretty bad" sais a US tank commander a veteran of Iraq who is now stationed in germany.

PS no i never said these are AJT&#33;&#33;&#33; stop making stuff up.

 

[miroslav]

Originally posted by Yahya@Jan 12 2006, 08:23 AM
PS no i never said these are AJT&#33;&#33;&#33; stop making stuff up.

[post=5298]Quoted post[/post]​

What is this sentence means then????

Two Seat Advanced jet trainer and light  Ground Attack Aircraft

Its from the specifications which you have posted.

that is what the official site of the PAF museum sais&#33;&#33;&#33; not me&#33;&#33;&#33;

and my data is from sinodefence and globalsecurity

these ARE basic ground support weopons. "23mm canon can disable a tanks electronics and shake it up pretty bad" sais a US tank commander a veteran of Iraq who is now stationed in germany.

as far as HJT-16 is concern (Now I am not mad to compare it with K-8) It carries Four under wing pylons can carry rocket pods, 250 kg practice bombs or fuel tanks.

We aren&#39;t thinking it for Ground Attack.

Come on Yahya,

23 mm or 30 mm canon is a part of every fighter so it is obvious that the Basic or Advance Jet trainer have the gun so that the rookies can get practice on it.

in PAF&#39;s case consider your pilots lucky as HJT-16 carries 7.62 MM gun and that also in MK.II varient.

HJT-36 will bring 23mm gun.

My points were mainly against calling K-8 an AJT and using it for ground attack unless PAF has no money to induct/replace the A-5&#39;s.

and if the gun is the criteria then HAWK carries 30mm canon which is gonna induct in IAF from 2007. :thumbsup:

miro...i know the heat in UAE is immense but try to concentrate.

Prove it.

My IP doesn&#39;t prove anything.

Also let me give you some brotherly advice for the sake our relation on the various forums.

Pakistan isn&#39;t the only one who is friendly with Ukraine and UAE.

There are no permanant friends or enemies in international politics.

This is year our 26th January guest is Saudi King.

Still I have no hard feelings for your comments, I can understand the freezing cold of UK.

Miro