Jordan has finished compiling the list of terrorist organizations in Syria

[Falcon29]

They took their time announcing it. This report was published by Syrian opposition sources to begin with. They made up a lie so they have an excuse to insult us. Within minutes all these rebel Twitter accounts were insulting Jordan left and right. Makes you wonder what their intentions are..

I haven't seen that, the twitter link in the OP is a Russian guy. I don't know any rebel twitter accounts but I will try checking. If it is true, then maybe they are trying to hint to Jordan that some groups are redline. But, you can't blame, try putting yourself in their shoes. This list could decide the fate of their cause.

 

[Sharpshooter12]

Jordan is ruled by the Hamishites. That's the same clan of Muhammad and Ali. Surprised Jordan isn't a Shia country. What does the king of Jordan think of Abu Bakr who snatched the title of caliph from right under Ali?

Wow you Americans like to talk about everything with such authority even about a subject you have no clue about. You know who else is or claims to be Hashmite, Abu-Bakar Al Baghdadi, the leader of ISIS, are you surprise about why he is not a shia. The whole Hashmite clan is not Shia, in fact most of them are sunnis and love Hazrat Abu Bakar(r.a), Umar (r.a) and Usman (r.a) as much as any other sunni.

And it is not appropriate to talk about snatching caliph title e.t.c, Sunni muslims are greatly offended by that as we consider this as a fabricated story, of course Shias like to differ but this is no place for sectarian discussion.

 

[ultron]

The whole Hashmite clan is not Shia, in fact most of them are sunnis and love Hazrat Abu Bakar(r.a), Umar (r.a) and Usman (r.a) as much as any other sunni.

Nop. Ali was supposed to succeed Muhammad. No one comes close to Ali when it comes to legitimacy to the caliphate. No one is saying Abu Bakr is not revered. But he over stepped the line when he snatched the caliphate from Ali.

 

[Sharpshooter12]

Nop.

The part of my post that you quoted and said Nope to was about not all Hashmites being Shia.

So Nope in this instance will mean that you either believe that whole Hashmite clan is Shia or even if some are Sunnis they don't respect the first three caliphs of Islam. So either you'll have proof to back it up or just saying this because you are an idiot, I am not calling you an Idiot as I am sure you will have proof to back up your claim.

Ali was supposed to succeed Muhammad. No one comes close to Ali when it comes to legitimacy to the caliphate. No one is saying Abu Bakr is not revered. But he over stepped the line when he snatched the caliphate from Ali.

And how exactly you are an authority on this subject? I have told you previously that this is a sensitive subject and as much as I like to bust your bubble the forum clearly prohibits religious and sectarian discussion.

Any more such comments and I will be forced to report you to the administrators.

 

[Schutz]

The Jordanian regime is an illegitimate British regime which is holding the people of Jordan hostage. No one in Jordan shares these political sentiments that the regime does. Of course West assigned Jordan to make this list. Which in other words is West made the list but wants to pretend it's Jordan's fault once they start bombing the rebels.

Liwa Tawheed is a moderate group in Aleppo. They were put on because they are the MB representative in Syria. Clearly this list is compiled by Israel, British installed Arab regimes and the West. We the Arab people reject this list. Any declaration of war on the rebels is a declaration of war on all Arabs. The rebels should begin giving orders for their operatives in Jordan to prepare for the worst.

The endless war against Arab Sunnis has to come an end and won't be tolerated anymore. Does not matter which way foreigners frame it. They have no business what the local people choose. The war will become many times more dangerous if this conspiracy doesn't end. Unfortunately the West and corrupt Arab regimes want to destroy humanity and the earth. They need to back off and let people embrace freedom. If theres no freedom for the people of the region then the lives of foreigners will be disrupted. Nobody is forcing the West to commit aggression on Arab lands. They have no excuse for their actions. An immediate pullout of foreign forces must occur or else the whole region will destabalize.

haha, Jordan is literally one of the only countries I would want to visit in that region, one of my best friends in university was half Jordanian and a top bloke, its a fairly stable country with decent enough values (especially considering its neighbours).

 

[Sharpshooter12]

The answer to your question is: No

Jordan is a Sunni country, and United Nations gave it the authority to prepare the list. The list includes groups with ideologies such as this: LeJ claims responsibility for Parachinar bazaar bomb - The Express Tribune

And this goes beyond Syria. From Peshawar to Paris to California to London, what we are seeing is that only Takfiri ideology births such hatred and such heinous terror.

Relax I was not questioning the legitimacy of Jordanian list, just had a question about other non-state actors in the region.

Regarding those Lej freaks, these are by-products of Afghan war, they came back and are creating a mayhem in our society. They needs to removed with prejudice.

But I will be lying if I say I am not worried about the Zaynabiyuns, they will return home some day, battle-hardened, indoctrinated, and I have no illusion that they will sit quietly once they return.

