What's new

Judge rejects minor girl's plea to skip swim class on religious grounds

Damn..here goes Germany's olympic gold in swimming :P ; the blame lies with the parents cause I don't think a 12 year old girl born and raised in Germany would have that much problem with bare chested 12 year boys in a swimming class but it's the parents that have the problem with bare chested 12 year boys in a swimming class and if it was so then they shouldn't have put her in a co-ed school or in a school with compulsory swimming lessons or they should have stayed back in Morocco instead of asking for special favors or bending of rules for them

In germany there are plenty of mixed showers and changing areas in gyms.
In UK there arent.
So there is no such thing as a 'blanket' european culture,people can be different in the same place.

forcing a 12 year old for doing something she doesnt want to do is just wrong.
 
.
The girl's family needs to move back to Morocco... ever heard of assimilation? If it was a 16 year old it would have been different, but she's just 12!

Hmmmn...do they make that an explicit requirement on the citizenship documents (or whatever the correct term is) ? Or is this an implied thing - Doesn't matter if you carry the same ID papers & are a citizen of the same country, we were here first so either you conform or pack up & go back to where you came from ? I bet most such problems would be solved if any of this was mentioned beforehand...don't you think, ma'am ?
 
.
Hmmmn...do they make that an explicit requirement on the citizenship documents (or whatever the correct term is) ? Or is this an implied thing - Doesn't matter if you carry the same ID papers & are a citizen of the same country, we were here first so either you conform or pack up & go back to where you came from ? I bet most such problems would be solved if any of this was mentioned beforehand...don't you think, ma'am ?
She does not have to leave germany, she can leave school and be home schooled. (not sure if that is considered child abuse in germany)
Also, not knowing local law before taking citizenship(or even living there) is not something you can use in court of law as defence.
That applies to present as well as any future law. Only the law should not be applied retrospectively.

For an example, a nordic country took child on an Indian couple to care for child abuse. By desi standard the parents were doing nothing wrong. (was a big news in India)
 
.
Muslims need to learn to play smart, expose your weaknesses and others will use them against you. This girl could have used bundle of excuses to avoid swimming class. :angry:
 
.
In germany there are plenty of mixed showers and changing areas in gyms.
In UK there arent.
So there is no such thing as a 'blanket' european culture,people can be different in the same place.

forcing a 12 year old for doing something she doesnt want to do is just wrong.

I too never wanted to attend the Humanities class back in School. Pity none understood that they shouldn't force a 12 year to do what he doesn't want to do.
 
.
THe picture is non sense..
The description says 'saudi man'.
But this man is wearing an Afghan,central asian dress..
Certainly some ignorant came up with this hate propaganda without propper research.

The exact factual representation isn't the issue here, the underlying message is. If you are prepared to characterize half a billion Europeans as pedophiles and calling them sick fucks, based on a single court case involving a Muslim family that has nothing with pedophilia itself, you could expect more vicious attacks on all Muslims, yes even based on actual examples, where pedophilia is not only sanctioned by society, like the old guy and the little girl from Afghanistan or Pakistan in the picture, but even legally permissible. (Yemen, Iran).

A more revengeful person could even drag the prophet of Islam in its response regarding Aisha......

Keep it civil and don't indulge in unnecessary racist slurs. If one does not have the abilities to respond in a more intelligent and decent manner, like Razpak, the best thing to do is to remain silent.

Please don't waste time responding to pointless posts of no value.


Are you sure it's the same case?

Upon further reading it appears your skepticism is justified. I jumped too fast to conclusion, thinking it was the same, but this is indeed a different case, so I stand corrected. This incident took place in another federal state.

Crap. Now I feel like a dick for defending the parents.

I was mistaken. I could vaguely remember this particular case, it has striking similarities with the current one. A Muslim girl of the same age, pressured by her parents, not wanting to take part of mixed swimming lessons, and a ruling that is partially based on the same arguments by the court, dismissed in favor of the school.

Nevertheless I agree with the courts' ruling, based on their arguments.

The issue isn't confined to Germany alone, there appear to be cases in other European countries as well.

Here is one from Switzerland:

Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court
Published: 27 Mar 2012

A Muslim family in Basel has been fined 1,400 francs ($1,550) for refusing to let its daughters participate in mixed swimming classes.

The family had sought to avoid paying the fine on the grounds that the requirement for the girls to join the swimming lesson infringed on their religious freedom, online news website Le Matin reported.

The parents argued that, in accordance with the teachings of the Koran, they wanted to instil a sense of shame in their children before they reached puberty. Mixed swimming lessons in primary school, the family claimed, would be incompatible with such an aim.

Following the family’s appeal of the original Administrative Court verdict, the Federal Court decided to uphold the fine. The court stated that the obligation to participate in mixed swimming classes did not represent a significant assault on the family’s religious freedom.

The upper court said it agreed with the Administrative Court's view that there was a “substantial public interest that all children take swimming lessons”.

Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court - The Local
 
. .
I too never wanted to attend the Humanities class back in School. Pity none understood that they shouldn't force a 12 year to do what he doesn't want to do.

the comparison is wrong.
Taking clothes off and wearing revealing swim suit with opposite gender,can be stressful for many,and you didnt have to wear swim suit for the class you didnt want to take?
 
.
the comparison is wrong.
Taking clothes off and wearing revealing swim suit with opposite gender,can be stressful for many,and you didnt have to wear swim suit for the class you didnt want to take?
The burkini is not revealing at all. :)
You have no idea how my math class was, else you wont be comparing with your minor suimsuit thing (after first time wearing suimsuit it will all be normal)
Also, this is in germany, where gender segregation is abnormal. Not in India or pakistan.
 
