Joint Indo-Pak Corps For Afghanistan

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This idea was offered by one of our members S-2 on another forum - I am reproducing it here to gage responses - let the opinions flow!

We rarely speculate in this section. There's an active war, needless to say, that's heating up considerably.

I've a thought, though (surprising, I know). I'd like everybody's accumulated objections to a joint Indo-Pak Mountain Corps of two divisions stationed in Afghanistan with a Corps H.Q. staffed jointly on synchronized rotations of one year to foster internal cohesiveness and knowledge-base.

Pakistan claims of Indian intrigue with Baluchi separatists may be allayed by having Pakistani forces within Afghanistan, particularly if they were to operate in these suspected regions adjacent to Baluchistan.

Pakstan has recently tried to turn the tables of logic by contending that it is THEY, not Afghanistan, that is under attack from within Afghanistan. Fine, then fight these "infiltrators" from Afghanistan.

Each nation has security and cultural interests in Afghanistan. Each nation faces the same enemy at home and stands to lose equally from a taliban victory in Afghanistan. Each nation could stand to foster a closer affinity to one another through the professional engagement of high-quality forces in a mutual endeavor of high visibility.

A corps of highly-trained and culturally-attuned Indians and Pakistanis, numbering 15,000-25,000 would be invaluable to Afghanistan and NATO. It would also provide a shared investment/incentive in Afghanistan's success. The consultative and coordination process would adhere and bind these forces closely. ISAF would command this coalition contribution.

I'm thinking that I'm on to something.

It won't happen. Most capable of making this occur will find ways to say "no" instead of "yes". Maybe we make the Corps one nation and one division larger adding Turkey.

Their troops will always deploy between India's and Pakistan's.

That's zero-sum thinking expressed here and it's zero-sum thinking that's anticipated by the GoP. I win-you lose. Falling back on stock assumptions won't move us forward.

Nobody should be allowed to dominate Afghanistan, except Afghanis. As both India and Pakistan fear the other's meddling, invite both in to OPENLY do the bidding of the Afghan government to establish security under command of ISAF. I think this endeavor would force a greater transparency of intent and moral rectitude onto all participating shoulders.

There are, to make this work, real operational and logistical impediments which must be overcome. Units would have to be formed and exercised to gain trust in ability and commitment. Indian infantry in contact would have to, perhaps, come to trust that Pakistani CASEVAC would fly into a hot LZ to pick up wounded. That's, obviously, a major confidence-building measure that highlights the need for joint training and exercises before deployment.

I've no doubt, though, that if the word comes down from on-high, both armies will do their level-best to cooperate effectively. The stronger the word, the more enthusiastically this mission will be embraced by the troops. It's a function of officer and NCO leadership to co-opt troops into taking ownership of missions and responsibilities.

The near, medium, and long-term benefits are what's most important. Near term stability leads to medium-term dialogue and engagement. Long-term? Who knows? Maybe issues today are rendered irrelevant by time and circumstance.

Poorly defined borders can be disputed into infinity by stable nations to everybody's benefit. But you have to be STABLE first. Stable nations will talk FOREVER about crap like borders. Meanwhile they establish joint border commissions that do the job that needs doing. After awhile the condition takes on a semblance of permanency.

Well, we know that, at times, Pakistani forces have fought and died fighting these "miscreats" (I just LOVE that wonderfully-exploited description). We obviously know the leanings, quality, and cultural impediments to any F.C. forces. I, less so for XII Corps troops around Peshawar.

But I'm looking for their best troops. Mountain-trained and skilled/adept in fundamental soldier skills and small unit operations. I'm sure that they have them- probably facing you somewhere, in fact, or as a strategic reserve. India will, naturally, not send less. Better troops. Better effects achieved in Afghanistan and, consequently, with India/Pakistan.

"not happening , simply put no politician on either side of the LOC will stake his career on a joint indo-pak operation in Afghanistan."

Until some of that changes, there'll be no improvement. The prevailing paradigm is bankrupt and proven so. Both nations have legitimate interests and the best way to approach this is recognition and facilitation. That's best accomplished by sharing the work and outcome (hopefully rewards).

Hope attitudes can change.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The joint forces (even better with the Turks ) seems an excellent way to assuage the concerns of both sides, but I am still not convinced you can get both sides interested unless you get leadership in Afghanistan that is more balanced (and I don't necessarily mean the Taliban by that). The Indians don't stand to lose anything major with the status quo continuing - the GoA continues to be strongly pro-India, and India is not hemorrhaging blood or money while denying Pakistan strategic space in Afghanistan.

Stability in Afghanistan to help trade with the CAR's is just a bogey thrown out for Western consumption IMO - how big of a market do the CAR's, even combined, offer India?

The big attraction is gas and oil, but the most feasible means of access for India lie through Pakistan, and Indian dillydallying over the IPI (which admittedly has other dynamics involved because of the US-Iran-123 agreement interplay), despite her spiraling energy requirements, makes me skeptical that India has any interest in participating in any such projects through Pakistan.

