Joint development of 5-generation fighter by Pakistan and China?

[Luftwaffe]

two possibilities China might be working or just have started to work on a EF2000 like project and JSF-F22 like project instead of both stealth.

 

[araz]

has anyone thought of what we can offer on a project like this? We are financially bankrupt. It is unlikely that this situation will improve in the near future. Our knowledge base is limited and even there i dont think we can add anything to what the Chinese already know. So what would we do to entice the chinese into including us in their top secret and pride and joy programme?
Just loooking for some answers>
WaSalam
Araz

 

[mean_bird]

has anyone thought of what we can offer on a project like this? We are financially bankrupt. It is unlikely that this situation will improve in the near future. Our knowledge base is limited and even there i dont think we can add anything to what the Chinese already know. So what would we do to entice the chinese into including us in their top secret and pride and joy programme?
Just loooking for some answers>
WaSalam
Araz

I think that is a very good and valid question (no doubt it comes from a think tank member ). Here's my 2 cents:

1. Financial Aspect:
Definitely, such projects would cost quite high....in billions of $$. However, the project is spread over a long period of time so the burden in any given financial year is a fraction of the total cost (which is still quite high). But then again, we won't be participating in the way we did in the JF-17 project (i.e. 50-50 financing).
If we look at the JSF style consortium, different countries have different levels of investment. Taking the example of Turkey, which is part of the consortium, will only provide $175 million fund for the R&D of the project but it is a customer and will buy the plane thereby increasing the sales. Similarly, Norway will just provide $125million, Netherlands $800million, Italy $1billion, etc.

2. Technological Aspect
As you have correctly pointed out, we hardly could provide any technological edge in the area of aircraft manufacturing that China does not already posses...apart from some ideas, concepts owing to having greater exposure to western technology.

In addition to that, we hardly have any industrial base either that we could provide like composite materials, electronics, or other materials that would be needed for a stealth plane.

However, one thing I wouldn't rule out is that we sometimes underestimate our people and our potential. In this effect, I would not rule out or, to put it in a better way, I strongly believe that we can provide "some people" ( individuals or small teams) with very high level of expertise that are second to none and could compete anywhere and at all levels. So, in this effect, we could provide some (albeit small) technological input that could speed up the project.

3. Security and High-Tech Issue
Just as in the JSF program....Access to tech is quite limited and apart from England, most other countries would not have any significant access to the "high-tech" technology. Even UK would have its limits.

Even in case of the PAK-FA, India's role is extremely limited and they aren't being made part of the entire design process.

I believe the amount of involvement will depend, not only on the technical ability, but also on the amount of financial contribution. Obviously, Pakistan would not be able to fund 50% of the project, given our economic condition. Besides, we are quite new in this industry and are still trying to digest the technologies involved in the JF-17 project to think of any further in the near future.

4. Other factors
While our financial and technical contribution would be limited, there are other factors that would make us a strong candidate in any such project. Notable among them are obviously our time-tested friendship but more importantly our strategic relationship.

Moreover, even if we buy one or two sqdrns of this plane, that would mean more sales for the project. Just like Turkey will have meager investment but is a strategic NATO partner and it would eventually contribute to sales, thus lowering the price and contributing to more business.

IMHO, there are more than one option currently available to lots of countries , in the form of consortia, to go for a next generation fighter. Also, with the economic situation it would be more practical for countries to work together on such projects.

Therefore, I see a very strong possibility (whose reasons I have provided) that such a collaboration not only could but actually would take place especially since JXX isn't actually expected to be something that will outclass the Raptor.

P.S Its important to note a fact for future discussion in this thread that Russia has reportedly refused to include a clause in the contract with India for the PAK-FA project, that deny Russia transferring the technology involved to China.

 

[lmjiao]

Lol. Its a no-go. China is dependent on Russia for engines till date among numerous other things. And Russia doesnt export China its most sensitive technology. Only after Russia starts using its FGFA will there be export of items to China.

I am sorry that I have to deny some of your opinions.

We DID depend on Russian engines, but in the latest 4-th generation fighter J-10b, Taihang has been proved to be a success after years of impovement, according to the official TV station CCTV_7.

Untill now, it is sure that China has fully aquired the design and manufacture of 4-th generation fighter, INCLUDING it's engine.