Militias are dangerous, whether they are Sunnis or Shias, and both KSA and Iran should avoid creating these monsters that haunts other Muslim countries.

 

[Daneshmand]

But I will be lying if I say I am not worried about the Zaynabiyuns, they will return home some day, battle-hardened, indoctrinated, and I have no illusion that they will sit quietly once they return.

Militias are dangerous, whether they are Sunnis or Shias, and both KSA and Iran should avoid creating these monsters that haunts other Muslim countries.

Relax. No such thing will happen. The reason for that you have to search in doctrinal differences between Shia and the Takfiris such as Lej and many others. In Shia doctrine, not every Harry and Dick can rise up and declare some other one infidel and then declare Jihad and kill women and children and enslave others. Shia doctrine has a rigid hierarchical structure, in which every one has to answer to a Grand Ayatollah.

That is why there is no possibility that types who kill innocent people in markets, arise among the Shias. Whether in California or in Peshawar or in Paris, you will find that these were not Shias. Since a Shia must have approval of a Grand Ayatollah for everything, and a grand Ayatollah will never approve things such as the APS in peshawar. Grand Ayatollahs are elderly people and very learned. The "Zainabyoun" because of the Shia doctrine are just another regular military unit, taking their orders and implementing them. At the end they will retire just like any other military personnel.

Another big difference, which you are obviously oblivious of, is the fact of why Takfiris every where from Pakistan to France are doing what they are doing. Their goal is to establish an "Islamic government" as per their ideology. Shias on the other hand have never had such goals through out history since they were waiting for the return of 12th Imam, and they considered all forms of government as decadent but an evil necessity till the return of 12th Imam. Then Ayatollah Khomeini came along and he created Velayat Faghih from Shia doctrine, which means guardianship of jurists, which technically in theological terms defined a government which was kind of a "care-taker" and a "transitional" government till the 12th Imam comes back.

The Shias today have absolutely no goal to create an Islamic government, since they already never wanted it but still now they actually have it, all implemented with its bells and whistles. In fact the "opposition" the Iranian government faces unlike the opposition in other parts of Islamic world, does not come from Islamists who want to Islamize the government. In case of Iran, it comes from factions who want to make Iran less Islamic. "Zainabyoun" already have their government, unlike the Taliban or Lej or tens of thousands of such groups in the rest of Islamic world who are striving to get theirs.

Iran is safe. Do not worry about Iran.

 

[Sharpshooter12]

Another big difference, which you are obviously oblivious of, is the fact of why Takfiris every where from Pakistan to France are doing what they are doing. Their goal is to establish an "Islamic government" as per their ideology. Shias on the other hand have never had such goals through out history since they were waiting for the return of 12th Imam, and they considered all forms of government as decadent but an evil necessity till the return of 12th Imam. Then Ayatollah Khomeini came along and he created Velayat Faghih from Shia doctrine, which means guardianship of jurists, which technically in theological terms defined a government which was kind of a "care-taker" and a "transitional" government till the 12th Imam comes back.

The Shias today have absolutely no goal to create an Islamic government, since they already never wanted it but still now they actually have it, all implemented with its bells and whistles. In fact the "opposition" the Iranian government faces unlike the opposition in other parts of Islamic world, does not come from Islamists who want to Islamize the government. In case of Iran, it comes from factions who want to make Iran less Islamic. "Zainabyoun" already have their government, unlike the Taliban or Lej or tens of thousands of such groups in the rest of Islamic world who are striving to get theirs.

Thank you very much for this detailed answer, especially clearing the concept about Velayat Faghih. A lot of things make sense now when I look at them with respect to this concept. No freelancing Shia militias, I like that.

But then there is one problem, Syria is a Sunni majority state, right. Then why all these militias(Hizbullah, Fatemioun, Zaynabiyun and Shabiha) supporting the regime in power are mostly foreigner Shias (other than alawitte Shabiha). The answer I think is that they are tools that Velayat Faghih employs to further its strategic goals and currently it is to consolidate the ruling regime. Just like LEJ, SSP or their likes are tools of KSA.

Although I wish both KSA and Iran the best of luck, their safety is none of my concern but their own. But the fact that both of them are recruiting Pakistanis for fighting their proxy wars is something that concern me. When I was talking about Zaynabiyun I was not worried about Iran, I was worried about Pakistan. As per reports many of these guys are Pakistanis and they will come back one day. When I take into consideration your theory about Velayat Faghih, it will mean that their loyalties will remain with Iran because Iran is the Shia Islamic government, kind of Khilapha that Sunni groups are looking for.

Although I must say that it is quite reassuring that Shia militias won't go freelance like the Sunnis as they already have their Islamic state but that creates another concern.