Therefore, the goal for India in Afghanistan is entirely a strategic one in terms of having a presence on Pakistan's Western front. Heck, even Salim is essentially arguing that this is what the US in fact wants covertly, to strengthen India's regional position, by dividing Pakistan's area of concerns and potential threats, and thereby creating more space for India vis a vis China, as the US and India start on the road to a new strategic partnership.

Change the status quo to where India does not enjoy the one sided advantage it does currently (in Afghanistan), and there might be incentive for both sides to cooperate to ensure that destabilization does not allow one or the other to gain the advantage again.

 

[fatman17]

highly unlikely because of the history between the two antagonists...here is an example of how carefully the heads of the repective armies tread...

...but he saw opportunities for better understanding with the indian military to reduce tensions....he was invited by the indians to visit but they made the mistake of announcing this in the parliament before the invitation had reached Pakistan and had been approved by prime minister Sharif. after indian CoAS Gen. S.P. Rodrigues insisted that he come "even for a tennis match"...Gen. Asif Nawaz sent him a light-hearted message through the Pakistan Defence Attache in New Delhi, Brig. Jamshed Gulzar "i dont play tennis but i did box at Sandhurst"!. that settled the issue....

from Crossed Swords.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Well, they would certainly tread carefully, but the point here would be that both sides would be equally involved in a sort of 'peacekeeping operation' if you will, outside of India and Pakistan, that would have as its core maintaining stability to deny the other any space for advantage.

 

[third eye]

My gut reaction to a proposal like should be " NO WAY".

If we were to keep RAW, ISI, Pak Army, Indian Politicians, Hardliners from both sides etc out of this,

AND

if we were to have Govts on both sides who had the courage to think & act differently ....well, why not ?

By the way, how would the afghans feel on this ? Should'nt we ask them too, after all its their country.

 

[Energon]

Although this idea is very good in theory, I have heavy doubts as to whether it would materialize in the desired manner.

First, I don't think the Indian troops should really be engaging in any combat roles in Afghanistan at all. It could severely and, possibly irreparably complicate the situation which will only further destabilize the region. The Indian troops should only be there to provide security to its own contracted citizens working in Afghanistan and at the most provide non combat related logistical support to any other military operating in the region.

Would the GoA even allow a large contingent of Pakistani troops to operate in Afghanistan? Besides, Pakistan has its own internal problems on the proximal side of their border, and every available resource ought to be diverted to this cause. If there are fears of large scale Indian involvement in Baluchistan, the Pak forces ought to have a heavy presence along the border to keep it in check.

If the IPKF debacle is an indicator of anything its that the Indian army isn't really designed for the kind of operations being mentioned here. It is still primarily an armed force trained to conduct conventional warfare. Its sheer size and lethality if anything is a major disadvantage in sensitive operations of this sort. The top brass and the government are in the process of re-vamping and modernizing the military to amend this problem, but IMO its going to take at least another 5-7 years for the operational capacity to change. Until a significant portion of the Indian army is trained to carry out large scale peace keeping missions in a hot zone like Afghanistan using an array of advanced technology in an intelligence oriented- network centric doctrine to minimize collateral damage, they have no business taking on active operations in Afghanistan.

 

[Kasrkin]

This 'solution' will create more problems than solutions. Frankly Afghanistan is Pakistan's backyard, not India's. So I'm guessing if the Pakistani officers are not happy with Indians messing around in Afghanistan right now; they wont be too happy if they are messing around tomorow in larger numbers, even if we are there with them. Indians just dont belong there, if they are its mainly because of Pakistan. Indians wont agree to it because they know it would be pointless and expensive for them to be there, Pakistan wont agree to it because we need troops else where(so does India come to think of it) and because it will legitimize India's over-enthusiastic, and like in this case childish, self projection.

Besides you have to be mental to place the Indian army in a place like Afghanistan. The Indians are not as welcome in Afghanistan as they would have us believe. Like someone said; they are happy with the status quo....because its not going to get any better for them. Such display of Hindu military deployment there wont be so much as throwing patrol on fire as adding nitroglycerin to burning napalm.

 

[Energon]

This 'solution' will create more problems than solutions. Frankly Afghanistan is Pakistan's backyard, not India's. So I'm guessing if the Pakistani officers are not happy with Indians messing around in Afghanistan right now; they wont be too happy if they are messing around tomorow in larger numbers, even if we are there with them. Indians just dont belong there, if they are its mainly because of Pakistan. Indians wont agree to it because they know it would be pointless and expensive for them to be there, Pakistan wont agree to it because we need troops else where(so does India come to think of it) and because it will legitimize India's over-enthusiastic, and like in this case childish, self projection.