 

[lmjiao]

India+USA+Israel's story is on its ultimate end, politicaly & economicly!
Pakistan+China+Russia is the new ultimate future, working on the 5th gen plane
just to see the reactions here from you?

Untill now, Russia has offered many times the intention to develop the 5th gen plane together, however, China return no sign of agreement since Chinese goverment determined to develop this fighter with Chinese engines.

So, I don't see the possibility that Russia and China will work together on the 5th gen plane.

But everything can happen between China and Pakistan since have a history of successful cooperation, and Pakistan Air Force are more familiar to Chinese planes.

 

[lmjiao]

I think that is a very good and valid question (no doubt it comes from a think tank member ). Here's my 2 cents:

1. Financial Aspect:
Definitely, such projects would cost quite high....in billions of $$. However, the project is spread over a long period of time so the burden in any given financial year is a fraction of the total cost (which is still quite high). But then again, we won't be participating in the way we did in the JF-17 project (i.e. 50-50 financing).
If we look at the JSF style consortium, different countries have different levels of investment. Taking the example of Turkey, which is part of the consortium, will only provide $175 million fund for the R&D of the project but it is a customer and will buy the plane thereby increasing the sales. Similarly, Norway will just provide $125million, Netherlands $800million, Italy $1billion, etc.

2. Technological Aspect
As you have correctly pointed out, we hardly could provide any technological edge in the area of aircraft manufacturing that China does not already posses...apart from some ideas, concepts owing to having greater exposure to western technology.

In addition to that, we hardly have any industrial base either that we could provide like composite materials, electronics, or other materials that would be needed for a stealth plane.

However, one thing I wouldn't rule out is that we sometimes underestimate our people and our potential. In this effect, I would not rule out or, to put it in a better way, I strongly believe that we can provide "some people" ( individuals or small teams) with very high level of expertise that are second to none and could compete anywhere and at all levels. So, in this effect, we could provide some (albeit small) technological input that could speed up the project.

3. Security and High-Tech Issue
Just as in the JSF program....Access to tech is quite limited and apart from England, most other countries would not have any significant access to the "high-tech" technology. Even UK would have its limits.

Even in case of the PAK-FA, India's role is extremely limited and they aren't being made part of the entire design process.

I believe the amount of involvement will depend, not only on the technical ability, but also on the amount of financial contribution. Obviously, Pakistan would not be able to fund 50% of the project, given our economic condition. Besides, we are quite new in this industry and are still trying to digest the technologies involved in the JF-17 project to think of any further in the near future.

4. Other factors
While our financial and technical contribution would be limited, there are other factors that would make us a strong candidate in any such project. Notable among them are obviously our time-tested friendship but more importantly our strategic relationship.

Moreover, even if we buy one or two sqdrns of this plane, that would mean more sales for the project. Just like Turkey will have meager investment but is a strategic NATO partner and it would eventually contribute to sales, thus lowering the price and contributing to more business.

IMHO, there are more than one option currently available to lots of countries , in the form of consortia, to go for a next generation fighter. Also, with the economic situation it would be more practical for countries to work together on such projects.

Therefore, I see a very strong possibility (whose reasons I have provided) that such a collaboration not only could but actually would take place especially since JXX isn't actually expected to be something that will outclass the Raptor.

P.S Its important to note a fact for future discussion in this thread that Russia has reportedly refused to include a clause in the contract with India for the PAK-FA project, that deny Russia transferring the technology involved to China.

Thanks very much for your patient reply.

As for technological aspect, since it will take long time before the 5th plane put into manufaction, so Pakistan should already get many experience in 4th Gen Fighter Production by the manufaction of 150 or more JF-17. So in my opinion, in about 2015 or later, Pakistan will have the ability to manufact at least part of the fighters, no matter it is 4th or 5th generation.

Be confident about the future.

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

At this time---the biggest concern for the PAF is to have enough qualified pilots and systems personale for its Jf 17, the BLK 52 and F 16 MLU's the FC 20's the eyerie the chinese awacs coming---PAF will have its hands full to integrate all these new birds into its arsenal in the shortest possible time---the PAF has a full agenda for the next few years.

There are too many new items being introduced in a very short time at the same time.