So what if tomorrow Pakistan and Iran become hostile, its a far-fetched hypothetical situation, so let's stick with something more realistic, what if Pakistan decides to actively support KSA against let's say perceived Iran backed Hothis or any such militia and government. The last time such offer came, one of the biggest concern was the danger of sectarian unrest. So if Pakistan formally gets into anti-Iran block, can't Iran use its supporters, who will be well trained and battle hardened to create unrest in Pakistan?

In Sunni concept of Khilapha, once it is established then its edicts will be bound on every Sunni no matter where he is living. Is the concept of this transitional Shia government is similar or is there room to differ with edicts.

Thank you again Daneshmand for your Daneshmandana post.

 

[Daneshmand]

Thank you very much for this detailed answer, especially clearing the concept about Velayat Faghih. A lot of things make sense now when I look at them with respect to this concept. No freelancing Shia militias, I like that.

But then there is one problem, Syria is a Sunni majority state, right. Then why all these militias(Hizbullah, Fatemioun, Zaynabiyun and Shabiha) supporting the regime in power are mostly foreigner Shias (other than alawitte Shabiha). The answer I think is that they are tools that Velayat Faghih employs to further its strategic goals and currently it is to consolidate the ruling regime. Just like LEJ, SSP or their likes are tools of KSA.

Although I wish both KSA and Iran the best of luck, their safety is none of my concern but their own. But the fact that both of them are recruiting Pakistanis for fighting their proxy wars is something that concern me. When I was talking about Zaynabiyun I was not worried about Iran, I was worried about Pakistan. As per reports many of these guys are Pakistanis and they will come back one day. When I take into consideration your theory about Velayat Faghih, it will mean that their loyalties will remain with Iran because Iran is the Shia Islamic government, kind of Khilapha that Sunni groups are looking for.

Although I must say that it is quite reassuring that Shia militias won't go freelance like the Sunnis as they already have their Islamic state but that creates another concern.

So what if tomorrow Pakistan and Iran become hostile, its a far-fetched hypothetical situation, so let's stick with something more realistic, what if Pakistan decides to actively support KSA against let's say perceived Iran backed Hothis or any such militia and government. The last time such offer came, one of the biggest concern was the danger of sectarian unrest. So if Pakistan formally gets into anti-Iran block, can't Iran use its supporters, who will be well trained and battle hardened to create unrest in Pakistan?

In Sunni concept of Khilapha, once it is established then its edicts will be bound on every Sunni no matter where he is living. Is the concept of this transitional Shia government is similar or is there room to differ with edicts.

Thank you again Daneshmand for your Daneshmandana post.

You are welcome.

No such thing will happen. Iran was the first country to recognize Pakistan. The strategic reason for that, being the fact, that Iran did not want to be a direct neighbor of India. No body in his or her sane mind would want to be neighbor with a country of a billion population as it would eclipse it by a large margin unless you yourself have a billion population.

This way, Iran correctly calculates that it can benefit from its relations with India while not being eclipsed by it. All because of Pakistan. Iran's strategic calculus calls for a healthy Pakistan not a weakened one. KSA on the other hand has a different calculus which calls for eclipsing Pakistan and use it for its own ends. The KSA has two goals in mind, the leadership of Arabs and the leadership of all Sunnis. For the first goal, they must subjugate Egypt (the most populous Arab nation with a large military and a lively politics). For the second, they have to subjugate Pakistan (the only nuclear power among Muslims). And Pakistani strategists specially in its armed forces know this very well.

What Iran is doing in Syria or other places is not out of expansionist policy or goals. It is out of necessity to protect Iran from strategic goals of US oft implemented through KSA. And Iran is winning.

This scholarly talk should put things in perspective:

 

[Daneshmand]

In Sunni concept of Khilapha, once it is established then its edicts will be bound on every Sunni no matter where he is living. Is the concept of this transitional Shia government is similar or is there room to differ with edicts.

Shias do not subscribe to the idea of Caliphate. Because of ideological reasons, that you might be aware of. The concept of Velayat Faghih, is not like Caliphate. Generally, Shias can not differ on what Grand Ayatollah decides. They have to remain within that boundary. For instance, the Iraqi government was formed because the Grand Ayatollah in Iraq allowed it. Otherwise, the Shias would have to sit outside the government. As they had for a thousand years before that. This is a new concept among the Shias, before that all forms of government were seen as illegitimate, equally.

 

[Steve781]

Ahrar wants to establish an Islamic state, not an Islamic republic. That makes them extremists.




Jordan is ruled by the Hamishites. That's the same clan of Muhammad and Ali. Surprised Jordan isn't a Shia country. What does the king of Jordan think of Abu Bakr who snatched the title of caliph from right under Ali?

Some have said that the restoration of the Hashemites in Iraq could solve the Sunni Shia conflict.