.
The exact factual representation isn't the issue here, the underlying message is. If you are prepared to characterize half a billion Europeans as pedophiles and calling them sick fucks, based on a single court case involving a Muslim family that has nothing with pedophilia itself, you could expect more vicious attacks on all Muslims, yes even based on actual examples, where pedophilia is not only sanctioned by society, like the old guy and the little girl from Afghanistan or Pakistan in the picture, but even legally permissible. (Yemen, Iran).

A more revengeful person could even drag the prophet of Islam in its response regarding Aisha......

Keep it civil and don't indulge in unnecessary racist slurs. If one does not have the abilities to respond in a more intelligent and decent manner, like Razpak, the best thing to do is to remain silent.



Upon further reading it appears your skepticism is justified. I jumped too fast to conclusion, thinking it was the same, but this is indeed a different case, so I stand corrected. This incident took place in another federal state.



I was mistaken. I could vaguely remember this particular case, it has striking similarities with the current one. A Muslim girl of the same age, pressured by her parents, not wanting to take part of mixed swimming lessons, and a ruling that is partially based on the same arguments by the court, dismissed in favor of the school.

Nevertheless I agree with the courts' ruling, based on their arguments.

The issue isn't confined to Germany alone, there appear to be cases in other European countries as well.

Here is one from Switzerland:

Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court
Published: 27 Mar 2012

A Muslim family in Basel has been fined 1,400 francs ($1,550) for refusing to let its daughters participate in mixed swimming classes.

The family had sought to avoid paying the fine on the grounds that the requirement for the girls to join the swimming lesson infringed on their religious freedom, online news website Le Matin reported.

The parents argued that, in accordance with the teachings of the Koran, they wanted to instil a sense of shame in their children before they reached puberty. Mixed swimming lessons in primary school, the family claimed, would be incompatible with such an aim.

Following the family’s appeal of the original Administrative Court verdict, the Federal Court decided to uphold the fine. The court stated that the obligation to participate in mixed swimming classes did not represent a significant assault on the family’s religious freedom.

The upper court said it agreed with the Administrative Court's view that there was a “substantial public interest that all children take swimming lessons”.

Muslim girls must swim with boys: Swiss court - The Local

"substantial public interest that all children take swimming classes"???

I dont recall switzerland being an island prone to tsunamis.
How can swimming be a matter of public interest in a land locked mountain country?
 
.
a full bodied swimsuit is not a burkini dont know why its added "" both guys and girls can wear them especially if they like catching waves. plus you only need to wear a swim cap to cover your head
 
.
The burkini is not revealing at all. :)
You have no idea how my math class was, else you wont be comparing with your minor suimsuit thing (after first time wearing suimsuit it will all be normal)
Also, this is in germany, where gender segregation is abnormal. Not in India or pakistan.

No,it varies from person to person regardless of their religion ,
Some girls simply dont feel comfortable to wear short tight clothes in front of men.
Burkini wont stop her from swimming with boys wearing knickers only.
That too should be a matter of personal choice.
Its medeival to force a girl to swim with naked men when she doesnt want to,and all in the land of women rights.
 
.
I read this burkini part, but the article says she wants no boys in the mix.

Let her prove her physical ed without boys. The girl feels this way, so let her.

That will be unfair to the boys. She has a right to choose for herself - not for others.

Separate testing means they have to have a separate class. Separate teacher and so on.

What the boys do is up to them, they are not touching her, or in some sort of contact sport. They are swimming in their own line, she in hers. This is something illogical and she won't be able to win.

She already got a big win for her and others when the court said in its statement that she can wear the burkini. Trust me, there was a pseudo-secular argument to be made against that - its a religious symbol - ban it!. So its a win, nonethless, take it and end the matter.
 
.
I had a similar problem some years ago.
My son's school wanted all the class to attend a church service.
I had no problem with my son visiting a church,but i found out thar it will be a propper church servive,with all praying the christian way.
I didnt bother to go to school admin and bash them with what my religion says..
I simply took my so to school half an hour late when the class had already left for the church.

As a parent you have the right to decide for your child & I am sure you feel you did right.

I am curious to know the objection you had as parent in your child attending a religious service / ceremony of another religion.

This may please not be mis interpreted in any manner. I find it strange for two reasons. One, we too in our childhood have studied in Christian Schools where religious services were held - it in no way changed our beliefs towards our own. I also do not know of any conversions that may have happened. It did help in greater awareness and to reinforce belief in our own religion.

Two, during professional life one has interacted with people of all religions and even kept fasts during the holy month. It made no difference to my bonding with my faith. It did help me to know & see things from anothers perspective.

I encouraged my son to do the same.

One needs to have faith in your own upbringing ( called Sanskar in hindi, I cannot immediately recall a similar word in urdu). .. this is the word I found in the on line translator .تعلیموتربیت... I hope it means the correct thing.

Do tell me what this word is.
 
.
"substantial public interest that all children take swimming classes"???

I dont recall switzerland being an island prone to tsunamis.
How can swimming be a matter of public interest in a land locked mountain country?


You might wanna reconsider that.

Switzerland has a large number of lakes, large and small, which can be found in most areas of the country

List of lakes in Switzerland - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And these are just the 'big' ones. Were not even talking about the numerous ditches, pools, creeks and rivers.

And whenever a child unfortunately drowns, it often happens to be a child of asylum seekers who has never learned to swim. Yes, not only does withholding your kid from swimming lessons go against the educational order of a country, such far fetched religious ego's of the parents could also endanger the lives of children as a consequence.

On all counts, this was a good decision of the court.
 
.

Latest posts

Pakistan Defence Latest Posts

Back
Top Bottom