 

[pakpower]

Hi Salam to All well Said Mr. I think Pakistan should be able to join some sort of partnership with China with this Stealth Jet Project. In this way both the countries will benefit a lot, just like the other projects in which China is helping Pakistan a lot in every field so this should be no big deal for China to get Pakistan on board for this Stealth Project.

Pakistan will get this project partnership very easily.

Hoping for that to happened............

 

[ejaz007]

has anyone thought of what we can offer on a project like this? We are financially bankrupt. It is unlikely that this situation will improve in the near future. Our knowledge base is limited and even there i dont think we can add anything to what the Chinese already know. So what would we do to entice the chinese into including us in their top secret and pride and joy programme?
Just loooking for some answers>
WaSalam
Araz

With all due respect.

We are in financial crisis as is the rest of the world. However we are by no means bankrupt.

Rememebr we still have around 10.3 billion USD.

 

[araz]

With all due respect.

We are in financial crisis as is the rest of the world. However we are by no means bankrupt.

Rememebr we still have around 10.3 billion USD.

Brother Ejaz
ASAK
If my information is correct most of it is IMF money borrowed at an interest of 4.3%, which is about what i am paying for my mortgage. In international terms this is really high. I repeat that at the moment we are bankrupt in both financial and moral terms. given the situation in the world and our inept governance, we are unlikely to change this in the near future.
WaSalam
Araz

 

[batmannow]

Brother Ejaz
ASAK
If my information is correct most of it is IMF money borrowed at an interest of 4.3%, which is about what i am paying for my mortgage. In international terms this is really high. I repeat that at the moment we are bankrupt in both financial and moral terms. given the situation in the world and our inept governance, we are unlikely to change this in the near future.
WaSalam
Araz

my very dear , araz; sir
when was the last time we were in good situation. i guss we never had a good times regurding economy!
so looking at our , account book, will never going to make us satisfyied?

but the dangers , what pakistan is facing are more real, what ever , however, we had to do, what ever it takes?

 

[guy that will be banned]

As opposed to China, Russia and Pakistan- beacons of human rights and pacifism? It's good to hear that prejudice and hypocrisy have once and for all freed themselves of the cumbersome shackles of reality.

 

[Bull]

Even if Pakistan cant contribute anything to this project, still it should be considered as a good development. Chineese never have stopped from giving you stuff on 'soft loans'. So let them develop it and you can have it when you are ready.

 

[imiakhtar]

After Taihang, China has fully aquired the design and production of 4th generation fighter engin, a 5th generation engin is also in development now.

How do you define a 4th/5th generation engine? There are a still a few 4th generation fighters out there that are using engine derivatives from the 50/60s

Lol. Its a no-go. China is dependent on Russia for engines till date among numerous other things. And Russia doesnt export China its most sensitive technology.

Agreed. With regards to engine technology and avionics in particular, In my opinion China is 20 years behind the West. It speaks volumes when the PAF has opted for western engines/avionics whenever it's had the oppurtunity on it's aircraft.

I am sorry that I have to deny some of your opinions.

We DID depend on Russian engines, but in the latest 4-th generation fighter J-10b, Taihang has been proved to be a success after years of impovement, according to the official TV station CCTV_7.

Untill now, it is sure that China has fully aquired the design and manufacture of 4-th generation fighter, INCLUDING it's engine.

That's the Chinese propaganda machine at work. I'll believe it when I see it. There's a lot more to jet engine design than just compressors and turbines.

 

[batmannow]

How do you define a 4th/5th generation engine? There are a still a few 4th generation fighters out there that are using engine derivatives from the 50/60s



Agreed. With regards to engine technology and avionics in particular, In my opinion China is 20 years behind the West. It speaks volumes when the PAF has opted for western engines/avionics whenever it's had the oppurtunity on it's aircraft.



That's the Chinese propaganda machine at work. I'll believe it when I see it. There's a lot more to jet engine design than just compressors and turbines.

imiakhtar;sir
here we go again, "typical english coloniel hypocracy" with typical english biasness towards a graet asian nation?

I'll believe it when I see it
i guss, even you , see it but you are not going to belive it, because of your typical english biasness & english coloniel hypocracy"

if they can go on the moon,so why cant they , make a 5 .gen fighter jet or its engine?