Joint development of 5-generation fighter by Pakistan and China?

[Hyde]

for next 5 years i don't find any 5th Generation project for Pakistan and if our economy is dramatically improved and we have some good budget for our defence and all our political crisis are decreased to minimum

than may be after 2013 we can talk about any Fifth Generation joint Venture with China or join them in JXX or a completely new Fifth Generation project.... and before almost 150 JF-17s are there in our inventory i don't find PAF being involved in any other project however we can initiate with some things like Joint Ventures for Avionics, Radars or any other part of the aircraft that may help us build Fifth Generation Aircraft

JF-17 was completely a different story where i believe 20% of the work had already been done when Pakistan joined them in the project and China had acquired technology through various resources to make this Aircraft dream come true and they had indeginous 3rd Generation aircrafts like F-7 and other "J" Series aircrafts

but for fifth generation i believe they will have to start from Step one again and first acquire some stealth technology in different sections of the aircraft and when they have like 20-30% of the aircraft technology ready then only Pakistan can jump in and start learning from the R&D Projects held by China

so i believe only 5th Generation project is possible after 2015 or some possible collaboration between both countries may start after 2013/14

PAF already has several projects with them in first we need to complete them before we can go for another major project

by 2015 PAF will have completed

150 JF-17s
36 J10A/B
AWACS

and some other projects that involves China

so after that we will focus on future which will mean either 4.5 or a Fifth Generation Aircraft with the complete transfer of Technology

Other countries that have been busy in making a fifth generation aircraft has invested around 30 billion in their projects and if Pakistan has to join such project it will not be possible for us to invest even 5 billion dollars

so it's better we wait until we can even hope for such a project

 

[maverick1977]

Pakistan should work on powerful engine for JF17 to give it supercruise without afterburners and AESA radar.

is there a away Pakistani AWAC can use missile armed JF17 and using its radar to give firing solution to JF17 and fire a missile. That way JF17 can turn off its radar and stay undetected ? i am sure we need RAM coating and composites to JF17 undetectable by another radar. That will be a great surproise to any combat group in the vicinity, a surprise element for SEAD opeartion as well...

1) power engine suerpcruise, i hope JF17 structure will not cause limitation.
2) AESA
3) Composites and RAM coating...

 

[qsaark]

Good economy or not, Pakistani engineers and designers can still be (and perhaps they already are) involved in the project. They can have a very useful intellectual contribution.

is there a away Pakistani AWAC can use missile armed JF17 and using its radar to give firing solution to JF17 and fire a missile. That way JF17 can turn off its radar and stay undetected ?

Yes, technically it is possible. All they need is a data link established between the AWACS and the missile launcing aircraft. This is called AWACS-assisted BVR. F-22 is capable of doing this with the help of AWACS. However I am afraid, PAF would have to wait till they get Chinese AWACS to put something like this into practice.

 

[mean_bird]

I think more than economy, our engineers technical contribution, etc .... our cooperation would be based on bilateral strategic relationship. And as I mentioned earlier, one doesn't have to be a JF-17 style investor or contribute at an equal share.

Instead of repeating myself, I will just quote it.

I think that is a very good and valid question (no doubt it comes from a think tank member ). Here's my 2 cents:

1. Financial Aspect:
Definitely, such projects would cost quite high....in billions of $$. However, the project is spread over a long period of time so the burden in any given financial year is a fraction of the total cost (which is still quite high). But then again, we won't be participating in the way we did in the JF-17 project (i.e. 50-50 financing).
If we look at the JSF style consortium, different countries have different levels of investment. Taking the example of Turkey, which is part of the consortium, will only provide $175 million fund for the R&D of the project but it is a customer and will buy the plane thereby increasing the sales. Similarly, Norway will just provide $125million, Netherlands $800million, Italy $1billion, etc.

2. Technological Aspect
As you have correctly pointed out, we hardly could provide any technological edge in the area of aircraft manufacturing that China does not already posses...apart from some ideas, concepts owing to having greater exposure to western technology.

In addition to that, we hardly have any industrial base either that we could provide like composite materials, electronics, or other materials that would be needed for a stealth plane.

However, one thing I wouldn't rule out is that we sometimes underestimate our people and our potential. In this effect, I would not rule out or, to put it in a better way, I strongly believe that we can provide "some people" ( individuals or small teams) with very high level of expertise that are second to none and could compete anywhere and at all levels. So, in this effect, we could provide some (albeit small) technological input that could speed up the project.