Besides you have to be mental to place the Indian army in a place like Afghanistan. The Indians are not as welcome in Afghanistan as they would have us believe. Like someone said; they are happy with the status quo....because its not going to get any better for them. Such display of Hindu military deployment there wont be so much as throwing patrol on fire as adding nitroglycerin to burning napalm.

Actually Afghanistan is trying to do everything in its power to eliminate Pakistan's influence based on the outcome of the late 90s. India has since taken advantage of the situation and established a relationship with the new Afghan government much to Pakistan's displeasure. However, so far the Indian involvement in Afghanistan has been almost exclusively benevolent in nature, building roads, highways, hospitals etc. and that is exactly where and how it should remain. Expanding it to military operations would IMO be a mistake. Similarly India's involvement in Afghanistan will hopefully propel Pakistan to make its own friendly overtures via social sector investment; and that is one kind of competition I wouldn't mind seeing become a regional phenomenon.

The way I see it, if the countries of south Asia are going to use their influence for geopolitical objectives, it might as well come in the from of social and economic assistance as opposed to arms or military operations.

 

[Logic note]

Leave Afghanistan Alone

let them decide their own destiny ...
trying to influence its polity and take advantage , has led to Pakistan get in to this mess .

remember time is the best judge and punisher ...

 

[ejaz007]

Considering the love hate relationsship between the two countries not a practical thing to do. It shall create more problems than solutions.

We are talking about two countries who have not been able to solve their own problems for 60 years joining hands in a third country.

 

[fatman17]

The joint forces (even better with the Turks ) seems an excellent way to assuage the concerns of both sides, but I am still not convinced you can get both sides interested unless you get leadership in Afghanistan that is more balanced (and I don't necessarily mean the Taliban by that). The Indians don't stand to lose anything major with the status quo continuing - the GoA continues to be strongly pro-India, and India is not hemorrhaging blood or money while denying Pakistan strategic space in Afghanistan.

Stability in Afghanistan to help trade with the CAR's is just a bogey thrown out for Western consumption IMO - how big of a market do the CAR's, even combined, offer India?

The big attraction is gas and oil, but the most feasible means of access for India lie through Pakistan, and Indian dillydallying over the IPI (which admittedly has other dynamics involved because of the US-Iran-123 agreement interplay), despite her spiraling energy requirements, makes me skeptical that India has any interest in participating in any such projects through Pakistan.

Therefore, the goal for India in Afghanistan is entirely a strategic one in terms of having a presence on Pakistan's Western front. Heck, even Salim is essentially arguing that this is what the US in fact wants covertly, to strengthen India's regional position, by dividing Pakistan's area of concerns and potential threats, and thereby creating more space for India vis a vis China, as the US and India start on the road to a new strategic partnership.

Change the status quo to where India does not enjoy the one sided advantage it does currently (in Afghanistan), and there might be incentive for both sides to cooperate to ensure that destabilization does not allow one or the other to gain the advantage again.

the theory is fine but the reality is distant....
1. the turks are involved in their own quagmire of sorts, the kurds so i think they would be quite reluctant.
2. until or un-less there is pashtun representation in the GoA, this will be a non-starter.
3. i am not sure about the "strategic depth" a la zarb-e-momin (Gen.MABeg) was ever a viable strategy for pakistan. giving up pak land to the adversary to fight another day just dosnt make sense, however we should certainly be concerned of india's role viz a vie GoA.

and lastly...we should play a "fair" role in letting afghanistan sort out its problems. we have plently of our own in our backyard to manage.

 

[sunny_aus]

Well, they would certainly tread carefully, but the point here would be that both sides would be equally involved in a sort of 'peacekeeping operation' if you will, outside of India and Pakistan, that would have as its core maintaining stability to deny the other any space for advantage.

Sir, frankly speaking, whether we blame Mr Nehru or Jinnah Saheb, partition of india was a mistake. I have a great respect for Pakistan as a nation but if we have a look on the past 60 years, I believe we might have achieved far more than what we could achieve till now after so many conflicts.

Problems of India and Pakistan can be solved by only these two nations, not by someone from outside. Any harm to the peace process between these two countries will result in loss of lives and money of only south Asians, not to the outsiders. outsiders may only have little fun or benefits of the conflicts between India and Pakistan. Rest, they are hardly gonna make difference between cats,dogs with those who belong to developing countries, no matter which developing country we are talking about.

Middle class number of south asia is just 30%, rest of the 70% can be said to be only poor. Both the countries are responsible for the money they spend on defence for just adjusting their reputation with respect to each other. Also, even if a single soldier of any side loose his life because of the disturbance in peace process, we all will be little or more responsible for that.

 

[fatman17]

Sir, frankly speaking, whether we blame Mr Nehru or Jinnah Saheb, partition of india was a mistake.

my friend you dont want to start this one!

 

[Energon]

I hate to be a party pooper... but would it be asking too much for everyone to return to the topic at hand... discussing a joint Indo-Pak military presence in Afghanistan?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Back to the topic please.