3. Security and High-Tech Issue
Just as in the JSF program....Access to tech is quite limited and apart from England, most other countries would not have any significant access to the "high-tech" technology. Even UK would have its limits.

Even in case of the PAK-FA, India's role is extremely limited and they aren't being made part of the entire design process.

I believe the amount of involvement will depend, not only on the technical ability, but also on the amount of financial contribution. Obviously, Pakistan would not be able to fund 50% of the project, given our economic condition. Besides, we are quite new in this industry and are still trying to digest the technologies involved in the JF-17 project to think of any further in the near future.

4. Other factors
While our financial and technical contribution would be limited, there are other factors that would make us a strong candidate in any such project. Notable among them are obviously our time-tested friendship but more importantly our strategic relationship.

Moreover, even if we buy one or two sqdrns of this plane, that would mean more sales for the project. Just like Turkey will have meager investment but is a strategic NATO partner and it would eventually contribute to sales, thus lowering the price and contributing to more business.

IMHO, there are more than one option currently available to lots of countries , in the form of consortia, to go for a next generation fighter. Also, with the economic situation it would be more practical for countries to work together on such projects.

Therefore, I see a very strong possibility (whose reasons I have provided) that such a collaboration not only could but actually would take place especially since JXX isn't actually expected to be something that will outclass the Raptor.

P.S Its important to note a fact for future discussion in this thread that Russia has reportedly refused to include a clause in the contract with India for the PAK-FA project, that deny Russia transferring the technology involved to China.

 

[lmjiao]

How do you define a 4th/5th generation engine? There are a still a few 4th generation fighters out there that are using engine derivatives from the 50/60s



Agreed. With regards to engine technology and avionics in particular, In my opinion China is 20 years behind the West. It speaks volumes when the PAF has opted for western engines/avionics whenever it's had the oppurtunity on it's aircraft.



That's the Chinese propaganda machine at work. I'll believe it when I see it. There's a lot more to jet engine design than just compressors and turbines.

Hi,imiakhtar.

With all due respect.

Tought disagree, I'm not surprised to see your opinion.

Since you said "I'll believe it when I see it", you will have no oppotuinity to confirm these facts, because the Chinese government is not ready to make them public.

As for another topic you have refered, the Human Rights, that's what you can see it for your self. There are many westerners here in China, including people from the UK, who have been living in China for a long time, when talking with them, I found their opinions about China AND her human rights, is different from yours.

So, if you want to see the Chinese Human Right for yourself, welcome to China!

 

[lmjiao]

To all pakistan friends:

I have read all the replies in this thread, Thank you for your support and confidence about China.

We may never overlook the fact that JF-17 and J-10 are equipped with Russian engines untill now. No one should deny the fact that China is still behind the western countries in Jet engines.

However, time will prove everything.

In every field, we are making breakthough. We are producing fighters, we are expanding fleets, we are saling tanks, we are sending up spaceships.

Cooperation between Pakistan and China has proved that trust and friendship will bring everyone a better future.

Best wishes for you all.

 

[gaurysh]

Presently US is feeling the pinch to manufacture its 5th gen aircraft because of its cost... Its immposible to have a 5th gen aircraft for PAF even in next 15-20 years.. with current financial crisis no point in discussing this

 

[Munir]

Presently US is feeling the pinch to manufacture its 5th gen aircraft because of its cost... Its immposible to have a 5th gen aircraft for PAF even in next 15-20 years.. with current financial crisis no point in discussing this

We even got JF17 and J10 on soft loans and we are busy with next level... With the history of failed indigenous projects and even worser bought projects from other nations we can indeed skip everything and still win with two hands down. Indian economy will face the crises in a few months, Pakistan is less depending...

 

[gaurysh]

We even got JF17 and J10 on soft loans and we are busy with next level... With the history of failed indigenous projects and even worser bought projects from other nations we can indeed skip everything and still win with two hands down. Indian economy will face the crises in a few months, Pakistan is less depending...

Don look too much over your shoulder... Indian economy is far ressiliant to global crisis than u think... pls think of your own crisis

 

[Hasnain2009]

We are suffering bcoz of political un stability and huge spendings on war of terror!!! Now we are coming back to stability and we will have gud growth rate in 2010, and every one knows pakistan is less dependent, bcoz pakistan does not have huge trade with other countries, and india have that trade!!

 

[gaurysh]

We are suffering bcoz of political un stability and huge spendings on war of terror!!! Now we are coming back to stability and we will have gud growth rate in 2010, and every one knows pakistan is less dependent, bcoz pakistan does not have huge trade with other countries, and india have that trade!!

Those spendings have been compensated by US

 

[Hasnain2009]

Business Recorder [Pakistan's First Financial Daily]

ISLAMABAD (January 17 2009): Pakistan suffered loss of Rs 2080 billion in 'War on Terror' from 2004-05 to 2008-09, Pakistan's Finance Ministry said in a recently released document. 'The estimated cost of the 'War on Terror' to Pakistan was around Rs 484 billion during FY 2007/08.

This cost is projected to increase to Rs 678 billion during FY 2008/09,' Poverty Reduction Strategy Papers-II, a paper released by the Finance Ministry said. Pakistan's participation in the anti-terrorism campaign has led to massive unemployment in the affected regions.

Frequent bombings, worsening law and order situation and displacement of the local population, have taken a toll on the socio-economic fabric of the country. The paper plans to spend Rs 6341 billion in next five years to alleviate poverty (pro-poor expenditures) in the country starting with Rs 790 billion and Rs 991 billion in 2008-09 and 2009-10 to Rs 1850 billion in 2012-013.

The Ministry also envisaged a growth rate of 3.4 percent this year and going forward, it would achieve 5percent and 5.5percent in next two consecutive years ultimately reaching 7percent in 2012-13. Inflation rate would be brought at 23 percent this year and would be gradually reduced to 13 percent next year then 7 percent and touching 5 percent in 2012-13, the document estimated.

Nominal GDP would be $163 billion in 2008-09 and $171 billion in 2009-10 and will be reaching $217 billion in 2012-13. 'The macroeconomic stabilisation is, unfortunately, likely to slow down the economic growth, cause unemployment and push poverty rate up in the short run.

Therefore, the central element in the government's strategy is to protect the poor and vulnerable from the adverse effects of the adjustment by increasing the allocations for social safety nets,' the PRSP-II said. Further, the paper aimed at achieving 3.9percent of budget deficit in 2008-09 and to bring it down to 3percent next year and bringing it to 2 percent by 2012-13.

Net lending from central bank would be eliminated from the current fiscal year onwards. The country also plans to fix the trade deficit between $12-13 billion from 2008-09 to 2012-13. Current account deficit would be brought down to $8 billion from over $10 billion at present.

In addition, Forex reserves would be improved from $8.6 billion in 2008-09 to $14.5 billion in 2012-13. As per the government's estimate of power generation from various sources, country would add 7880 MW electricity in its existing capacity of 19,540 MW by 2010 and then would add 20,120 MW by 2015 making a total of 47,540 MW. The country would have 110,760 MW capacity by the end of 2025 and 162,590 MW by 2030.

'In order to meet the additional power generation requirement of 143,310 MW during 2005-2030, an investment of about $150 billion will be required,' the document stated. Furthermore, the average government investment per year is planned at $2billion, with the balance of $4billion per year financed through international development agencies and the private sector through BOT projects and public-prrivate partnership,' it added. 'The country is likely to receive $4.026 billion investment in 18 private sector projects for producing electricity,' the paper concluded.

 

[Hasnain2009]

Those spendings have been compensated by US

'The estimated cost of the 'War on Terror' to Pakistan was around Rs 484 billion during FY 2007/08!!

Rs 484bn makes $8bn, if we consider the exchange rates of 2007!!
Do you really think USA provided us $8bn in single year??

 

[gaurysh]

'The estimated cost of the 'War on Terror' to Pakistan was around Rs 484 billion during FY 2007/08!!

Rs 484bn makes $8bn, if we consider the exchange rates of 2007!!
Do you really think USA provided us $8bn in single year??

UR official figures say so but is this money really spent at ground level???.. as far as result goes the result of WOT in almost nil..

IF that much amount has been spent by your govt y is it difficult for your govt and army to get rid of terrorism?????

 

[Hasnain2009]

Bcoz USA is targeting the civilians of Pakistan, so they are turning into militants, pakistan army always give them target to attack but they never heard of pakistan army and not atttack the true millitants!! So we have some difficulties, and another thing is that many countries who are enemy of pakistan, are funding these terrorists, so they are very powerfull!!